Hi everyone
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ahahahah... longchen must be expert in thisOriginally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here also.
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What if this is all a dream ?
Would you wake up or would u still enjoy lucidly
And why would you want to wake up (becos its unreal ,its just a illusion )
and why would you want to enjoy lucidly (becos the dream is just so enjoyable ?)
And if You waken up ,would you want to wake the rest up , as everyone around you is in that dream?
Our Compassionate Father ,Buddha Sakyamuni ,realised its a dream ,and
strive to "wake up " on the morning and left the palace in search for the solutions to the sufferings of the world of Birth, Old Age ,Sickness and Death .
Please give yourself confidence that you will be able to help us
"wake up " on the path
Homage to the Mahasattva of the Bodhisattva assembly -
Longchen's topic.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here also.
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Yes the deeper layer of consciousness...Originally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here also.
However what that is deeply hidden in Consciousness is manifestated not only in dreams but also in everyday waking state. A 'seed' (metaphorical) that goes undetected and manifests almost without gap with our clarity nature like a shadow is the seed that bonds us to the belief of a 'self'. Even realisation came that 'everything is the one reality' (intuitively seen and directly experienced), the bond continues to operate subtlely though it is greatly loosen.
Presence is ever natural and spontaneous with or without realisation otherwise existence would cease to be. No effort is needed to improve its clarity, vitality and intelligence! But 'right effort' is needed to break this 'bond'.
Even surrendering and letting go are effort because there is a detection of the bond coming into manifestation otherwise ithere will be no blockage, there is nothing to surrender and let go!
When one realises that there is really no one there, who is doing? The bond is doing...() put this to challenge right at this moment! Experience the full power of the bond! Seeing that there is no one there without seeing this bond at work will lead to confusion. Right effort needs to be done to eliminate this bond.
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Longchen explains how the "Witness" becomes the great constant in the in a stream of ever becoming. Only the being witnessed is sufficent. There is change, there is no changing 'thing'.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi again Longchen,
I took this from the John Wheeler's talk I posted:
So he is saying here that you are the awareness but that thoughts, feelings and external objects are separate.
Is this what you are pointing to?
And the truth of the matter of course is that there is no seperation, absolutely everything within the present moment, everything that is, is It! It is all One. No separation. Separation is appearance only!
And Thusness will explain why this appearance of separation of awareness from everything else occurs.
That was his question to me.
Why we fall back into trying to be just the awareness, when in fact we are everything. -
Hi Thusness,
Presence is ever natural and spontaneous with or without realisation otherwise existence would cease to be. No effort is needed to improve its clarity, vitality and intelligence!
Yes, I see this very clearly that no effort is needed to improve the clarity and "isness" right now!!!But 'right effort' is needed to break this 'bond'.
Can you explain what you mean by right effort?
I seem to feel that any effort would validate the bond, making it stronger, making a belief that something is wrong, and something needs to be done about it.
I have the impression that being identified with the body and mind has a certain momentum and this identification is dissolving slowly on it's own.When one realises that there is really no one there, who is doing? The bond is doing...() put this to challenge right at this moment!
Yes, this is what I was saying above, there is momentum to identification, you call it a bond, it is dissolving....
If I challenge it right now I see a subtle identification with posting with you about a non existent problem that appears to be in the present moment!!!Longchen explains how the "Witness" becomes the great constant in the in a stream of ever becoming. Only the being witnessed is sufficent. There is change, there is no changing 'thing'.
Yes, this is the ever-flowing stream, the constant becoming which we define as the present moment. Is that what you are saying? -
Merry Meet luv me or hate me,Originally posted by luv me or hate me:Oops sorry...! hee..
So Oceanos, where do you practise? Do you still teach or? Do you do attunements?
My ~*~ LIGHT OF ATLANTIS ~*~ is a fully operating establishment. Instead of answering my questions, you ask me questions? I do teach & have different kind of workshops & services available. I do not offer Usui Reiki Attunements anymore as i am too busy with other stuffs. Anyway that about all for our little chat in here. Thanks again.
Blessed Be,
Oceanos -
Hi JonLS,
Presence will find its way and it is not necessary to go through a period of intense suffering and depression like Katie and Eckhart Tolle in order to break the bond and get in ‘touch’ with Reality. Right effort is the effort leading one to the experience of the Presence before the birth of names and labels. The way towards imagelessness Reality. (e.g. Mindfulness). When the mind realises the quality of beauty and joy is far greater than the symbolic realm that it stubbornly holds, it begin to lose it grips and the 'bond' loosen.
