Hi everyone
-
nice reading this thread.
i have nothing to say, really.
Hi paperflower,
I enjoyed reading all of this. And I too have nothing to say. Maybe I dont know what to say. After reading the threads, all I ever felt was silence. Silence and peace and I know the times when I can unconsciously "let go" into a "vegetative state of mind". That's how I describe it. No offense tho.
Maybe it will take sometime for me to go into the states that Jon has been experiencing. Right now, I am living life as it is. Keep up Jon, I hope you find what you have been looking for. -
While searching for some of the things Tony Parsons said I also chance upon this website. But not by Tony Parsons.Originally posted by Thusness:Hi JonLS,
Thanks for sharing.
Yes...living as pure consciousness. This reminds me of my experience 20 years back when I first experience Presence. My experience is that the struggle is unavoidable and necessary. It is not how people reinforced concepts into us but the depth of clarity of what consciousness really is. The experience of 'Pure Consciousness', the Eternal Seer, the Ulitmate Witness or the center of all Source, what is fundamentally wrong that causes all these divisions, split, the sufferings that shouldn't exist in the first place?
Perhaps my deep respect for Buddha is due to his profound insight of no-self and emptiness that helps me to go beyond the bond of the Eternal Witness, the source that causes the split. Mindfulness to me is truly an ingenius technique of allowing us to experience the One reality in a right way. In fact (to me) it is the correct medicine for dissolving the division after the experience of the Eternal Witness. How it dissolves the division between inner/outer reality, subject/object dualism. How by observing the phenomenon existence in a raw and undefined mode can lead one to the clear insight of true non-duality. Not only is there no 'who', there is no 'where' in the realm of pure awareness. This is my personal opinion.
http://www.nonduality.com/1000db.htm.....In your question, you ask about breaking the habit of identification and the "intended result" of pure Awareness. Looking into this situation, it is seen that an observer appears to have taken a position. That position is that "breaking identification" would be useful and that the experience of being pure Awareness would be fulfilling. As long as this observer continues to attempt to break identifications, detach from this or that, or experience pure Awareness, the full depth of the question of the nature and existence of the observer cannot be explored. The observer is always assumed to be there, as the one who witnesses, the one who recognizes identification and detachment, the one who experiences Awareness, or who knows Awareness as such and can talk about it.
The "deepest" question is looking into the reality of the observer, about whether any position ever has actually been taken by an observer. The question isn't used by an observer, it is used to negate assumptions about an observer. The instant the observer is not, no question arises, no answer is needed. As long as there is continuing thought and energy aimed at a goal, or aimed at maintaining or changing a state of being, there will always remain the impression of an observer. It is at the very moment that no attempt is made to continue a thought
process, achieve a goal, have a particular outcome, maintain a state - at that very moment there is the seeing that no observer has ever taken a position anywhere. This was always assumed, was always the basis for activity. Nonactivity of mind allows the truth to clarify itself.
Because these questions seem to lead to an answer, the misconception tends to arise that the idea of "no observer" or "Awareness is all" is some kind of answer, philosophy, or belief to be promoted. The opposite of this is the case. If such ideas are taken as answers, the observer clearly has set up shop as the one who can promote the idea that there is no observer. Thus, this inquiry is profound, and is not at all a matter of accepting any answer or formula. The questioning intensifies so that "this moment", "this instant" becomes the only "place" the question can arise or be directed. "This instant" is a flash, and yet is "all that is". "Instantaneous awareness" is this moment, is where the question arising and that to which the question is addressed are not-two. The subject conceiving the question and the object of inquiry (e.g., the present moment) are unsplit. It is a matter of intensifying inquiry to the pointless point which is presentness. Then, neither question nor answer is needed.
The observer has disappeared this instant, as this "momentary" or "discontinuous" perception has no place for an observer. The observer requires time and distance. The instant that there is not the intent to describe or act upon a description, the observer (who is nothing but description) ceases.
There indeed can be distancing from feelings, and resistance to 'what is' in the process of "aiming to be the Witness", or trying to "experience pure Awareness". That friction and distance is the attempt of the observer to be, where no observer actually is... -
(...continued)
The observer ceases the instant that clarity *is* as "presentness". The only impediment to clarity is the attempt to make a certain kind of clarity be the case (based on idea, desire, anxiety, or description - all of which imply and require an observer). When there is not the attempt to manufacture clarity (or well-being), there is nothing to impede "what is" *as is*. The truth is, we don't want "what is". We don't want "no observer". We don't want Reality. Methinks we doth protest too much. All our supposed expressing of Reality, explanations of how we found Reality, attempts to seek for Reality, descriptions of Reality -- all of these bring Reality no closer than it is now. The truth is, we are avoiding Reality. Even in the process of expressing, describing, and pretending we *are* Reality - we're avoiding. It's clear how we're avoiding. We're avoiding whenever we are "there" as the observer/expresser. We can't make ourselves not be "there". We can only not be there. This is true humility. It means that not one word said here about Reality is true, nor any other words about Reality.
