Hi everyone
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Just curious.
How to join those Buddhism Retreat where one can learn alll about Buddhism in a condense one month? -
You staying in Singapore right? Not too sure about this, hope other forumers can help you out.Originally posted by viciouskitty74:Just curious.
How to join those Buddhism Retreat where one can learn alll about Buddhism in a condense one month?
I don't think there is "all about buddhism" retreats, maybe basic courses etc. There are a lot of classes of those. It is impossible to learn "all about buddhism" in one month. It can't even be learnt in years or a lifetime... haha -
Isn't christianity perfect for reaching what jon experienced?
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Ask in EHOriginally posted by Cenarious:Isn't christianity perfect for reaching what jon experienced?
Just kidding. Why are you asking this? And how would we know? We're not Christians. And I seriously doubt what most Churches teach. Maybe certain traditions like the Trappist of Roman Catholics are closer.
According to Bernadette Roberts, she couldn't find her experience in Christian literature, and even St. John the Cross is only "halfway there". The Dark Night of the Spirit/transforming union/mystical marriage is often being described as the death of the little egoic self, and then falling into the "Source"/Atman-Brahman and therefore the attachment to the transcendental self is not dissolved, much less the realisation of No-Self as a dharma seal. No-Self as dharma seal, Truth, not as a stage, not merely as non-ego, is not taught in other religions. So the difference between Buddhism and most other religions is that Buddhism understands no-self as a dharma seal, not merely the dissolving of ego. The closest is Meister Eckhart according to her. I discussed about Bernadette Roberts with Thusness more than a year ago... and according to him, even Bernadette Roberts is not really "there" yet.
Furthermore, the practise of Mindfulness is perculiar to Buddhism, and Thusness says this is an ingenius way to enlightenment. It is not taught in other contemplative path.
(Update: Thusness told me Bernadette Roberts is at the 'No Witness' stage (i.e Stage 5), but have not realised conditioned arising and impermanence.)
Bernadette Roberts, a Christian mystic, says:
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htmBernadette: I think it may be too late for me to ever have a good understanding of how other religions make this passage. If you are not surrendering your whole being, your very consciousness, to a loved and trusted personal God, then what are you surrendering it to? Or why surrender it at all? Loss of ego, loss of self, is just a by-product of this surrender; it is not the true goal, not an end in itself. Perhaps this is also the view of Mahayana Buddhism, where the goal is to save all sentient beings from suffering, and where loss of ego, loss of self, is seen as a means to a greater end. This view is very much in keeping with the Christian desire to save all souls. As I see it, without a personal God, the Buddhist must have a much stronger faith in the "unconditioned and unbegotten" than is required of the Christian contemplative, who experiences the passage as a divine doing, and in no way a self-doing.
Actually, I met up with Buddhism only at the end of my journey, after the no-self experience. Since I knew that this experience was not articulated in our contemplative literature, I went to the library to see if it could be found in the Eastern Religions. It did not take me long to realize that I would not find it in the Hindu tradition, where, as I see it, the final state is equivalent to the Christian experience of oneness or transforming union. If a Hindu had what I call the no-self experience, it would be the sudden, unexpected disappearance of the Atman-Brahman, the divine Self in the "cave of the heart", and the disappearance of the cave as well. It would be the ending of God-consciousness, or transcendental consciousness - that seemingly bottomless experience of "being", "consciousness", and "bliss" that articulates the state of oneness. To regard this ending as the falling away of the ego is a grave error; ego must fall away before the state of oneness can be realized. The no-self experience is the falling away of this previously realized transcendent state.
Initially, when I looked into Buddhism, I did not find the experience of no-self there either; yet I intuited that it had to be there. The falling away of the ego is common to both Hinduism and Buddhism. Therefore, it would not account for the fact that Buddhism became a separate religion, nor would it account for the Buddhist's insistence on no eternal Self - be it divine, individual or the two in one. I felt that the key difference between these two religions was the no-self experience, the falling away of the true Self, Atman-Brahman. Unfortunately, what most Buddhist authors define as the no-self experience is actually the no-ego experience. The cessation of clinging, craving, desire, the passions, etc., and the ensuing state of imperturbable peace and joy articulates the egoless state of oneness; it does not, however, articulate the no-self experience or the dimension beyond. Unless we clearly distinguish between these two very different experiences, we only confuse them, with the inevitable result that the true no-self experience becomes lost. If we think the falling away of the ego, with its ensuing transformation and oneness, is the no-self experience, then what shall we call the much further experience when this egoless oneness falls away? In actual experience there is only one thing to call it, the "no-self experience"; it lends itself to no other possible articulation.
