Hi everyone
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Thanks, will check that outOriginally posted by JonLS:By the way, my name JonLS is from the book and movie called Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Have you seen the movie?
If not it would be worth renting.
Wonderful story.
Yes dogmatically clinging to any sort of beliefs is not helpful. In Buddhism, it is important that we must test and see for ourselves, and not just blindly accept what was saidOriginally posted by JonLS:I must be honest here and say that the heavy emphasis I see here on these boards with regard to Buddhist beliefs may actually be doing more harm than good for many of you. Not that that is really a problem. There really are no problems. I will finish by that quote again: In Buddhism, we have a saying that the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon itself. (merely a pointer)
A summarised part of the Kalama Sutra,
Kalama Sutra
"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the
spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you
have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do
not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is
written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- the Buddha
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A full version of this sutra can be found here: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/kalama_sutra.htm -
AEN:
Thanks for sharing that big chunk of info. -
no probOriginally posted by yamizi:AEN:
Thanks for sharing that big chunk of info. -
Interesting topic. I have been practising reiki for over two years now. Hi Longchen. Im a reiki 2 practitioner. Saw your past conversation with Oceanus. Are you still at level 2? Im curious. Intend to go for level 3 soon. Cheers!
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Hi JonLS,
Thanks for sharing.Originally posted by JonLS:By the way, my name JonLS is from the book and movie called Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Have you seen the movie?
If not it would be worth renting.
Wonderful story.
Very wise and true.
Another thing I would like to say is that all guidance is coming from within, the only thing necessary is to allow this to happen unimpeded by thought or by a "someone" who thinks he knows better.
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Though there is no 'I', there is karma rolling and karma is itself the same One Reality. Try not to underestimate its implication.
And the very fact that I am still seeking presupposes there is a "problem" and in fact there is a knowing that there is not.
[/b]
My 2 cents. -
I fully agree with u and I believe all will go through the same process. Gripping and seeking is the entirety of the mind. Same manifestation of the one reality. By reacting we re-enforce the gripping unknowningly. This continues till we fully understand the essence of letting the great flux flows uncontrived.Originally posted by longchen:I am now more into the process of 'letting go'... a subtle letting go brought about by spontaneous/intuitive self-recognisition.
What i have noticed is that gripping and seeking is a most prevalent tendency of the human mind... both before and after the first awakening to Presence. In fact, suffering comes from the gripping and seeking...The human mind sticks to any expereinces that it likes and rejects any expereinces that it dislike... both are forms of attachments. So i guess the key is subtle letting go... that is uncontrived.
regards.. just my opinion though -
Lao Tze is such a great sage and over the past 2600 years, it is hard to find enlightened beings that can equal his spiritual wisdom. Tao De Jing is truly deep and profound, there is a lot to learn from it. At a time when there is no Buddha, I believe I will risk everything for his teachings.....
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The mind and thoughts have had a frantic panicky feel to them today. This is not really a problem as there is an overall peace and calm that prevails somehow.
It is a peculiar situation because I watch myself behaving as a person and there is this constant knowing or insight that I am not. It's almost as if the insight is not available to ego/mind, it can't comprehend or benefit from it. I continue to act as a person and everyone else around me continues to reinforce this. The only benefit is that thoughts are no longer taken seriously and suffering is greatly attenuated. I can't say that suffering is over because if I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow there would be a great deal of anxiety and fear emanating from the mind I'm sure.
And that leads up to a question. I have watched Longchen and Thusness give advice to people on these forums, telling them to practice this and that and wonder if you are actually helping them or are you deepening the delusion by treating them as individuals that can make a difference to the outcome of their lives.
Why not be blunt and bold about it: You do not exist. Get over yourself.
Their separateness is constantly reinforced out in the world and it continues here in the forums. Is this a worthwhile way to proceed?
Perhaps all should be reminded that there is actually nothing they can do to help themselves because there is no "one" who can be helped. And there is no "one" who can give advice. You are essentially talking to yourSelf on these boards with the dream of separation overlaid on this reality.
Since I am pure consciousness is there anything wrong with acting like it. What other way shall I act? Shall I pretend that "others" do exist and give them advice on illusory problems? -
I am now more into the process of 'letting go'... a subtle letting go brought about by spontaneous/intuitive self-recognisition.
