Interest in Zen
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Greetings, I have an interest in Chinese's Zen Buddhism but after reading the threads here, I found that most of the Ju Shi here practice other form of Buddhism. I wonder if there's anyone that practices Zen or has knowledge of Zen and will be benevolent to share your knowledge with me. Thanks
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maybe An Eternal Now can helpOriginally posted by wisefool83:Greetings, I have an interest in Chinese's Zen Buddhism but after reading the threads here, I found that most of the Ju Shi here practice other form of Buddhism. I wonder if there's anyone that practices Zen or has knowledge of Zen and will be benevolent to share your knowledge with me. Thanks
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what do u want to know abt zen buddhismOriginally posted by wisefool83:Greetings, I have an interest in Chinese's Zen Buddhism but after reading the threads here, I found that most of the Ju Shi here practice other form of Buddhism. I wonder if there's anyone that practices Zen or has knowledge of Zen and will be benevolent to share your knowledge with me. Thanks
the lingji lineage (rinzai ) or soto zen (cao dong ) lineage ?
the Koan or the Platform sutra
silent illumination or Lasting Imprint Seal of the mind (Ying Xin)
i can answer some of your question -
Seriously, I'm only a interested party and had not previous experience with any. I really don't know the difference between them. Could you give me a brief intro of each of them? At the moment, I'm reading modern Zen (Xian Dai Chan) by Li Yuan SongOriginally posted by bohiruci:what do u want to know abt zen buddhism
the lingji lineage (rinzai ) or soto zen (cao dong ) lineage ?
the Koan or the Platform sutra
silent illumination or Lasting Imprint Seal of the mind (Ying Xin)
i can answer some of your question -
hmm Li yuan song chan ... I know he writes alot on chan ,but I would be more preferably likeOriginally posted by wisefool83:Seriously, I'm only a interested party and had not previous experience with any. I really don't know the difference between them. Could you give me a brief intro of each of them? At the moment, I'm reading modern Zen (Xian Dai Chan) by Li Yuan Song
ven sheng yen of Dharma Drum Monastery (Fa gu shan ) -
Li yuan song
born in 1957 in the province in shi ding village, taiwan
Well, there is a lot of controversy around this person .
I hope you will be encouraged to read zen teaching from ven master sheng yen and other famous venerables -
read wikipedia on zen
u will understand
SOto zen (cao dong ) lineage
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Sōtō (曹洞宗; Japanese: Sōtō-shū, Chinese: Caodong-zong) is one of the two major Japanese Zen sects (the other being Rinzai). It is an extension or subbranch of the Chinese Caodong, which was brought to Japan by Dogen Zenji (1200–1253), and which after his death became known as the Soto school. It now has a significant presence in North America as well as throughout the West.
Contents [hide]
1 Characteristics
2 History
3 Important texts
4 See also
5 References
[edit]
Characteristics
With 14,700 temples and nearly 7 million adherents (in 1989) Soto is the largest Zen sect in Japan, vastly surpassing Rinzai and Obaku. In Japanese history, Soto gained ground among provincial rulers and ordinary people, while Rinzai won the support of the central samurai government.
Soto is practiced both in Japan and in the West, and stresses shikantaza meditation as a means of completely eliminating the mind and body as a conscious entity; with enlightenment realized at the arrival of what can be considered 'pure existence'.
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History
The characteristics of Soto as a distinct style of Zen go back to Shih-t'ou Hsi-ch'ien (J. Sekito Kisen, 700–790) who led an important practice center in the mountains of Hunan province in China. From this school there developed three different schools of Zen of which Soto is one, being founded by Tung-shan Liang-chieh (807–869) in China. Its transmission to Japan was done by Eihei Dogen Zenji (1200–1253). As in the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, a senior monk will be appointed to be a lineage bearer in a Dharma Transmission ceremony. This monk will have previously been acknowledged to have some degree of enlightenment or satori by an acknowledged Zen master, as well as having lived and served for some decades in a Zen monastery. The lineage documents typically trace the chain of transmission back to Gautama Buddha, the original historical Buddha and founder of Buddhism. -
Rinzai school
The Rinzai school (ÅRœg×Ú; Japanese: Rinzai-sh¨±, Chinese: Linji-zong) is one of the two major Japanese Zen sects.