Because the conceptual point of observation is not, that which is observed cannot be "fit" into conceptual categories previously maintained as the "me-center" of perception. The relativity of all these categories is "seen", and Reality that is undivided, unsplit by thought or concept simply is the case.
What has happened to the awareness previously situated as "the observer"? Now, awareness and perception are unsplit. For example, if a tree is perceived, the "observer" is "every leaf of the tree". There is no observer/awareness apart from things,
nor are there any things apart from awareness. What dawns is: "this is it". All the pontifications, pointings, wise sayings, implications of "special knowledge", fearless quests for truth, paradoxically clever insights -- all of these are seen to be unnecessary and beside the point. "This", exactly as is, is "It". There is no need to add to "This" with anything further, in fact there is no "further" - nor is there any "thing" to hold on to, or to do away with.
Gloria: Dan, at this point, any assertion seems superfluous. This is a territory only referred to by silence and emptiness, and even that is too much. Even to say, "I AM" only further complicates, it adds another layer of meaning to awareness. Even saying no-doer is a type of assertion, isn't it? So is this just impossible to discuss further?
Dan:
You bring up two points here, Glo, which seem worth addressing: not referring to "I AM" and using "nondoer" terminology, or I think, perhaps "nonobserver" terminology might be more apt.
Not using "I AM", and instead referring to "pure awareness", is a way to say the awareness isn't focused on an "I" nor is it concerned with distinguishing being from not-being regarding
itself. It isn't viewing itself in any sort of objectifying way, so wouldn't have concepts about states it is in -- "I AM" only fits as opposed to "something else is", or "I am not". With no "something else" and no "not-I", there can't be an "I AM" awareness. "Pure awareness" can be criticized in a similar way - is there "impure" awareness, is there something other than awareness? So the terms "pure awareness, or just "awareness" are simply used to interact through dialogue, with recognition that words always imply dualistic contrasts.
The related concepts that "the observer is not", or "the doer is not" are ways to question assumptions that tend to govern perception. When the assumption has been sufficiently questioned, the assertion is no longer needed. This is the principle of "using a thorn to remove a thorn." No negative has relevance when no positive has been asserted. "Simple awareness" has not thought of an observer or doer being present or not being present. -
Yes, let go until there is complete tranquil calmness, but also experience our inherent clarity, the Presence/Pure Awareness as real as it can be!Originally posted by luv me or hate me:nice reading this thread.
i have nothing to say, really.
Hi paperflower,
I enjoyed reading all of this. And I too have nothing to say. Maybe I dont know what to say. After reading the threads, all I ever felt was silence. Silence and peace and I know the times when I can unconsciously "let go" into a "vegetative state of mind". That's how I describe it. No offense tho.
Maybe it will take sometime for me to go into the states that Jon has been experiencing. Right now, I am living life as it is. Keep up Jon, I hope you find what you have been looking for.
Vegetative state is quite different in this aspect.
My signature: Our letting go must be more thorough than any nihilist, and our Presence must be more thorough than any realist. -
Hi Longchen,Originally posted by longchen:Hi luv me or hate me,
I am still at reiki 2... No plans to go for reiki 3. Are you attuned in Singapore?
I was attuned by a highly knowledgeable Reiki master by the name of Alan. He really has a strong energy field that can be clearly felt.... probably because he is also a longtime qigong practitioner.
Im attuned by my master called Parag Pattani. His master was from India. I was attuned in Singapore. Do you still keep in touch with Alan? I would like to find out about the different masters. You can find out about Parag too if you like. He has his own website. Maybe you would have heard of him too. I have nothing but respect for him, for helping me obtain the gift of healing and self healing. Were you attuned in Singapore?
