Hi everyone
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You mean no self is a kind of feeling?Originally posted by Cenarious:i can feel no self best right after i wake up from a sleep
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its not?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You mean no self is a kind of feeling? -
Whatever feeling it is, there is no feeler. That is no self. No self is a truth, a dharma seal, it is not something you can feel temporarily and then stop feeling later on.Originally posted by Cenarious:its not? -
my "self" wakes up and takes over after like some hours of waking upOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Whatever feeling it is, there is no feeler. That is no self. No self is a truth, a dharma seal, it is not something you can feel temporarily and then stop feeling later on.
but i dont notice it. i only found that out after last night someone on another msg board specifically pointed me out and show plain prejudice to me. -
It cannot be that common as no one else on the discussion boards I have frequented have mentioned experiencing this. The only other person I have heard talk of this is Adyashanti, he is a spiritual teacher coming from a Buddhist background. He speaks of being "touched" repeatedly and talks about the action of the arising energy as a "roto rooter" action, of getting rid of all the old internal egoic structures.
There are, and there is someone else who posted in my forum before who had similar experiences as you. His name is casino_king. He has experienced the life force.. or the breathe of life. The vitality aspect. He stopped posting a few months back, wonder if he's still looking into this forum. He's more into Christianity, but people in the Christian forum (~*~Eternal Hope~*~) thinks he's nuts when he says he's "born of spirit".
But he is also arrogant, and things that he doesn't know and wishes to know, he'll pretend he knows and somehow try to get us to answer his questions. He also doesn't want to speak openly about his own experience on the forum. He does admit though, when I PM him.You must master the art of going beyond symbols to loosen this bond. You may want to look into insight meditation (mindfulness) for this. The purpose of going beyond symbols, labels and concepts is to experience the imageless reality and the veil that prevents us from experiencing this Presence is the layer after layers of conceptualization. The ‘key’ is to loosen the habitual propensities that bond us into seeing things with a layer symbols, it is karmic (Karmic in the sense that it is pre-conscious and sustained by the seed of attachment. It goes undetected at the conscious level). Once this bond is loosen, clarity and energy will flow more freely. Before that, division will cause pain.
Insight meditation does not necessarily mean sitting meditation.. it is basically about Mindfulness.
This is a good book to begin with (the whole book is available online), and Thusness recommended as written by a great practitioner: Mindfulness In Plain English
Other than that, I do not know what other materials are good on Vipassana, because I am not really into Vipassana. -
and i realise that listening to shaman king's sheiji no shisha makes my self wake up faster. i think its a habit of my self wanting to dance to songs of this kind.
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There is no self at all to wake up.Originally posted by Cenarious:and i realise that listening to shaman king's sheiji no shisha makes my self wake up faster. i think its a habit of my self wanting to dance to songs of this kind. -
ok, delusion waking upOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:There is no self at all to wake up. -
Mon dieu~! Vous parles francais !Originally posted by JonLS:Bonjour alexkusu,
Je suis canadien et je parle francais aussi.
Qui est ton petit chou?
Je n'ayez pas petit chou 
Mais j'espere trouver un
..ou deux ...ou peut-etre trois
alors je peux avoir menage a trois
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Yes thats right, my Master called Tao Te Ching a great work of qing1 jing4 wu1 wei1Originally posted by sinweiy:http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Lao+Tzu+is+Pratyekabuddha&fr=FP-tab-web-t909&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8
xabir2005 is AEN btw.
i didn't know Great Master Han Shan also got mentioned. all i only heard was from Master Shen Kai.
i praised the Tao Te Ching too. u can see the profound begining phrase abt ignorance is the root cause. that's very advance realisation to me as mentioned in Shurangama Sutra.
http://www.chinapage.com/laotze2n.html#01
/\
And it is not only my Master who called Lao Tzu a Pratyekabuddha. History has shown many enlightened Ch'an master endorse the teachings of Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching), and some of them have believed that Lao Tzu is an incarnation of Ven. Mahakasyapa (even today, like Master Hsuan Hua). I do not know Ven Mahakasyapa, but what I mean is that Lao Tzu is certainly of high level of attainment and realisation.
And as for the lama/rinpoche that loved Lao Tzu also, it is Dzogsar Khyentse Rinpoche. (p.s utpala = _wanderer_/Path), this conversation took place a year ago:[23:35] btw have u read taoist text b4? tao te ching?