The Rinzai school is known for its emphasis on sudden enlightenment and many years of practice using the koan method to achieve this end. Rinzai is the Japanese branch of the Chinese Linji school, which was founded during the Tang Dynasty by Linji Yixuan. It was brought to Japan by My¨Âan Eisai in 1191.
Contents [hide]
1 Characteristics
1.1 Martial arts
1.2 Koan
1.3 Tea ceremony
2 Later developments
3 References
[edit]
Characteristics
Rinzai is not a single organized body. Rather, it is divided into fifteen sects, referred to by the name of their head temples. The largest and most influential of these is the Myoshin-ji branch, whose head temple was founded in 1342 by Kanzan Egen Zenji (1277 - 1360). Other major branches include Nanzen-ji, Tenryu-ji, Daitoku-ji, and Tofuku-ji.
Rinzai encourages an active pursuit of enlightenment, through the intellectual shock of the Koans, or the strenuous efforts and high-discipline of martial arts. It can be contrasted to S¨Ât¨ Zen, which insists on "just-sitting" (Shikantaza) as the method of choice to reveal the innate Buddha nature in everyone.
My¨Âan Eisai, founder of the Rinzai School of Zen in Japan, 12th century.Rinzai was adopted by the samurai caste, whereas S¨Ât¨ had a more popular following, as described in the Japanese saying "Rinzai for the Sh¨Âgun, S¨Ât¨ for the peasants" (JPN: "Ã…RÂœg½«ÜŠ¡¢²Ü¶´Ã�Ã�Ãñ" Rinzai Sh¨Âgun, S¨Ât¨ Domin).
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Martial arts
The Rinzai school has historically been closely linked to various martial arts traditions in Japan.
In pre-modern Japan, Rinzai was widely popular among the warrior aristocracy and samurai, in distinction from S¨Ât¨ Zen which was more associated with artists and poets. This is due to Rinzai zen's reputation for removing all fear of death via direct experiential transformation of consciousness. For a Samurai, fear of death was naturally a great obstacle, so Rinzai Zen practice was a practical necessity. Rinzai also has relatively greater emphasis on koan literature and intellectual knowledge than does S¨Ât¨Â; this appealed to the educated and literate upper classes. However, one of the most intellectual and literate of pre-modern zen masters was the Soto Zen master Eihei Dogen.
Because the medieval aristocracy was also a warrior class, it became natural for them to apply Rinzai teachings to matters of combat. Some have argued that the Samurai influence co-opted the essential Buddhist origins of Rinzai Zen.
After having faced the opposition of traditional schools of Buddhism in Kyoto, Eisai personally introduced Rinzai Zen to the samurai warrior caste of the Shogun court in Kamakura around 1199.
The predilection of the samurai for Rinzai Zen continued into the Tokugawa period (1600-1867), when it was the regular training regimen of the warrior caste, leading to the development of Bushid¨Â.
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Koan
Koan practice¡ªconcentrating on koans during activities¡ªis particularly important among practictioners of the Rinzai sect of Zen. It is said that Zen masters taught their pupils to meditate on these Koans to rid them of word-drunkenness and mind wandering. The purpose was to get them to experience it rather than think about it, to not waste life using the six senses but just letting things be how they are.
Wuzhun Shifan (1177-1249) was the Chinese teacher of Enni Ben'en, the founder of Tofukuji.Koans are said to reflect the enlightened or awakened state of historical sages and legendary figures who uttered them, and sometimes said to confound the habit of discursive thought or shock the mind into awareness.
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Tea ceremony
The Rinzai school is also particularly associated with the Japanese tea ceremony. Eisai is said to have introduced tea from China to Japan, together with the method of mixing powdered green tea in hot water. Ikkyu in the 15th century developed the tea ceremony in ways that made it prominent in Japanese culture.