Initially, I gave up looking for this experience in the Buddhist literature. Four years later, however, I came across two lines attributed to Buddha describing his enlightenment experience. Referring to self as a house, he said, "All thy rafters are broken now, the ridgepole is destroyed." And there it was - the disappearance of the center, the ridgepole; without it, there can be no house, no self. When I read these lines, it was as if an arrow launched at the beginning of time had suddenly hit a bulls-eye. It was a remarkable find. These lines are not a piece of philosophy, but an experiential account, and without the experiential account we really have nothing to go on. In the same verse he says, "Again a house thou shall not build," clearly distinguishing this experience from the falling away of the ego-center, after which a new, transformed self is built around a "true center," a sturdy, balanced ridgepole.
As a Christian, I saw the no-self experience as the true nature of Christ's death, the movement beyond even is oneness with the divine, the movement from God to Godhead. Though not articulated in contemplative literature, Christ dramatized this experience on the cross for all ages to see and ponder. Where Buddha described the experience, Christ manifested it without words; yet they both make the same statement and reveal the same truth - that ultimately, eternal life is beyond self or consciousness. After one has seen it manifested or heard it said, the only thing left is to experience it. -
Hi Cenarious,
Isn't christianity perfect for reaching what jon experienced?
Not really.
You probably think that because I use christian terms like "god".
But in fact all religions and all philosophies use concepts.
There comes a time when you have to let go of all concepts, all thoughts, all teachings and go within...
If you want to be completely free, you have to let go of all the scaffolding, let go of all you're clinging to.
And be completely open to the present moment.
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the experience i like to share would summarise like this..
when i was looking at the universe, it looked back.
it was such a blissful moment my eyes were in tears.. -
Was there still 'you' when them universe looked back? How did you get the impression the universe looked back?Originally posted by geforce:the experience i like to share would summarise like this..
when i was looking at the universe, it looked back.
it was such a blissful moment my eyes were in tears.. -
Originally posted by JonLS:
Agree.
Hi Cenarious,
[b]
Not really.
You probably think that because I use christian terms like "god".
But in fact all religions and all philosophies use concepts.
There comes a time when you have to let go of all concepts, all thoughts, all teachings and go within...
If you want to be completely free, you have to let go of all the scaffolding, let go of all you're clinging to.
And be completely open to the present moment. [/b]
Just like Buddhism the Dharma represents the discoveries of Buddha and the discoveries of other enlightened people. Dharma is not Dogma, but a raft designed to get us to the other side, as if we were crossing a river. Dharma is designed to fit to us and our personal needs, and then be discarded, because the end goal of Buddhism, is a state of non-attachment, called Nirvana, or Enlightenment.(We don't need to carry the raft along with us after crossing to the other side
)
Btw thanks for sharing ur experience with us -
this happen too fast, like a fraction of a sec just as i close my eyes to sleep. i was looking at space, and lots of stars, it wasnt just like a typical scene from a sci-fi movie, it was so vast. instantly, all this space and stars,solar systems, suddenly just consolidate together with me. its like u feel one with the universe.
it totally wowed me , i will never forget this special experience.. -
I am not sure whether this is what you experience... But at some point if you are mindful and the mind is free from thoughts, the dualistic bond that creates an impression of separation, 'you' and 'the world' dissolve. Suddenly it doesn't feel like you are here, looking at the world out there. Instead, you feel like you BECOME the looking, you are the universe, you are the tree, you are the seeing and the seen. Another way of putting it.. It is not you who sees, the universe self-sees. Things become vivid and clear, there is clarity in it, and you are that... The mountains and the universe is closer than your skin. When this happened to me, there is also a blissful 'energy' arising, like in meditative jhanas. But anyway that is not enlightenment, because it is not realising our buddha nature, in other words it is an 'experience' of no-self yet the nature of no-self and awareness is not understood. Enlightenment is not an experience that comes and go.Originally posted by geforce:this happen too fast, like a fraction of a sec just as i close my eyes to sleep. i was looking at space, and lots of stars, it wasnt just like a typical scene from a sci-fi movie, it was so vast. instantly, all this space and stars,solar systems, suddenly just consolidate together with me. its like u feel one with the universe.
it totally wowed me , i will never forget this special experience.. -
Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
it's not dogma if you experience it for yourself
Agree.