"It is a deep respect a practitioner has for him that one say he is a Pratyekabuddha. The more one knows, the more respect one gives. It is up to individual, not to emphasize anything.
[23:35] wat u tink about it
[23:36] a bit of tao te ching lor
[23:36] yeah love it
[23:36] oic
[23:36] does ur guru mention tao te ching also?
[23:36] hahaha
[23:36] of coz hehe
[23:36] he loves it too
[23:36] o hahaha
[23:36] cool
[23:36] he often said
[23:36] it's a pity that the Chinese picked up more from Confucianism than Taoism
[23:36] icic..
[23:38] he's also pretty certain that lao tzu is somewhat enlightened
[23:39] yup.. but unfortunately he's only pratyekabuddha, just disappeared into nowhere
[23:39] lol
[23:39] it's ok lah, very meritorious liao" - ThusnessAccording to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body to attain the realm of wu[u] or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu[v] or emptiness. These teachings are similar to those of the vehicles of `Sraavakas and Pratyekabuddhas. He is like a Pratyekabuddha because he having lived in the time before Buddhism came to China, realized the truth of non-being by contemplating the changing nature of the world. Judging from the fact that he regards emptiness, non-being, and tzu-jan[w] or spontaneity as the final principles, his teachings are heterodox. But judging from the facts that his heart was full of compassion for the salvation of the world and that he attained the realm in which man and heaven mutually penetrate each other and in which being and non-being mutually reflect each other, he is also like a Bodhisattva. From the viewpoint of experience or skillful means, he was really (a Bodhisattva) appearing in the form of Brahmaa in order to teach the world. From the viewpoint of reality, he was the one who had attained the samaadhi of emptiness through pure living according to the vehicles of men and heaven.
I have also posted before:
- Master Han-ShanOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:
(p.s Thusness later commented that Chuang Tzu stressed more on the Vitality aspect of Tao, not much on Luminosity)
Lao Tzu is also an enlightened being (my master and master han shan says he belongs to the 'Pratyekabuddha' catergory), and Thusness also agrees. The Tao that Lao Tzu spoke of, and the Buddhist Tao is essentially the same. Thusness used to to have an experienced Taoist master too I heard.
The problem with Taoism nowadays is, I believe, too mixed with spirit practises/spirit mediumship. The spirit written in the webpage is different from the spirit I am talking about.
However other than Lao Tzu, I am not sure if there are anyone else as enlightened as him (as in Taoism). My Master says probably only Lao Tzu is fully enlightened. Thusness also agrees. I ask him what's his views of Chuang Tzu then, he seems to suggest, not complete.
[23:09] hi
[23:09] u used to say lao tzu was enlightened rite?
[23:09] yes
[23:10] how about chuang tzu?
[23:10] and did tao te ching teach impermanence, conditioned arising, etc?
[23:10] not as precise like buddhism. Buddhism almost make it a science.
[23:10] oic
[23:11] then how about chuang tzu
[23:11] the steps are so precise.
[23:11] ya
[23:11] true.. tao te ching is so short
[23:11] do u read chuang tzu teachings?
[23:11] chuang tzu is different, only the no-doing aspect until luminosity is clear.
[23:12] icic
[23:12] so
[23:12] but lao-tze is deep and profound. What really has been spoken.
[23:12] is there anyone else in taoism as enlightened as lao tzu
[23:12] icic..
[23:12] nothing really only the 5000 words.
[23:19] even with all our experience when reading the text, will make us feel shallow.
[23:19] will put us into stillness and at once in line with Tao.
[23:19] The Thusness simply flows.
[23:20] it is a different approach. But not to belittle tao de jing.
Tao Te Ching
True Taoism is not very common, it is nothing like what we commonly see nowadays. For more info, you can refer to a previous topic in this forum, Buddhism and Taoism. When we say Lao Tzu is enlightened, we have to be very careful because what Taoists practise does not necessarily link up with Lao Tzu and his teaching. Emphasize is very very different.
It has also not much got to do with things like alchemy, etc. -
My Taiwanese teacher has also stressed a lot on self-so especially in his recent talk. It is a deeper talk in continuation to another talk given a few years ago. It is about the profoundest level of Presence. In fact... Thusness mentions that it is because Lao Tzu has stressed so much on Self-So, that his idea of Buddha Nature can be considered similar to Buddhism.