Tea, a light stimulant, originally had a spiritual purpose in maintaining meditational wakefulness in Zen monks. One legend attributes the origin of tea in China to Bodhidharma, a 6th century Indian Buddhist missionary, and the first Zen patriarch, who, according to legend, cut off his eyelids to keep awake during meditation. It is said that tea plants grew where his eyelids fell.
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Later developments -
Human Consciousness in The Ch'an Perspective
(Lecture delivered by Master Sheng-yen at Brooklyn College on November 8, 1990)
We have very little time today, so I will give only a brief summary of the Ch'an view of human consciousness.
Today's talk on human consciousness can be divided into three sections; first, the general Buddhist view; second, the Ch'an perspective; and last, the Ch'an approach to the problems that arise from human consciousness.
The General Perspective of Buddhist Practice
Buddhism generally divides human consciousness into false mind and True Mind. False mind, sometimes called the illusory mind, refers to the mental activity of ordinary sentient beings. This mind is filled with innumerable vexations that arise from a self-centered view of the world. True Mind refers to the mind of wisdom, a mind free of vexation. It is true, however, that Buddhism understands the false mind to include all levels of human consciousness and all activities associated with it.
Then what distinguishes the True Mind? True Mind arises only when mental activity is free from self-centeredness. At this point your mind is no longer subject to ordinary human consciousness. When this happens, consciousness is no longer subjective. Only perfect, completely objective activity remains.
Now let us return to false mind. It is important to know that false mind is really what we call human consciousness. Consciousness has two aspects. The first is known as discriminating consciousness. This is taken to be the activities of cognition, of apprehension, and of discrimination (commonly, what we take to be memory, judgment, and reasoning.)
However, there is still an aspect of consciousness which does not make discriminations. (Note that this "aspect" of consciousness really refers to the seventh and eighth consciousness, as understood by the Yogacara, or Consciousness Only school. For the sake of this talk, we will call this aspect, "fundamental consciousness." See Newsletter No.63 for more information concerning the seventh and eighth consciousness.)
According to the Yogacara school, it is this fundamental consciousness which makes a person what he or she is. It is tempting to say that this fundamental consciousness is the "core," "essence," or "true entity" of someone, but these terms are misleading. They make one think of substance, of something material, and this is not the understanding of Buddhism. These terms are sometimes used to define what it is that moves from life to life when a being is reborn, but this is definitely nothing like what Christianity understands to be the soul.
Now, we talk about consciousness in living beings, but do we recognize such a phenomenon in animals? In the West this question is usually answered by the classification of the animal. Mainstream Western science recognizes the presence of consciousness in what are considered "higher animals," such as elephants, monkeys, or cats, but it does not recognize a consciousness in the lower forms of animals, such as earthworms or insects.
Lower life forms may lack discriminating human consciousness, but they still have fundamental consciousness. This is to say that all living beings have consciousness. Thus, Buddhist compassion is directed to all living beings, not just to human beings. In the Buddhist view, all living beings, human or not, can evolve and attain the highest state, Buddhahood.
It is the goal of Buddhist practice to free all living beings from discriminating consciousness, the source of all vexations. And to truly reach liberation we must also be freed from fundamental consciousness, because it is here that our karma is centered. That is, all the seeds of our previous actions and the forces that they exert upon us are stored here. For the True Mind of wisdom to appear, a human being must be free from discriminating consciousness and the karmic force of fundamental consciousness must be defused. This is the direction of Buddhist practice.
But how can we truly tell when we have overcome vexation and reached wisdom? Vexation and wisdom are both mental activities, but the crucial difference is that the mental activities associated with vexations are centered on the self. It is this centering on the self that causes suffering. Wisdom, however, is unconcerned with the self. With wisdom one can see things as they are, untinted by personal subjectivity.
The Ch'an Point of View
Don't get the idea that Ch'an is something different from Buddhism. It is simply a part of Buddhism and its understanding and perspective fall within Buddhism's basic tenets.
In Ch'an we speak of a Buddha mind, which is the same as the True Mind referred to earlier, that is, the mind of wisdom. We also speak of the mind of sentient beings, which is the same as the false mind of vexation.