Longchen,
This sounds very familiar to me and I wonder if my previous post sounds very familiar to you.
I know there may also be a cultural difference here, if you see one, can you elaborate on it. -
Hi JonLS,Originally posted by JonLS:The mind and thoughts have had a frantic panicky feel to them today. This is not really a problem as there is an overall peace and calm that prevails somehow.
It is a peculiar situation because I watch myself behaving as a person and there is this constant knowing or insight that I am not. It's almost as if the insight is not available to ego/mind, it can't comprehend or benefit from it. I continue to act as a person and everyone else around me continues to reinforce this. The only benefit is that thoughts are no longer taken seriously and suffering is greatly attenuated. I can't say that suffering is over because if I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow there would be a great deal of anxiety and fear emanating from the mind I'm sure.
And that leads up to a question. I have watched Longchen and Thusness give advice to people on these forums, telling them to practice this and that and wonder if you are actually helping them or are you deepening the delusion by treating them as individuals that can make a difference to the outcome of their lives.
Why not be blunt and bold about it: You do not exist. Get over yourself.
Their separateness is constantly reinforced out in the world and it continues here in the forums. Is this a worthwhile way to proceed?
Perhaps all should be reminded that there is actually nothing they can do to help themselves because there is no "one" who can be helped. And there is no "one" who can give advice. You are essentially talking to yourSelf on these boards with the dream of separation overlaid on this reality.
Since I am pure consciousness is there anything wrong with acting like it. What other way shall I act? Shall I pretend that "others" do exist and give them advice on illusory problems?
Thanks for sharing.
Yes...living as pure consciousness. This reminds me of my experience 20 years back when I first experience Presence. My experience is that the struggle is unavoidable and necessary. It is not how people reinforced concepts into us but the depth of clarity of what consciousness really is. The experience of 'Pure Consciousness', the Eternal Seer, the Ulitmate Witness or the center of all Source, what is fundamentally wrong that causes all these divisions, split, the sufferings that shouldn't exist in the first place?
Perhaps my deep respect for Buddha is due to his profound insight of no-self and emptiness that helps me to go beyond the bond of the Eternal Witness, the source that causes the split. Mindfulness to me is truly an ingenius technique of allowing us to experience the One reality in a right way. In fact (to me) it is the correct medicine for dissolving the division after the experience of the Eternal Witness. How it dissolves the division between inner/outer reality, subject/object dualism. How by observing the phenomenon existence in a raw and undefined mode can lead one to the clear insight of true non-duality. Not only is there no 'who', there is no 'where' in the realm of pure awareness. This is my personal opinion. -
hi JonLS,Originally posted by JonLS:The mind and thoughts have had a frantic panicky feel to them today. This is not really a problem as there is an overall peace and calm that prevails somehow.
It is a peculiar situation because I watch myself behaving as a person and there is this constant knowing or insight that I am not. It's almost as if the insight is not available to ego/mind, it can't comprehend or benefit from it. I continue to act as a person and everyone else around me continues to reinforce this. The only benefit is that thoughts are no longer taken seriously and suffering is greatly attenuated. I can't say that suffering is over because if I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow there would be a great deal of anxiety and fear emanating from the mind I'm sure.
And that leads up to a question. I have watched Longchen and Thusness give advice to people on these forums, telling them to practice this and that and wonder if you are actually helping them or are you deepening the delusion by treating them as individuals that can make a difference to the outcome of their lives.
Why not be blunt and bold about it: You do not exist. Get over yourself.
Their separateness is constantly reinforced out in the world and it continues here in the forums. Is this a worthwhile way to proceed?
Perhaps all should be reminded that there is actually nothing they can do to help themselves because there is no "one" who can be helped. And there is no "one" who can give advice. You are essentially talking to yourSelf on these boards with the dream of separation overlaid on this reality.