It would not be right if lao tze did not stress about self-so so intensely
Another teaching of Lao Tzu is on Transformation, which clearly shows his idea of 'Tao' is quite different from other mystics' understanding of 'Source'.
Because he said even Tao follows the path of self-so, it is without doubt that what he meant is the ultimate way and Tao is the Buddha's nature in buddhism.
Very few non-Buddhist mystics will come to that level of realisation, but nevertheless, Lao Tzu spoke so little - unlike the Buddha, who taught the steps so clearly, that it is a very systematic and scientific approach to Truth.
Anyway here are part of his comments after attending one of my Taiwanese teacher's talks which he liked in which he also mentioned about Lao Tzu.<^john^> my opinion is best follow buddha...step by step.
----
oic
<^john^> though it is not wrong, it doesn't serve much purpose, for those that know, they know not through teaching and speech.
not wrong to what
<^john^> to tok about the self-arising nature
icic
<^john^> and this cannot be taught, can only be experienced.
oic
i wrote in the forum about Tao,
Tao in its self-so, is called Thus.
this Self-So penetrate heaven and earth, cannot be named or defined.
But the systematic approach isn't taught.
icic..
first experience the clarity presence and no-self emptiness truth.
step by step...
if the mind rest itself upon nothing as a result of understanding emptiness
emptiness does not permit centricity
there is no place to stay put
icic
no self is permited in this tathagata arising.
oic
but if there is no clarity and luminosity then all phenomenon existence will not be experienced as the non-arising conciousness.
icic
we must come to this experience of all is Consciousness in terms of Luminosity
all phenomenon existence is Consciousness
but pops in and out of existence this is its emptiness nature
oic
but when this 2 aspects are understood as a whole, it becomes the one Thusness flow.
icic..
that is self-liberating, abiding, pure, luminous and bliss.
in all moment and every arising is just so.
this is the ultimate nature.
oic
when we fully understood this, we are true yogi.
we do not stop anything or reject anything
emotion, thought...etc all formation
just arises and subsides
we see this nature and don't pan yuan
icic..
but this cannot be taught.
oic
it can only come in its own course.coz true taoist masters know that it will reach tao
and come to the experience of the true power of self-so.
zhi rain
zhi ran
a strength that just grows by itself
self arise
icic..
naturally luminous
oic
so the elimination is based on such understanding because they know it.
they have already experienced it.
oic
so they are not afraid to tell their followers to eliminate till none.
icic..
as long as it is not theoritical and they truely practice, they will know. -
Copied from the topic:
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
From Chit Chat forum, year 2002 (the oldest and first Taoist thread in sgforums) - and also the best introduction to Lao Tzu I found in sgforums.
Lao Tzu: Father of Taoism
[b]Lao Tzu - founder of Taoism
Although ascetics and hermits such as Shen Tao (who advocated that one 'abandon knowledge and discard self') first wrote of the 'Tao' it is with the sixth century B.C. philosopher Lao Tzu (or 'Old Sage' -- born Li Erh) that the philosophy of Taoism really began. Some scholars believe was a slightly older contemporary of Confucius (Kung-Fu Tzu, born Chiu Chung-Ni). Other scholars feel that the Tao Te Ching, is really a compilation of paradoxical poems written by several Taoists using the pen-name, Lao Tzu. There is also a close association between Lao Tzu and the legendary Yellow Emperor, Huang-ti.
According to legend Lao Tzu was keeper of the archives at the imperial court. When he was eighty years old he set out for the western border of China, toward what is now Tibet, saddened and disillusioned that men were unwilling to follow the path to natural goodness. At the border (Hank Pass), a guard, Yin Xi (Yin Hsi), asked Lao Tsu to record his teachings before he left. He then composed in 5,000 characters the Tao Te Ching (The Way and Its Power).
Confucius.
Whatever the truth, Taoism and Confucianism have to be seen side-by-side as two distinct responses to the social, political and philosophical conditions of life two and a half millennia ago in China. Whereas Confucianism is greatly concerned with social relations, conduct and human society, Taoism has a much more individualistic and mystical character, greatly influenced by nature.