One important term used in Ch'an can be translated as "to illuminate the mind and perceive Buddha nature." Why does the mind need illumination? It is because the mind of sentient beings is clouded in darkness, and this darkness must be lifted if you are to see the true nature of reality. Thus the term "to illuminate the mind and perceive Buddha nature" has the same meaning as what we described earlier -leaving the mind of vexation behind in order to attain wisdom. So the goal of Ch'an practice is no different than that of Buddhism.
..to be continued -
The goal is the same, but the words are often different. Ch'an does not usually use terms such as "idea" or "discriminating consciousness." Ch'an simply uses the word "mind." Only someone well-versed in the tradition who can read the writings of a Ch'an master is able to tell whether "mind" refers to the Buddha mind or to that of an ordinary sentient being.
Ch'an practice then, revolves around this idea of mind. For the beginning practitioner, the foundation of practice and the path of practice are none other than the mind of vexation -- false mind. But the goal of practice is the Buddha's wisdom, the True Mind.
Let us now talk about consciousness from the Western perspective. There are times when the word, consciousness, as understood in the West, can be used to represent the word mind as it is used in Ch'an. However, the word "consciousness" cannot cover all of the meanings of mind used in the Ch'an tradition.
In the West mental activities are researched, analyzed, and recorded. But can the state of True Mind, the mind of wisdom, be considered a mental activity, and can it bear the scrutiny of Western science?
If we attempt to use "consciousness" to explain True Mind, there will be quite a bit of confusion. It might be possible to say that the True Mind represents a kind of pure, undefiled mental activity and false mind represents impure mental activity, but this would still be unclear. Ch'an simply uses mind and avoids confusion.
When we speak of Ch'an practice, we can see that both the Buddha Mind, and the sentient being mind are not separate from one another. For we look upon the Buddha Mind as the goal of practice and the sentient being mind as the process of practice.
When you first start to practice, it is likely that you will notice that your mind is not at ease, not calm and peaceful. You use a method to change that. Such a method of practice is called "calming the mind." This method can also be called "stilling the mind," in which case the goal is to bring the mind to a standstill. This process can also be thought of as "clarifying and settling the mind." One can use the analogy of a glass of muddy water that becomes clear once the water is still and the mud sinks to the bottom.
The Ch'an Approach to the Problems that Arise from Human Consciousness
The flier that announced this lecture contained two Chinese characters which can be translated as "beginner's mind." What does this mean? This is the mind of an ordinary sentient being who begins to take the first step in turning his or her mind toward illumination. This step is sometimes called, "the initial generation of the Bodhi mind." What is Bodhi? Bodhi is a Sanskrit term which can be translated as enlightenment, awakening, or realization.
The Ch'an approach toward resolving one's problems is quite different from the psychological methods used in the West. In the West a person's problems are the centerpiece of the analysis. They are analyzed, themes and motifs are suggested, and the patient is urged to recognize patterns that have developed from early childhood and break the hold they have upon him.
The approach of Ch'an is different. When a practitioner feels a need to deal with his own problems, he is urged to simply put them down and leave them behind. This does not mean that you should ignore what you have to do. It simply means that you abandon the idea that what confronts you constitutes a "problem." You continue to deal with situations, but you no longer see them as problems. In this way the problems cease to exist.
How do you go about putting aside your problems? The solution arises when you develop compassion for other beings. When you see the vexation and suffering that torments others, you can try to help them resolve their problems and end their suffering. You forget your own problems.
.. to be continued -
The goal is the same, but the words are often different. Ch'an does not usually use terms such as "idea" or "discriminating consciousness." Ch'an simply uses the word "mind." Only someone well-versed in the tradition who can read the writings of a Ch'an master is able to tell whether "mind" refers to the Buddha mind or to that of an ordinary sentient being.
Ch'an practice then, revolves around this idea of mind. For the beginning practitioner, the foundation of practice and the path of practice are none other than the mind of vexation -- false mind. But the goal of practice is the Buddha's wisdom, the True Mind.
Let us now talk about consciousness from the Western perspective. There are times when the word, consciousness, as understood in the West, can be used to represent the word mind as it is used in Ch'an. However, the word "consciousness" cannot cover all of the meanings of mind used in the Ch'an tradition.