Some people who practise energy, you can feel them when you are near them. They seem to give it out. I had a friend whose energy field feels like "electricity" where the hands on my arms would salute to. Like static. I thought I felt ghost, but I had no fear at that time, and instinct tells me its all right. But the thing is, this friend of mine have not been doing the energy thing like since two years back, but his energy flowed out when I am near him. Energy flows out, as it is, not from the hands but from the body. No need to call for it. Spontaneous. Like what we have been talking about in these threads. I seldom meet anyone who gives out energy that can be clearly felt, and it also takes to recognize it and realise that it is actually just energy flowing. The energy came out from him, his being. He has a different mentor that teaches on how to use energies.
What does Alan's energy field feels like?
My friend can describe energy as sweet, or heavy, or even sourish. Thay are good and bad ones too. "Sourish" probably from the bad kind of people. I have not have the chance to taste much energy cos I have not met many to recognize it. Im amazed one can "taste" it. Know anything about it?
Why waste energy? Conserve it and put it to good use. :p
Hope to hear from ya soon. -
Double posting, so delete.
-
Double posting, so delete. -
Hi JonLS and LongChen,
I believe these 2 account of experiences will sound familar to both of ya
....
It is the experience of "I AM"...just for sharing...
Stage 1: The experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I”. I do not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise. There is merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is it? It is not the body, not thought as there is no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There is no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It is as if life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this expression. However at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this experience is and how I have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The experience of “I AM Everything”
It seems that my experience is supported by many Advanta and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct contradiction with what I experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could not appreciate why Buddha has taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there is no ‘me’. It is like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real that the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It is the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence... -
Sounds very very much like the zen koan, "What is the original face before you were born?"Originally posted by Thusness:Hi JonLS and LongChen,
I believe these 2 account of experiences will sound familar to both of ya ....
It is the experience of "I AM"...just for sharing...
Stage 1: The experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I”.
-
Yes, let go until there is complete tranquil calmness, but also experience our inherent clarity, the Presence/Pure Awareness as real as it can be! Vegetative state is quite different in this aspect.
_____________________________________________________________
keke... i know la.. hehe just trying to be funny.. oops...! A bit far for me to comprehend so I describe it the best way i could in my own way... layman terms.
I am in my own world half the time, maybe I have experienced it without me knowing it?
Have a nice day! -
If you are aware... you should be completely clear and there shouldn't be doubtOriginally posted by luv me or hate me:Yes, let go until there is complete tranquil calmness, but also experience our inherent clarity, the Presence/Pure Awareness as real as it can be! Vegetative state is quite different in this aspect.
_____________________________________________________________
keke... i know la.. hehe just trying to be funny.. oops...! A bit far for me to comprehend so I describe it the best way i could in my own way... layman terms.
I am in my own world half the time, maybe I have experienced it without me knowing it?
Have a nice day! In your own world... immersed in thoughts/day dreaming? -
Hahaha! sometimes la... keke... so clever you!Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If you are aware... you should be completely clear and there shouldn't be doubt In your own world... immersed in thoughts/day dreaming? -
---
-
To all,
thnks for sharing. -
When I woke up this morning there was a recognition that mind activity and identification with the body will not get me where I want to go. Both seem to have been dropped spontaneously.
This afternoon the energy/presence flowed but in a more natural way as if it is going to be a permanent state from now on.
There is a recognition that the only thing necessary is to allow the present moment to manifest as it will. No efforting, no understanding, no practicing of any kind is needed. Any attempt to do these would deviate from the natural flow.
Surrender is what is needed.
That alone.
All that is needed is coming from within. -
Hi JonLS and LongChen,
I have never read anything so beautiful.
I believe these 2 account of experiences will sound familar to both of ya ....
It is the experience of "I AM"...just for sharing...
Stage 1: The experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I”. I do not know why but this question seems to capture my entire being. I can spend days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise. There is merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what is it? It is not the body, not thought as there is no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There is no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experience tremendous flow of energy being released. It is as if life is expressing itself through my body and I am merely nothing but this expression. However at that point in time, I am still unable to fully understand what this experience is and how I have misunderstood its nature.
Stage 2: The experience of “I AM Everything”
It seems that my experience is supported by many Advanta and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made is when I spoke to a Buddhist friend, he told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it is in direct contradiction with what I experienced. I was deeply confused for sometime and could not appreciate why Buddha has taught this doctrine and worst still make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there is no ‘me’. It is like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insist that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself I am totally convinced that I am no more confused so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real that the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase is like a mantra to me. I often use this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey is the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It is the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence...
Thank you.
-
Hi An Eternal Now,
If you are aware... you should be completely clear and there shouldn't be doubt
I agree.