In Lao Tzu's view things were said to create "unnatural" action (wei) by shaping desires (yu). The process of learning the names (ming) used in the doctrines helped one to make distinctions between good and evil, beautiful and ugly, high and low, and "being" (yu) and "non- being" (wu), thereby shaping desires. To abandon knowledge was to abandon names, distinctions, tastes and desires. Thus spontaneous behavior (wu-wei) resulted.
The Taoist philosophy can perhaps best be summed up in a quote from Chuang Tzu:
"To regard the fundamental as the essence, to regard things as coarse, to regard accumulation as deficiency, and to dwell quietly alone with the spiritual and the intelligent -- herein lie the techniques of Tao of the ancients."
One element of Taoism is a kind of existential skepticism, something which can already be seen in the philosophy of Yang Chu (4th century B.C.) who wrote:
"What is man's life for? What pleasure is there in it? Is it for beauty and riches? Is it for sound and colour? But there comes a time when beauty and riches no longer answer the needs of the heart, and when a surfeit of sound and colour becomes a weariness to the eyes and a ringing in the ears.
"The men of old knew that life comes without warning, and as suddenly goes. They denied none of their natural inclinations, and repressed none of their bodily desires. They never felt the spur of fame. They sauntered through life gathering its pleasures as the impulse moved them. Since they cared nothing for fame after death, they were beyond the law. For name and praise, sooner or later, a long life or short one, they cared not at all."
Contemplating the remarkable natural world Lao Tzu felt that it was man and his activities which constituted a blight on the otherwise perfect order of things. Thus he counseled people to turn away from the folly of human pursuits and to return to one's natural wellspring.
The five colours blind the eye.
The five tones deafen the ear.
The five flavours dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Precious things lead one astray.
Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.
He lets go of that and chooses this.
The central vehicle of achieving tranquillity was the Tao, a term which has been translated as 'the way' or 'the path.' Te in this context refers to virtue and Ching refers to laws. Thus the Tao Te Ching could be translated as The Law (or Canon) of Virtue and it's Way. The Tao was the central mystical term of the Lao Tzu and the Taoists, a formless, unfathomable source of all things.
Look, it cannot be seen - it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard - it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held - it is intangible.
These three are indefinable, they are one.
From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark:
Unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
Form of the formless,
Image of the imageless,
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.
Stand before it - there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the Tao, Move with the present.
Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.
Lao Tzu has Yin Xi appear to the Barbarian as the Buddha.
Lao Tsu taught that all straining, all striving are not only vain but counterproductive. One should endeavor to do nothing (wu-wei). But what does this mean? It means not to literally do nothing, but to discern and follow the natural forces -- to follow and shape the flow of events and not to pit oneself against the natural order of things. First and foremost to be spontaneous in ones actions.
In this sense the Taoist doctrine of wu-wei can be understood as a way of mastering circumstances by understanding their nature or principal, and then shaping ones actions in accordance with these. This understanding has also infused the approach to movement as it is developed in Tai Chi Chuan.
Understanding this, Taoist philosophy followed a very interesting circle. On the one hand the Taoists, rejected the Confucian attempts to regulate life and society and counseled instead to turn away from it to a solitary contemplation of nature. On the other hand they believed that by doing so one could ultimately harness the powers of the universe. By 'doing nothing' one could 'accomplish everything.' Lao Tzu writes:
The Tao abides in non-action,
Yet nothing is left undone.
If kings and lords observed this,
The ten thousand things would develop naturally.
If they still desired to act,
They would return to the simplicity of formless substance.
Without form there is no desire.
Without desire there is tranquillity.
In this way all things would be at peace.
In this way Taoist philosophy reached out to council rulers and advise them of how to govern their domains. Thus Taoism, in a peculiar and roundabout way, became a political philosophy. The formulation follows these lines:
The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who never fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful.
From a solitary contemplation of nature, far removed from the affairs of men, can emerge a philosophy that has, both in a critical as well a constructive sense -- a direct and practical political message. Lao Tzu writes:
Why are people starving?
Because the rulers eat up the money in taxes.
Therefore the people are starving.
Why are the people rebellious?
Because the rulers interfere too much.
Therefore they are rebellious.
Why do people think so little of death?
Because the rulers demand too much of life.