Yes.The Power of Now; Eckhart Tolle, Excerpt
Use your senses fully. Be where you are. Look around. Just look, don't interpret. See the lights, shapes, colours, textures. Be aware of the silent presence of each thing. Be aware of the space that allows everything to be. Listen to the sounds; don't judge them. Listen to the silence underneath the sounds. Touch something - anything - and feel and acknowledge its Being. Observe the rhythm of your breathing; feel the air flowing in and out, feel the life energy inside your body. Allow everything to be, within and without. Allow the "isness" of all things. Move deeply into the Now.
[/quote]
[quote]
Yes, this is the ever-flowing stream, the constant becoming which we define as the present moment. Is that what you are saying? -
A friend came to pass me some cheques to sign and saw me reading this forum...
IT triggered a short conversation and I asked:
"Without the using the thought of I, how do you experience I?"
He closed his eyes for a while...
Open his eyes and said "Everything!"
and his eyes like
Try it!
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Hi Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Hi everyone,
I posted this on another discussion board and would appreciate some feedback here also.
quote:I keep having this recurring dream, over and over again.
I have been a substitute teacher for the last 15 years before retiring this year.
As such I have been in many difficult classes where some semblance of control was paramount.
In this recurring dream, I have a difficult class, I ask them repeatedly to stop talking and to do their work.
This doesn't work at all.
So I go to each student individually, get right in front of them, right in their face, and ask them very forcefully to stop talking and do their work.
This works momentarily, the student stops talking and starts to work, barely acknowledging my presence.
As soon as I leave this student to go and talk to some other student, the first student ceases to concentrate on working and goes back to talking with his friends.
This goes on and on in the dream, I get very tired, very hoarse, very discouraged.
But I am completely identified with the task at hand, there is no space, no acceptance, there is complete unconsciousness.
When I woke up this morning the dream was still very vivid and very painfully in my mind.
I wondered what to do about the situation.
It dawned on me that I should just accept the situation, accept it deeply, and so I did.
I accepted the fact I had this unconscious dream that recurred time and time again.
And then it dawned on me that this dream is pointing out that there is still unconsciousness within me, and this unconsciousness is at an unconscious level and is showing up as this dream.
And so I accepted fully the fact that there is deep unconsciousness within.
And then this situation reminded me of Claudia's posts, about how she complains about being completely identified with mind.
And then I had a moment of insight.
The insight is that I am not only totally identified with the story of my own awakening but I am also totally identified with wanting other people to awaken also.
I am forever posting wanting to help, wanting to guide, wanting to inspire.
What if this is all a dream?
What if there is nothing that needs to be done at all?
This was painful to look at. ( a dead giveaway that I am on to something!)
This caused total confusion, complete "not knowing" and disorientation. (another good sign)
And so I have to accept the fact that this is all a dream, there really is no one to help, everything is fine the way it is.
And still this leaves "me" completely lost, completely disoriented.
And that is completely ok.
Your interpretation is correct..but there is more to the dream.
Classroom means that this is a lesson to be learn. All the students are your sub-personalities or karmic patterns. These students seems to be untamable... this give you problems. You feel that you cannot control the thoughts and how they behave or feel... and you feel tired and think that this is a problem.
It may take some time for the karmic patterns to slowly fade away. In the meantime, try not to suppress them... They will go away in due time.
All the best!
And this is OK... all of us have karmic patterns, otherwise we would not be reborn! -
A friend came to pass me some cheques to sign and saw me reading this forum...
IT triggered a short conversation and I asked:
"Without the using the thought of I, how do you experience I?"
He closed his eyes for a while...
Open his eyes and said "Everything!"
and his eyes like
Try it!
A powerful post, Thusness.
Mainly because of it's simplicity! -
Hi Thusness and Longchen,
Thank you for your posts, for confirming what is already known, but it is always good to have it confirmed by others, helps it to deepen...
I would like to invite both of you to join me (my name is "din" there) on the blue discussion boards.
That is if you have the time or inclination.
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/index.php
An Eternal Now is also on these boards!
Or you could join me on the grey boards (my name is Amadeus there).
http://now-for-you.com/forum/index.php
As you can see I am quite obsessed with Truth and posting... -
Hi Thusness,
Right effort is the effort leading one to the experience of the Presence before the birth of names and labels. The way towards imagelessness Reality. (e.g. Mindfulness). When the mind realises the quality of beauty and joy is far greater than the symbolic realm that it stubbornly holds, it begin to lose it grips and the 'bond' loosen.