Since I am pure consciousness is there anything wrong with acting like it. What other way shall I act? Shall I pretend that "others" do exist and give them advice on illusory problems?
nice to see new people coming in to share.
i may not be enlightened & wise enough to guide & share with you & others but without any conditional thoughts, i'll still go ahead & let go my piece of mind to share what i got to say.
peacefulness, calmness, panicky or freaky is a state of mind, which i am sure you are aware of that too, aren't you? why is it that you are aware of it or not aware of it?
another question is, why are you still aware of it?
i feel it is not necessary to think too much. not implying to anyone in particular. knowing & experiencing are beyond words to describe yeah. if it is so easily described then isn't the "self" still literally separated from the true moment of flow? being aware & not being aware is the same, right? what are other similar examples? well i agree with what you have expressed so far, mostly. & thank you for the guidance & sharing. it's interesting. it ain't a simple feat to truly realise no self over night. if you have, congratulations..... haha 
even when you do, & for a moment you let go & then shortly later, your mind starts to grip on something new again. why hasn't the lord of ego or illusion left entirely?
there are many out there whom are still unaware that they have got no self to attach to. today's spirit in the corporate, educational or simply livelihood, requires a deep understanding of that zest & passion in your self that you need in order to succeed & excel & survive. this has constantly taught people & instilled into them their ego entities which they feel so associated to.
being bold is a good virtue if in the right way. being blunt is not enough to be able slice off your illusion of self. "you do not exist" is not a complete void. & how to get over an empty space? even for these little thoughts, ego & self is dancing away to the invisible illusioned music.
the forummers here have been very kind & helping in sharing what they have learnt & practiced for the benefit of many whom can get directions & learn to travel on the road to freedom. thanks to you too. how rare. i pay homage to them all & to you too. i enjoy the postings. even if you do have the thoughts of others pretending there are self to guide, then it is also a self giving you a clue to have perceptions & judgement. tricky... tricky.... how mind tickling & mind blowing it sometimes can be.
it is still worthwhile after all to stay behind for others. before one can let go of self, i feel one must still dig out that self & realise how it actually rippled through the water of reflection & realise how unreal it is after all.
there are really no listeners, posters, doers here including you & me. to have words here is not pretending, it is merely the sounds of silence or actions of non-moving. thinking of right & wrong is another master piece of self that is working on the project at alluring you to it. let go & enjoy those beauty of silence from the noise & chatters here.
nice reading this thread.
i have nothing to say, really. -
From glimpses, there are times where it feels like the sense of 'distance' and 'seperation' dissolves, and as I have said before... it seems that I am not looking anymore, it feels as if I become the "looking", that there is just the scenery and no looker. Am I right to say that this 'bond' is then temporarily dissolved?Originally posted by Thusness:ic...
If we listen attentively, the sound, is it out there?
If we open our eyes and see, the sky, is it up there?
If there is the slightest sensation that it is either outside there or inside here, the bond is at work. This is how subtle it can be. -
Yes...the dualistic mode of perception is temporary suspended.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:From glimpses, there are times where it feels like the sense of 'distance' and 'seperation' dissolves, and as I have said before... it seems that I am not looking anymore, it feels as if I become the "looking", that there is just the scenery and no looker. Am I right to say that this 'bond' is then temporarily dissolved?
But for one that experience the Eternal Witness, there is a constant problem of switching.
The problem lies in on one hand we attempt to live as pure awareness and on the other hand, we are employing a dualistic mode of thought to experience the phenomenon existence. It is habitual and hypnotic. There are spiritual teachers that assume it is not necessary and that all habitual tendencies come to a complete stand still and cease. In whatever case, this is definitely not what I experience.
Instead what I learnt overtime is we must do away with this dualistic mode of thought and experience reality directly. Living as pure awareness is to live and speak its language. Mindfulness replace dualistic mode of knowing and enable us to experience directly. Emptiness is the language of not needing to have a ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’. It is the language of the One Reality. Lastly I believe if we start right, it can reduce a lot of unnecessary pains and sufferings. -
I seeOriginally posted by Thusness:Yes...the dualistic mode of perception is temporary suspended.
But for one that experience the Eternal Witness, there is a constant problem of switching.
The problem lies in on one hand we attempt to live as pure awareness and on the other hand, we are employing a dualistic mode of thought to experience the phenomenon existence. It is habitual and hypnotic. There are spiritual teachers that assume it is not necessary and that all habitual tendencies come to a complete stand still and cease. In whatever case, this is definitely not what I experience.