Therefore the people take life lightly.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.[/b] -
Please read especially the last two paragraphsOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:
Oh, found Chuang Tzu's biography - same source and website as the Lao Tzu's one
Lao Tzu
Chuang Tzu
-------
Chuang Tzu (399 - 295 B.C.) has always been an influential Chinese philosopher. His writing is at once transcendental while at the same time being deeply immersed within everyday life. He is at peace while at the same time moving through the world. There is a deep vein of mysticism within him which is illuminated by his very rational nature. His style of writing with its parables and conversations both accessible while at the same time pointing to deeper issues.
Chuang Tzu took the Taoist position of Lao Tzu and developed it further. He took Lao Tzu's mystical leanings and perspectives and made them transcendental. His understanding of virtue (te) as Tao individualized in the nature of things is much more developed and clearly stated. There is also a greater and more exact attention to Nature and the human place within it which also leads to his greater emphasis on the individual.
A very interesting and new notion which he brought into Chinese philosophy is that of self-transformation as a central precept in the Taoist process (an understanding that has also penetrated to the heart of Tai Chi Chuan). He believed in life as dynamic and ever changing, making him akin to both Heraclitus and Hegel in these regards. In general, our contemporary understanding of Taoist philosophy is deeply predicated on a very thorough intermingling of the ideas of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.
Chuang Tzu believed that life is transitory and that the pursuit of wealth and personal aggrandizement were vain follies, which distracted from seeing and understanding the world and contemplating its meaning. He strove to see nature with new eyes. For instance:
"Do the heaven's revolve? Does the earth stand still? Do the sun and the moon contend for their positions? Who has the time to keep them all moving? Is there some mechanical device that keeps them going automatically? Or do they merely continue to revolve, inevitably, of their own inertia?
"Do the clouds make rain? Or is it the rain that makes the clouds? What makes it descend so copiously? Who is it that has the leisure to devote himself, with such abandoned glee, to making these things happen?"
Chuang Tzu felt it was imperative that we transcend all the dualities of existence. Seeing Nature at work and the way in which it reconciled these polar opposites pointed the way to the Tao where all dualities are resolved into unity.
"The universe is the unity of all things. If one recognizes his identity with this unity, then the parts of his body mean no more to him than so much dirt, and death and life, end and beginning, disturb his tranquillity no more than the succession of day and night."
And:
"The sage has the sun and the moon by his side. He grasps the universe under his arm. He blends everything into a harmonious whole, casts aside whatever is confused or obscured, and regards the humble as honorable. While the multitude toil, he seems to be stupid and non-discriminative. He blends the disparities of ten thousand years into one complete purity. All things are blended like this and mutually involve each other."
As to the nature of the Tao itself Chuang Tzu's conception was remarkably similar to that of Lao Tzu.
"Tao has reality and evidence but no action or physical form. It may be transmitted but cannot be received. It may be obtained but cannot be seen. It is based in itself, rooted in itself. Before Heaven and Earth came into being, Tao existed by itself for all time. It gave spirits and rulers their spiritual powers. It created Heaven and Earth. It is above the zenith but is not high. It is beneath the nadir but is not low. It is prior to Heaven and Earth but is not old. It is more ancient than the highest antiquity but is not regarded as long ago.'
One of Chuang Tzu's continuing interests was the issue of the interchangibility of appearance and reality. He sometimes asks (almost in a Cartesian way), 'How can we be sure of what we are seeing?
"Those who dream of the banquet may weep the next morning, and those who dream of weeping may go out to hunt after dawn. When we dream we do not know that we are dreaming. In our dreams we may even interpret our dreams. Only after we are awake do we know that we have dreamed. But there comes a great awakening, and then we know that life is a great dream. But the stupid think they are awake all the time and believe they know it distinctly.
"Once I, Chuang Tzu, dreamed I was a butterfly and was happy as a butterfly. I was conscious that I was quite pleased with myself, but I did not know that I was Tzu. Suddenly I awoke, and there was I, visibly Tzu. I do not know whether it was Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly or the butterfly dreaming that he was Tzu. Between Tzu and the butterfly there must be some distinction. [But one may be the other.] This is called the transformation of things."
By exploring such paradoxes Chaung Tzu reveals that much of the meaning of the world is bound up in apparent contradictions.
Taoist philosophy exerted a great influence on the developing school of Chan (Zen) Buddhism in China. Many of the understandings of Taoists and Zen Buddhists are very similar.
"The mind of the perfect man is like a mirror. It does not lean forward or backward in response to things. It responds to things but conceals nothing of its own. Therefore it is able to deal with things without injury to [its reality]."