Thank you for your amazingly clear answer.
quote:
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The Power of Now; Eckhart Tolle, Excerpt
Use your senses fully. Be where you are. Look around. Just look, don't interpret. See the lights, shapes, colours, textures. Be aware of the silent presence of each thing. Be aware of the space that allows everything to be. Listen to the sounds; don't judge them. Listen to the silence underneath the sounds. Touch something - anything - and feel and acknowledge its Being. Observe the rhythm of your breathing; feel the air flowing in and out, feel the life energy inside your body. Allow everything to be, within and without. Allow the "isness" of all things. Move deeply into the Now.
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And the fact you used an Eckhart Tolle quote to answer shows your flexibility, versatility and resourcefulness.
You're a great teacher! -
Will do.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Thusness and Longchen,
Thank you for your posts, for confirming what is already known, but it is always good to have it confirmed by others, helps it to deepen...
I would like to invite both of you to join me (my name is "din" there) on the blue discussion boards.
That is if you have the time or inclination.
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/index.php
An Eternal Now is also on these boards!
Or you could join me on the grey boards (my name is Amadeus there).
http://now-for-you.com/forum/index.php
As you can see I am quite obsessed with Truth and posting... -
Will do. Thanks.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Thusness and Longchen,
Thank you for your posts, for confirming what is already known, but it is always good to have it confirmed by others, helps it to deepen...
I would like to invite both of you to join me (my name is "din" there) on the blue discussion boards.
That is if you have the time or inclination.
http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info/index.php
An Eternal Now is also on these boards!
Or you could join me on the grey boards (my name is Amadeus there).
http://now-for-you.com/forum/index.php
As you can see I am quite obsessed with Truth and posting... -
I think it must be done out of compassion, but at the same time not clinging to it.Originally posted by JonLS:The insight is that I am not only totally identified with the story of my own awakening but I am also totally identified with wanting other people to awaken also.
I am forever posting wanting to help, wanting to guide, wanting to inspire.
What if this is all a dream?
What if there is nothing that needs to be done at all?"Hurts more, bother you less" - and very important to honour both sides.
also see:
The two sides - how are they counselled? http://lads.myspace.com/videos/vplayer.swf?u=YUhSMGNEb3ZMMk52Ym5SbGJuUXViVzkyYVdWekxtTmtiaTV0ZVhOd1lXTmxMbU52YlM4d01EQTNNVEV5THpFMEx6TXdMemN4TVRJek1ETTBNUzVtYkhZPQ==&d=586
(i find this a good watch, by Ken Wilber)
THE FIVE DEGREES OF TOZAN
Thusness said this is one of the best guide on "stages of enlightenment" (see: Interesting site about stages of progress
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I also posted this in the forum previously, in the "excuse me, are you a Bodhisattva?" topic:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
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The only way to become a True Bodhisattva is not only making a simple vow but generating Bodhicitta that springs up from true compassion and aspiration, definitely not guilt or etc. On the higher level Bodhicitta is the Realisation of Emptiness. A vow also does not determine whether you will succeed in Buddhahood, but very much how you act according to the vow.
It is true that one will encounter many difficult situations along the way to Buddhahood, but nevertheless the True Bodhisattva remains liberated. He is not even caught up by the notion of 'saving people', if he were, he is not practising the true practise of Bodhisattva but simply remains as a sentient being caught up by notions and concepts of self. It is a spiritual training and is tough, but in the light of Prajna wisdom it is not impossible.
[b]The Diamond Sutra:
Subhuti, what do you think about this? Does the Tathagata think: I have saved all Beings? You must not think so, because there is not a single being which is saved by the Tathagata. If the Tathagata saved a being, that would be seizing by the Tathagata on self - atman, seizing on a being, seizing on soul, seizing on a person.
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Do not think that you should save people. There is no one to save. If there were anyone to save, there would be a self.
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"Subhuti, Bodhisattva is also like this. If he said, 'I should take across immeasurable living beings to Cessation,' then he could not be called a Bodhisattva. Why? Subhuti, there is really no dharma called a Bodhisattva. Therefore the Buddha says that all dharmas are without self, others, living beings or a life.
"Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva said, 'I should adorn Buddhalands,' he could not be called a Bodhisattva. Why? What the Thus Come One speaks of as adorning Buddhalands is not adorning Buddhalands. Therefore it is called adorning Buddhalands. Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva comprehends the dharma of no self, the Thus Come One calls him a true Bodhisattva."
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The Buddha told Subhuti, "All Bodhisattvas, Mahasattvas, should subdue their minds thus: 'I must cause all living beings--those born from eggs, wombs, moisture, by transformation; those with form, those without form, those with thought, those without thought, those not totally endowed with thought, and those not totally without thought--to enter Nirvana without residue and be taken across to Cessation. Yet of the immeasurable, numberless, boundless numbers of living beings thus taken across to Cessation, there is actually no living being taken across to Cessation. ' Why? Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva has an appearance of self, others, living beings, or a life, he is not a Bodhisattva."