-
To seek guidance from others is to deny your own true nature.
Go within instead. -
Yes. What you said is perfectly right. I will like to share with you 4 more points.Originally posted by JonLS:When I woke up this morning there was a recognition that mind activity and identification with the body will not get me where I want to go. Both seem to have been dropped spontaneously.
This afternoon the energy/presence flowed but in a more natural way as if it is going to be a permanent state from now on.
There is a recognition that the only thing necessary is to allow the present moment to manifest as it will. No efforting, no understanding, no practicing of any kind is needed. Any attempt to do these would deviate from the natural flow.
Surrender is what is needed.
That alone.
All that is needed is coming from within. -
Thanks.Originally posted by JonLS:I have never read anything so beautiful.
Thank you.
3. Entering into a state of nothingness
Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ is the problem. It is the ‘I’ that is blocking; it is the ‘I’ that is the limit; it is the ‘I’ that is the boundary but why can’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to rid the ‘I’...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times but with few months of gap)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So. -
Hi Thusness,
. Entering into a state of nothingness
I am really surprised to read this.
Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence is still there but there is no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ is the problem. It is the ‘I’ that is blocking; it is the ‘I’ that is the limit; it is the ‘I’ that is the boundary but why can’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to rid the ‘I’...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of course there are many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times but with few months of gap)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything simply Self So.
You are wanting an experience to come back.
You are wanting to do away with the "I".
This seems paradoxical.
Because it is the "I" that sees a problem.
It is the the "I" that wants the present moment to be different than what it is.
It is the "I" that has expectations as to how things should be.
If there were total surrender to the present moment without expectations would there be a different outcome?
If there were complete surrender, would it matter if the outcome were not different? -
Yes it is, it is paradoxical and a journey into naturalness seems to require one to come face to face with this paradox.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Thusness,
I am really surprised to read this.
You are wanting an experience to come back.
You are wanting to do away with the "I".
This seems paradoxical.
Because it is the "I" that sees a problem.
It is the the "I" that wants the present moment to be different than what it is.
It is the "I" that has expectations as to how things should be.
If there were total surrender to the present moment without expectations would there be a different outcome?
If there were complete surrender, would it matter if the outcome were not different?
The 13+ years journey is always 'do nothing and let divine happening unfolds.'
I want to share with you the experience of the mirror bright clarity tonight.
Followed by the experience of no-mirror and lastly Emptiness. Hope they will helpful to you. -
4. Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence syncs deeply with what I experience in life. I am faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I have no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I seek for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasn’t that resistant then about the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenon existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Are they talking about the ‘Self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’ itself or the Witness is another illusion itself?
There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing elseÂ….
The heart beatsÂ…..
the SceneryÂ…
There is no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to ariseÂ…
There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never has it existed
There is no entry and exit pointÂ…
There is no Sound out there or in hereÂ…
There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
The manifold of PresenceÂ….
Moment to moment Presences unfoldsÂ…
Presence is the Crystal Bright ClarityÂ… -
hi....Originally posted by luv me or hate me:nice reading this thread.
i have nothing to say, really.
Hi paperflower,
I enjoyed reading all of this. And I too have nothing to say. Maybe I dont know what to say. After reading the threads, all I ever felt was silence. Silence and peace and I know the times when I can unconsciously "let go" into a "vegetative state of mind". That's how I describe it. No offense tho.
Maybe it will take sometime for me to go into the states that Jon has been experiencing. Right now, I am living life as it is. Keep up Jon, I hope you find what you have been looking for.
"vegetative state of mind.... "
you too felt that silence? it's kinda carefree without the need to say a word, to think or do anything yeah.... kekee...
whenever it's possible to fill up blanks for interest, i'd state "doing nothing". then sometimes my friends ask me, don't you have a hobby or an aim? then i'd say my hobby is aiming to accomplish & master at doing nothing yet things get done.
hahaa.... yeah right...
no worries
me don't luv you or hate you
wish you the best in a progressive safe & happy journey. -
Was it something similar to the one you asked me to send you?Originally posted by Thusness:I was meditating the above stanza deeply…about its meaning until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding…. It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience is so familiar, so real and so clear. It is the same experience of “I AM”….it is without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between…What is it? IT is Presence! But this time it is not ‘I AM’, it is not asking ‘who am I’, it is not the pure sense of “I AM”, it is ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing elseÂ….
The heart beatsÂ…..
the SceneryÂ…
http://www.dailyzen.com/meditate.asp