Just like Buddhism the Dharma represents the discoveries of Buddha and the discoveries of other enlightened people. Dharma is not Dogma, but a raft designed to get us to the other side, as if we were crossing a river. Dharma is designed to fit to us and our personal needs, and [b]then be discarded, because the end goal of Buddhism, is a state of non-attachment, called Nirvana, or Enlightenment.(We don't need to carry the raft along with us after crossing to the other side )
Btw thanks for sharing ur experience with us
[/b]
if you ask any christian about God they will describe to you exactly what these people are talking about. -
In fact it is not just an experience. Experiences come and go, has a beginning and an ending. Enlightenment is the realisation of the ever-present, and that there is really nothing to attain. (which reminds me what is dun4 wu4, a famous zen master replied dun4 is instantaneously cut off wandering thoughts, wu4 is realising there is nothing to attain or experience) And most certainly, God cannot be an object of experience. Any states that is experienced is not it. If a christian tells you he experienced god, it is probably not it. Some christians describe some ecstatic state, even "jhana" like rupture is not it. And definately not an emotional state. Even if it is an experience of unity... If it is just an 'experience' it is not it. Any experience is fleeting. I believe the bible said something like nobody will and has ever seen the face of god. Subject can never be an object of observation. If god can be experienced, who is the experiencer? If a christian truly knows this, that would be interesting and you can ask him to post here.Originally posted by Cenarious:it's not dogma if you experience it for yourself
if you ask any christian about God they will describe to you exactly what these people are talking about.
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realisations also come and go. once you get reborn you still have to practise from the start again dont you? although take a shorter time.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In fact it is not just an experience. Experiences come and go, has a beginning and an ending. Enlightenment is the realisation of the ever-present, and that there is really nothing to attain. (which reminds me what is dun4 wu4, a famous zen master replied dun4 is instantaneously cut off wandering thoughts, wu4 is realising there is nothing to attain or experience) And most certainly, God cannot be an object of experience. Any states that is experienced is not it. If a christian tells you he experienced god, it is probably not it. Some christians describe some ecstatic state, even "jhana" like rupture is not it. And definately not an emotional state. Even if it is an experience of unity... If it is just an 'experience' it is not it. Any experience is fleeting. I believe the bible said something like nobody will and has ever seen the face of god. Subject can never be an object of observation. If god can be experienced, who is the experiencer? If a christian truly knows this, that would be interesting and you can ask him to post here. -
I believe the bible said something like nobody will and has ever seen the face of god.
Hi,
I have posted a thread on my forums called "sitting on the edge of infinity".
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/viewtopic.php?t=1057
This is essentially a thread about meeting God, the supreme presence in the center of my being.
I don't know how else to explain the experience I am having.
It is absolutely overwhelming and completely all encompassing.
I am sharing this with you so that you may remain open to the possibility of such an encounter.
This is my attempt to explain what I experienced:What we are in our essence, in the center of our being, is absolute presence, absolute emptiness, absolute bliss.
This sounds almost incomprehensible to me and I am the one having the experience!!!
Don't settle for anything less than the absolute Truth of your being.
So I'm not sure I can communicate this properly.
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I believe the bible said something like nobody will and has ever seen the face of god.
means no one with selves can see God, or dont look for forms -
sometimes i think buddha only didnt teach christianity because all the brahmanism people were claiming to be Gods
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then she needs to surrender more to God. mindfulness comes naturally when you have an omniscient and omnipresent God.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ask in EH Laughing Laughing Laughing
Just kidding. Why are you asking this? And how would we know? We're not Christians. And I seriously doubt what most Churches teach. Maybe certain traditions like the Trappist of Roman Catholics are closer.