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Bodhisattvas save people out of true compassion but does not get caught up by any notions. A true Bodhisattva is one that has had a direct perception on Emptiness, thereby entering the 'path of seeing', '1st Bhumi', therefore before that we can only say that we are still learning and practising. It is only at certain point where Prajna wisdom arise can we be said to enter the path of seeing towards Buddhahood.
The Diamond sutra contains a lot of verses pertaining to true Bodhisattva practise.[/b]
More from Diamond Sutra (http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/clubs/buddhism/sutras/diamond1.html):
anyway I've changed my forum signature to a verse which i saw... The past mind cannot be grasped, neither can the present mind nor the future mind. ~ Diamond Sutra
"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Stream-Enterer think, 'I have attained the fruit of stream-entry.'?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? Stream-Enterer means to enter the stream, but in fact there is no stream to enter. One does not enter a stream that is form, nor a stream that is sound, smell, taste, touch, or object of mind. That is what we mean when we say entering a stream."
"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Once-Returner think, 'I have attained the fruit of Once-Returning.'?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? Once-Returner means to go and return once more, but in truth there is no going just as there is no returning. That is what we mean when we say Once-Returner."
"What do you think, Subhuti? Does a Non-Returner think like this,'l have attained the fruit of No-Return.'?"
Subhuti replied,"No, World-Honored One. Why? No-Return means not to return to this world, but in fact there cannot be any Non-Returning. That is what we mean when we say Non-Returner."
"What do you think, Subhuti? Does an Arhat think like this, 'I have attained the fruit of Arhatshipπ?"
Subhuti replied, "No, World-Honored One. Why? There is no separately existing thing that can be called Arhat. If an Arhat gives rise to the thought that he has attained the fruit of Arhatship, then he is still caught up in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. World-Honored One, you have often said that I have attained the concentration of peaceful abiding and that in the community, I am the Arhat who has most transformed need and desire. World-Honored One, if I were to think that I had attained the fruit of Arhatship, you certainly would not have said that I love to dwell in the concentration of peaceful abiding." -
Hi An Eternal Now,
Good stuff!!!
Thank you. -
Thusness said this is one of the best guide on "stages of enlightenment" (see: Interesting site about stages of progress
Hi An Eternal Now,
I agree!!!
I especially liked the conclusion and this:This is the level of full Self Realization, and in some schools of philosophy it is considered the only true level of enlightenment.
It is irreversible, total, and all questions have ceased. The AMness has now fallen away to the point that the Jnani is now the ‘I’ – the perceiver of the ‘AM’ plus enough AMness to contain their basic personality and the genetic traits they were born with.
At this stage the term Jnani is used. It means – ‘one who knows’
The irony is that most people think that means they know a great deal or everything. What it really means is that they now ‘know’, at the deepest level, that they ‘know’ nothing. There may be much intellectual knowledge and understandings, but essentially they know that the true nature of life and existence cannot be understood with the mind. -
A few weeks ago I had a split second insight, it's really amazing how an insight only lasts that long and is gone after that. But it's not really gone, somehow it remains and not quite in memory either because the mind/memory could never understand or "hold onto" this insight.
I had an insight into what I will call "pure presence" or another name for it could be "no mind".
It would be impossible for me to truly describe this state.
But I can give a few adjectives for it.
It is completely free, very immediate and absolutely pristine.
There is complete "not knowing" because the mind is completely quiet, one could say it's a state of "no mind".
I recognize that this state of "no mind" is here right now, but of course there is mind also which is "superimposed" on top of it somehow. -
In complete stillness...the silence...That very Silence is the absolute pristine.Originally posted by JonLS:A few weeks ago I had a split second insight, it's really amazing how an insight only lasts that long and is gone after that. But it's not really gone, somehow it remains and not quite in memory either because the mind/memory could never understand or "hold onto" this insight.
I had an insight into what I will call "pure presence" or another name for it could be "no mind".
It would be impossible for me to truly describe this state.
But I can give a few adjectives for it.
It is completely free, very immediate and absolutely pristine.
There is complete "not knowing" because the mind is completely quiet, one could say it's a state of "no mind".
I recognize that this state of "no mind" is here right now, but of course there is mind also which is "superimposed" on top of it somehow.
In manifestation, see...the scenery...The incredible realness and vividness of the sceneryÂ… is also the absolute pristine.