This is a very similar metaphor to that of Zen (and for that matter Confucianism). The difference is that for Zen Buddhists it indicates a reality which has to be transcended to attain enlightenment, whereas for Taoists and Confucians it is a metaphor for reality which needs to be responded to faithfully (like a mirror).
Finally, of death:
"The universe gives me my body so that I may be carried, my life so I may toil; my old age so I may repose, and my death so I may rest. To regard life as good is the way to regard death as good. A boat may be hidden in a creek or a mountain in a lake. These may be said to be safe. But at midnight a strong man may come and carry it away on his back. An ignorant person does not know that even when the hiding of things, large or small, is perfectly well done, still something will escape you. But if the universe is hidden in the universe itself, then there can be no escape from it. This is the great truth of things in general.
We posses our body by chance and we are already pleased with it. If our physical bodies went through ten thousand transformations without end, how incomparable would this joy be! Therefore the sage roams freely in the realm in which nothing can escape and all endures. Those who regard dying a premature death, getting old, and the beginning and the end of life as equally good are followed by others. How much more is that to which all things belong and on which the whole process of transformation depends (that is, Tao)?"It is worth noting that there is no sign in either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu of a religious inclination (ascribing events and processes to a pantheon of deities, etc.) of the kind which later adherents beset Taoism with. Taoism evolved as a philosophy without the religious trappings that later followers felt they had to add to the movement.
It is also free of any trace of divination, alchemy, searches for an elixir of life and all the other strains of occultism that later attached themselves to this philosophy. -
Sorry for pasting so much here, just want to make sure that there is no one who will spread misunderstanding of what I am saying as I know some people are already ready to criticise me. In fact, my master emphasized a lot on the problems and superstitions that 'modern taoism' has, and certainly does not endorse anything after 'Zhang Daolin' came into scene and created religious taoism.
By the way, most English translations, including the one above I posted, is not really good. In fact it's way off from the original Chinese meaning. Tao Te Ching is the second most translated text after Bible, but really, so far I have only seen one or two translation that can 'make it', and they are not found online.
For example, a common translation:The tao that can be described
A more proper translation would be:
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken
is not the eternal Name.
The nameless is the boundary of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of creation.
Freed from desire, you can see the hidden mystery.
By having desire, you can only see what is visibly real.
Yet mystery and reality
emerge from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
Darkness born from darkness.
The beginning of all understanding.The DAO that can be expressed
is not the eternal DAO.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal name.
“Non-existence” I call the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
“Existence” I call the mother of individual beings.
Therefore does the direction towards non-existence
lead to the sight of the miraculous essence,
the direction towards existence
to the sight of spatial limitations.
Both are one in origin
and different only in name.
In its unity it is called the secret.
The secretÂ’s still deeper secret
is the gateway through which all miracles emerge. -
Hi Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Longchen,
You mentioned you have had similar experiences to mine in the past, could you please elaborate. Have those experiences stopped?
I agree with what you say here but there is one thing I would like to mention. Eckhart speaks of meeting people in the noise and guiding them into the silence, perhaps his descriptions were meant for people just starting out on the path.
Those experiences have not stop.. but i am not so bothered about whether they come or not... as compared to the past. In another word, i do not seek for certain experiences as much.
I am now more into the process of 'letting go'... a subtle letting go brought about by spontaneous/intuitive self-recognisition.
What i have noticed is that gripping and seeking is a most prevalent tendency of the human mind... both before and after the first awakening to Presence. In fact, suffering comes from the gripping and seeking...The human mind sticks to any expereinces that it likes and rejects any expereinces that it dislike... both are forms of attachments. So i guess the key is subtle letting go... that is uncontrived.
regards.. just my opinion though -
It is worth noting that there is no sign in either Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu of a religious inclination (ascribing events and processes to a pantheon of deities, etc.) of the kind which later adherents beset Taoism with. Taoism evolved as a philosophy without the religious trappings that later followers felt they had to add to the movement.
wu jing sheng taiji
It is also free of any trace of divination, alchemy, searches for an elixir of life and all the other strains of occultism that later attached themselves to this philosophy.
taiji sheng si xiang
si xiang sheng ba gua
ba gua sheng wan wu
Later the above evolutes into I-ching a form of divination
Alchemy, yes wai dan (external pill) and nei dan (internal pill)
Wai dan skills seems to be lost forever...who don't want just eat a pill and become an immortal straight away?