Instead what I learnt overtime is we must do away with this dualistic mode of thought and experience reality directly. Living as pure awareness is to live and speak its language. Mindfulness replace dualistic mode of knowing and enable us to experience directly. Emptiness is the language of not needing to have a ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’. It is the language of the One Reality. Lastly I believe if we start right, it can reduce a lot of unnecessary pains and sufferings. -
Hi Thusness,
Thank you so much for responding to my posts.Yes...living as pure consciousness. This reminds me of my experience 20 years back when I first experience Presence.
I can't help it, I must ask!!! Can you please describe the stages you have gone through in the last 20 years? What insights have you gained, what mistakes have you made? Have you wasted time by making mistakes?My experience is that the struggle is unavoidable and necessary. It is not how people reinforced concepts into us but the depth of clarity of what consciousness really is.
Yes, I love that clarity, it is exhilirating.The experience of 'Pure Consciousness', the Eternal Seer, the Ulitmate Witness or the center of all Source, what is fundamentally wrong that causes all these divisions, split, the sufferings that shouldn't exist in the first place?
Why do you think these divisions shouldn't exist. Did we not want to have a separate existence many centuries ago. Is the separate sense of self a mistake or is it a grand experiment that is now slowly coming to an end.Perhaps my deep respect for Buddha is due to his profound insight of no-self and emptiness that helps me to go beyond the bond of the Eternal Witness, the source that causes the split. Mindfulness to me is truly an ingenius technique of allowing us to experience the One reality in a right way. In fact (to me) it is the correct medicine for dissolving the division after the experience of the Eternal Witness. How it dissolves the division between inner/outer reality, subject/object dualism.
I must be missing something here because I don't see a problem with the manifested world appearing separate from the witness. Perhaps that will come later I don't know.
What do you mean by the bond of the Eternal Witness. What is It bonded to?
I must admit that in the past I have found mindfulness tedious. The idea of watching yourself all the time just didn't work for me. I tried and tried but it just didn't feel natural.
I think I am still busy watching my mind freak out at what is happening at the moment.How by observing the phenomenon existence in a raw and undefined mode can lead one to the clear insight of true non-duality. Not only is there no 'who', there is no 'where' in the realm of pure awareness.
How does one watch in a raw and undefined mode?This is my personal opinion.
When you say this is my personal opinion, are you saying this is your understanding at this level of awareness that you are at. Is it an admission of not seeing the "whole picture" yet. -
Living as pure awareness is to live and speak its language. Mindfulness replace dualistic mode of knowing and enable us to experience directly. Emptiness is the language of not needing to have a ‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’. It is the language of the One Reality. Lastly I believe if we start right, it can reduce a lot of unnecessary pains and sufferings.
"Mindfulness replaces dualistic mode of knowing"
What does that mean?
How can you live and speak the language of pure awareness when interacting with individuals in the dualistic world???
Sorry for all the questions! -
Hi JonLS,
I will try...
It will take some time to detail those stages that I deem crucial and the mistakes I made. -
Hi paperflower,
i feel it is not necessary to think too much.
I agree.knowing & experiencing are beyond words to describe yeah.
But that doesn't stop us from trying!!!being aware & not being aware is the same, right?
Yes, they are the same. And there are no problems and no one that needs to be enlightened, this is all happening in appearance only, within the awareness that we both are.it ain't a simple feat to truly realise no self over night. if you have, congratulations..... haha
It has not come overnight. I have been having insights of "no self" many times over several months. The last one I told you about was just one of many. Each time the insight seems to be deeper, more real.the forummers here have been very kind & helping in sharing what they have learnt & practiced for the benefit of many whom can get directions & learn to travel on the road to freedom.
Yes, they're great!!!
I'm amazed at how active these boards are!i feel one must still dig out that self & realise how it actually rippled through the water of reflection & realise how unreal it is after all.
Who needs to dig out the self? How can self dig itself out? If you feel there is something left to do, then are you not still efforting, deepening the delusion?
When you realize there is no one there, how can there a problem?i have nothing to say, really.
Me neither!!! Especially since I don't even exist!!! -
Hi Thusness,
I will try...
GREAT!!!
It will take some time to detail those stages that I deem crucial and the mistakes I made. -
Hi Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Longchen,
quote:
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I am now more into the process of 'letting go'... a subtle letting go brought about by spontaneous/intuitive self-recognisition.