Neither stillness nor manifestation is purer or clearer than the other. It is the chattering of the mind that creates the differentiation. When no mirror reflecting is stabilized, all things are absolutely pristine. They are the Absolute Pristine itself under differing conditions. -
Saw Din working hard in telling ET forum that their mirrors are reflecting. Told you that the bond is very subtle...
Don't give up!
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Hi Thusness,
In complete stillness...the silence...That very Silence is the absolute pristine.
This sounds very good!
In manifestation, see...the scenery...The incredible realness and vividness of the sceneryÂ… is also the absolute pristine.
Neither stillness nor manifestation is purer or clearer than the other. It is the chattering of the mind that creates the differentiation. When no mirror reflecting is stabilized, all things are absolutely pristine. They are the Absolute Pristine itself under differing conditions.Saw Din working hard in telling ET forum that their mirrors are reflecting. Told you that the bond is very subtle...
Sometimes, I wonder if it is a good thing to engage in this "chatter" on the boards, perhaps that stimulates the mind.
Don't give up! -
I forget where I got this from, I hope it's not from this site!
You are already That for which you are seeking.
All that is required to know this
Is to give up the struggle.
It is so simple.
And when I say give up the struggle,
It doesn't mean you don't get stressed anymore.
This is so simple,
So undeniable.
Emotions coming and going are not a problem.
Strong emotions come
And disappear again.
Strong thoughts come
And disappear again.
There is only one tiny thing
That could possibly create a problem
In any of that,
And it's such a tiny thing,
You can pop it with a tiny pin.
The only thing that could interfere
With everything being natural and relaxed
Is the idea that
You shouldn't have this stuff going on.
That tiny idea,
"I shouldn't have this emotion,
I shouldn't have this thought,"
Creates this wall within yourself
And then the sense of presence is lost. -
I had another insight tonight.
It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the beginning of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was in essence the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.
What I "saw" was that all there is is this present moment.
But this manifestation that we call the present moment, is simply that, a manifestation.
There really is no "story" attached to the manifestation.
The manifestation is appearance only.
"The story" is what adds "meaning" to the manifestation, to the appearance.
"The story" is essentially conditioning, and it is amazing just how deep and pervasive conditioning is.
Let me give you an example.
Eckhart talks about looking at a tree without naming it, without putting a label on it.
That is what he is pointing to.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the manifestation.
We can't see this because the mind has put a label on everything, interprets everything.
We are living in sacredness, we just don't realize it.
We are sacredness, we just don't realize it.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy "interpreting" to realize this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the computer and the keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post are God's fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center, to the seat of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just appearance also.
The whole of the manifestation is "It" , is "God" , is the manifestation.
There is not one part of "It" that is more "It" than any other part.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part of the manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any other way.
Except perhaps it appears to be the entry point of the unmanifested into the manifested. -
Yes JonLS,Originally posted by JonLS:I had another insight tonight.
It was much longer and more involved than the original insight I described at the beginning of this thread.
It was totally a different insight/manifestation than the original one and yet it was in essence the same and deepened my understanding of Reality.
What I "saw" was that all there is is this present moment.
But this manifestation that we call the present moment, is simply that, a manifestation.
There really is no "story" attached to the manifestation.
The manifestation is appearance only.
"The story" is what adds "meaning" to the manifestation, to the appearance.
"The story" is essentially conditioning, and it is amazing just how deep and pervasive conditioning is.
Let me give you an example.
Eckhart talks about looking at a tree without naming it, without putting a label on it.
That is what he is pointing to.
The fact that the tree and absolutely everything else is "God" is "It, is the manifestation.
We can't see this because the mind has put a label on everything, interprets everything.
We are living in sacredness, we just don't realize it.
We are sacredness, we just don't realize it.
Everything is "It" , is "God", is the manifestation, but we are too busy "interpreting" to realize this.
I am sitting at the computer posting this knowing that the appearance of the computer and the keyboard is essentially "God", and the fingers typing this post are God's fingers, not mine.
Me and mine is just another appearance, another part of manifestation within the whole.
I have always had the tendency to want to return to the source, to the heart center, to the seat of consciousness as Ramana Maharshi calls it, but this is just appearance also.
The whole of the manifestation is "It" , is "God" , is the manifestation.
There is not one part of "It" that is more "It" than any other part.
So what I am saying is that the heart center, the inner dimension is just another part of the manifestation, it is sacred as everything else is, but it is not special in any other way.
Except perhaps it appears to be the entry point of the unmanifested into the manifested.
The way it is unfolding in you is truly amazing!!! You have put it so well!