As for nei dan skills it is still there but only through mouth is the skill taught
Occultism started when people misinterpret other Taoism books and gain supernatural powers -
It is not what you said. Check out your PMOriginally posted by maggot:wu jing sheng taiji
taiji sheng si xiang
si xiang sheng ba gua
ba gua sheng wan wu
Later the above evolutes into I-ching a form of divination
Alchemy, yes wai dan (external pill) and nei dan (internal pill)
Wai dan skills seems to be lost forever...who don't want just eat a pill and become an immortal straight away?
As for nei dan skills it is still there but only through mouth is the skill taught
Occultism started when people misinterpret other Taoism books and gain supernatural powers
Ok. Let this be the last post on Taoism here, others more people will start criticising me.. And anyway.. this topic is supposed to be for Jon to clarify his experience -
CheckedOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:It is not what you said. Check out your PM
yi ren de dao...ji quan sheng tian
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No, not the short one, the long PM which I just sent you.Originally posted by maggot:Checked
yi ren de dao...ji quan sheng tian -
ic...Originally posted by JonLS:I think this bond was broken momentarily after the energy arose this morning. I had the distinct impression of "seeing" clearly (of seeing things as they really are) and yes! It did feel like a hypnotic bond was broken but unfortunately the clear seeing only lasted a few moments and then the veil fell again. There was the distinct seeing that there was "no one home", that the egoic me was not there, was not real.
This veil lifted like this a year ago also when there was letting go of identification with thought, but obviously it has not lifted completely yet.
If we listen attentively, the sound, is it out there?
If we open our eyes and see, the sky, is it up there?
If there is the slightest sensation that it is either outside there or inside here, the bond is at work. This is how subtle it can be.
I like the way you expressed it, but if there is no one there from beginning, how does "I" am the problem comes about?
"I" am the problem!
This is the difference between having a level to achieve by doing away the 'I' and nothing is attained ultimately. The 'bond' breaks from a deep clarity of insight that 'I' never existed, therefore all effort to do-away the 'I' is illusionary and all effort directed is to bring us to this realisation.
Good luck! -
Sorry for getting off topic
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According to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body to attain the realm of wu or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu or emptiness.
Hi An Eternal Now,
Please read the above quote paying close attention to what is underlined and then go back and reread this thread, reread all the stuff you have posted.Sorry for pasting so much here, just want to make sure that there is no one who will spread misunderstanding of what I am saying as I know some people are already ready to criticise me.
Is there really a "you" that needs to be defended???What i have noticed is that gripping and seeking is a most prevalent tendency of the human mind... both before and after the first awakening to Presence. In fact, suffering comes from the gripping and seeking...The human mind sticks to any expereinces that it likes and rejects any expereinces that it dislike... both are forms of attachments. So i guess the key is subtle letting go... that is uncontrived.
Hi longchen,
regards.. just my opinion though
I'm a fine one to be giving AnEternalNow advice, since I too am here asking for advice. But somehow this seeking is no longer that important, it is happening but I am also aware of how inconsistent I am being with regard to what I know.
I know there is no separate other and yet I still seem to be acting as if there is. Rather funny really.
And the very fact that I am still seeking presupposes there is a "problem" and in fact there is a knowing that there is not.
And so I seem to be acting like a puppet, continuing the search when in fact there is nothing to search for and no one doing the seach.
Now that is hilarious!!!
I must confess I really don't know what I'm doing on these boards. Perhaps just having fun. I really enjoy sharing with others. -
No no.. no attacker and no defender.. just moderatingOriginally posted by JonLS:Is there really a "you" that needs to be defended???
But i'm sorry for causing so much 'noise' in your topic.. -
By the way, my name JonLS is from the book and movie called Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Have you seen the movie?
If not it would be worth renting.
Wonderful story.
On a personal note:
Another thing I would like to say is that all guidance is coming from within, the only thing necessary is to allow this to happen unimpeded by thought or by a "someone" who thinks he knows better.
I must be honest here and say that the heavy emphasis I see here on these boards with regard to Buddhist beliefs may actually be doing more harm than good for many of you. Not that that is really a problem. There really are no problems. I will finish by that quote again:According to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body to attain the realm of wu or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu or emptiness.
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how long before your habits start attacking again?