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This sounds very familiar to me and I wonder if my previous post sounds very familiar to you.
I know there may also be a cultural difference here, if you see one, can you elaborate on it.
This may be familar to you... but anyway... a longer description.
Please note that it does not work for me all the time... This, i believe, is because conceptuality takes over unknowingly sometimes.
The understanding is that consciousness itself knows and is intelligent. No 'person' or a self is required to know or recognise any arising thought/manifestion. When an arising thought/feeling is recognised as 'it is', it loses its power to affect and this is usually followed by an energetic 'expansion'. I think this may be similar to what you described as vitality.
I also felt that all along there is really nothing that is contrived at all. It was only 'the sense of a self' that believed that it is the one thinking and doing things. Even the action of 'a self' doing something and resisting is uncontrived. The major turning point (for me) was the understanding of this fact. .. It sort of led to a 're-structuring' that is brought about by this understanding. I guess this is an important turning point for a person... For most people still assume that they are the doer of actions... nevertheless all is truly uncontrived but the assumption of a doer leads onto a separate course of action.
But I think i have many more years to go before complete naturalness reigns.
Is this similar to your experiences? -
Hi luv me or hate me,Originally posted by luv me or hate me:Interesting topic. I have been practising reiki for over two years now. Hi Longchen. Im a reiki 2 practitioner. Saw your past conversation with Oceanus. Are you still at level 2? Im curious. Intend to go for level 3 soon. Cheers!
I am still at reiki 2... No plans to go for reiki 3. Are you attuned in Singapore?
I was attuned by a highly knowledgeable Reiki master by the name of Alan. He really has a strong energy field that can be clearly felt.... probably because he is also a longtime qigong practitioner. -
Hi Thusness,
With regard to practicing mindfulness, I seem to have realized something this evening.
What you call practicing mindfulness, I would call being fully aware, which is my true nature as pure consciousness.
And so I feel that although there is no "practice" going on, since I interpret that to be something the ego/mind would effort at, at a deeper level your message has been heard and awareness is acutely aware that being fully aware is a priority.
Thank you. -
Hi longchen,
Hi Jon,
I have actually "seen" that what I am is awareness, without awareness there would be no Jon, there would be no world.
This may be familar to you... but anyway... a longer description.
Please note that it does not work for me all the time... This, i believe, is because conceptuality takes over unknowingly sometimes.
The understanding is that consciousness itself knows and is intelligent. No 'person' or a self is required to know or recognise any arising thought/manifestion.When an arising thought/feeling is recognised as 'it is', it loses its power to affect and this is usually followed by an energetic 'expansion'. I think this may be similar to what you described as vitality.
Maybe, but for me there does not have to be any thought or feeling to stimulate the vitality although sometimes thoughts and feelings can stimulate it. It appears quite random at times.
For instance this evening I had the insight that I have no idea what the present moment is. This was very painful to the mind, yet very expansive and also a great deal of energy flowed from within.I also felt that all along there is really nothing that is contrived at all. It was only 'the sense of a self' that believed that it is the one thinking and doing things. Even the action of 'a self' doing something and resisting is uncontrived.
Yes, all there is is awareness, the dream of self is happening within it, but does not affect it all. The self is not really real, just a story unfolding.The major turning point (for me) was the understanding of this fact. .. It sort of led to a 're-structuring' that is brought about by this understanding. I guess this is an important turning point for a person... For most people still assume that they are the doer of actions... nevertheless all is truly uncontrived but the assumption of a doer leads onto a separate course of action.
Any course of action is irrelevant ultimately.But I think i have many more years to go before complete naturalness reigns.
I would never allow such a limiting thought within consciousness, let alone believe it, identify with it.Is this similar to your experiences?
Somewhat. Each one of us is unique in appearance, in manifestation. -
Yes it is the natural radiance of the true nature of pure consciousness.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Thusness,
With regard to practicing mindfulness, I seem to have realized something this evening.
What you call practicing mindfulness, I would call being fully aware, which is my true nature as pure consciousness.
And so I feel that although there is no "practice" going on, since I interpret that to be something the ego/mind would effort at, at a deeper level your message has been heard and awareness is acutely aware that being fully aware is a priority.
Thank you.
However I would like to bring out certain points in my next post. -
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