According to Bernadette Roberts, she couldn't find her experience in Christian literature, and even St. John the Cross is only "halfway there". The Dark Night of the Spirit/transforming union/mystical marriage is often being described as the death of the little egoic self, and then falling into the "Source"/Atman-Brahman and therefore the attachment to the transcendental self is not dissolved, much less the realisation of No-Self as a dharma seal. No-Self as dharma seal, Truth, not as a stage, not merely as non-ego, is not taught in other religions. So the difference between Buddhism and most other religions is that Buddhism understands no-self as a dharma seal, not merely the dissolving of ego. The closest is Meister Eckhart according to her. I discussed about Bernadette Roberts with Thusness more than a year ago... and according to him, even Bernadette Roberts is not really "there" yet.
Furthermore, the practise of Mindfulness is perculiar to Buddhism, and Thusness says this is an ingenius way to enlightenment. It is not taught in other contemplative path.
(Update: Thusness told me Bernadette Roberts is at the 'No Witness' stage (i.e Stage 5), but have not realised conditioned arising and impermanence.)
Bernadette Roberts, a Christian mystic, says:
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm
and btw is jon experiencing no self? -
Yes, but is it ever-present or only a fleeting state? Is it more of a non-experience than an experience? 'Object consciousness' or 'space consciousness'?Originally posted by JonLS:This sounds almost incomprehensible to me and I am the one having the experience!!!
So I'm not sure I can communicate this properly.
From: Is God A Thing?Originally posted by longchen:Is God a thing?
If God is a thing, then who is the creator of this Being call God?
So can God be a thing? If God can be an object, then it is not the ultimate. Because if it is an object/thing/Being, then who is the creator of this object/thing/Being? -
Ignorance comes and goes. Realisation is simply the absence of ignorance. And it is the realisation that Truth neither comes and goes, it is ever-present. Therefore it is not an experience. Buddha Nature, Truth, is not merely an experience. Whether ignorance may arise later again is not the point here.Originally posted by Cenarious:realisations also come and go. once you get reborn you still have to practise from the start again dont you? although take a shorter time. -
God is also ever-present.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ignorance comes and goes. Realisation is simply the absence of ignorance. And it is the realisation that Truth neither comes and goes, it is ever-present. Therefore it is not an experience. Buddha Nature, Truth, is not merely an experience. Whether ignorance may arise later again is not the point here. -
Huh??Originally posted by Cenarious:sometimes i think buddha only didnt teach christianity because all the brahmanism people were claiming to be Gods -
Whatever you want to call it... what I am concerned is how they describe "experience of God". Most people's description is clearly not there.Originally posted by Cenarious:God is also ever-present. -
Mindfulness in Buddhism is quite different. It is an ingenius way pointing towards luminosity and also no-self. The four foundations of mindfulness, etc, are simply not taught elsewhere. You can search google for more info on that. Anyway I don't understand what you mean by 'when you have an omniscient and omnipresent God'. Again I like to stress what Longchen said, God is not an object.Originally posted by Cenarious:then she needs to surrender more to God. mindfulness comes naturally when you have an omniscient and omnipresent God.
and btw is jon experiencing no self?
Maybe Thusness can elaborate on mindfulness. -
ok i searched the net and it is exactly what i was thinking, so what was the mindfulness you thought that i was saying?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Mindfulness in Buddhism is quite different. It is an ingenius way pointing towards luminosity and also no-self. The four foundations of mindfulness, etc, are simply not taught elsewhere. You can search google for more info on that. Anyway I don't understand what you mean by 'when you have an omniscient and omnipresent God'. God is not an external thing, it is still experienced as an external thing, then you haven't really 'got it'. See what Longchen said.
Maybe Thusness can elaborate on mindfulness.
God is omnipresent. He is both internal and external. He is everywhere you can ever imagine. -
Ok. So what do you mean by 'you have God'? You don't own God right? You need to phrase properly.Originally posted by Cenarious:ok i searched the net and it is exactly what i was thinking, so what was the mindfulness you thought that i was saying?
God is omnipresent. He is both internal and external. He is everywhere you can ever imagine.
I'm not saying you don't understand. Mindfulness is like 'experiencing' clarity in all manifestation, yet no 'experiencer'. By surrendering one will eventually experience that clarity, but why not experience it now. Buddha is more clear on the mindfulness aspect.
'Surrendering' is like surrendering to divine happening, seeings things as happening by divine will, and therefore not becoming attached. One has surrendered to what is. When there is no attachment, then one will also experience clarity. I don't know how much they know about mindfulness so I will not comment further.