In the West mental activities are researched, analyzed, and recorded. But can the state of True Mind, the mind of wisdom, be considered a mental activity, and can it bear the scrutiny of Western science?
If we attempt to use "consciousness" to explain True Mind, there will be quite a bit of confusion. It might be possible to say that the True Mind represents a kind of pure, undefiled mental activity and false mind represents impure mental activity, but this would still be unclear. Ch'an simply uses mind and avoids confusion.
When we speak of Ch'an practice, we can see that both the Buddha Mind, and the sentient being mind are not separate from one another. For we look upon the Buddha Mind as the goal of practice and the sentient being mind as the process of practice.
When you first start to practice, it is likely that you will notice that your mind is not at ease, not calm and peaceful. You use a method to change that. Such a method of practice is called "calming the mind." This method can also be called "stilling the mind," in which case the goal is to bring the mind to a standstill. This process can also be thought of as "clarifying and settling the mind." One can use the analogy of a glass of muddy water that becomes clear once the water is still and the mud sinks to the bottom.
The Ch'an Approach to the Problems that Arise from Human Consciousness
The flier that announced this lecture contained two Chinese characters which can be translated as "beginner's mind." What does this mean? This is the mind of an ordinary sentient being who begins to take the first step in turning his or her mind toward illumination. This step is sometimes called, "the initial generation of the Bodhi mind." What is Bodhi? Bodhi is a Sanskrit term which can be translated as enlightenment, awakening, or realization.
The Ch'an approach toward resolving one's problems is quite different from the psychological methods used in the West. In the West a person's problems are the centerpiece of the analysis. They are analyzed, themes and motifs are suggested, and the patient is urged to recognize patterns that have developed from early childhood and break the hold they have upon him.
The approach of Ch'an is different. When a practitioner feels a need to deal with his own problems, he is urged to simply put them down and leave them behind. This does not mean that you should ignore what you have to do. It simply means that you abandon the idea that what confronts you constitutes a "problem." You continue to deal with situations, but you no longer see them as problems. In this way the problems cease to exist.
How do you go about putting aside your problems? The solution arises when you develop compassion for other beings. When you see the vexation and suffering that torments others, you can try to help them resolve their problems and end their suffering. You forget your own problems.
...to be continued -
Transcending your thoughts, the second category, is a method that consists of maintaining the attitude that you do not care about yourself or others. The goal of this method is roughly described by a Ch'an phrase that translates as, "separate, or free, from the mind, from thoughts, and from consciousness." To be free from all of this is to be in a state of enlightenment.
No matter what method you choose, you must remember that when we practice in the Ch'an tradition, we refrain from using words or speech. Why is this? It is because words represent ideas, concepts, mental descriptions. And it is only by leaving behind these things that we begin to understand the True Mind.
Two Ch'an maxims convey this idea: First, "Any thought is wrong." In other words whatever you are thinking is erroneous, no matter how clear or accurate you believe it to be. And second, "Whatever you say is wrong." No matter how well chosen or clearly spoken, your words rely on thoughts and ideas, and thus, they are fundamentally wrong.
Nonetheless, you will notice that Ch'an masters talk a lot. They sometimes write a lot, also. But the import of what we talk or write about is to convey that whatever you think or say is wrong. That is the content of all of my talks. No words or description will suffice to describe a state of realization. This is not the Ch'an tradition. Anyone who attempted to describe such a state would be considered by a Ch'an master to be a smart devil, not an awakened being.
Therefore, many Ch'an masters use no words when they interact with their disciples. They use movements or gestures. Or sometimes when they do use words it is in an unconventional way. If a student asks a question about A, the master may give an answer that refers to B, something totally unrelated.
These methods are designed to help students to drop the habit of reasoning themselves to True Mind. Reasoning will not free you from mind, thought, or consciousness.
A story from the T'ang dynasty tells of a disciple who asked this question of his Dharma Master: "How can I calm my mind?" The master said, "I'm too busy to talk to you right now. Why not consult your First Dharma Brother?" He did as he was told and asked the same question. The first Dharma Brother said, "I have a headache. I can't talk now. Why not talk to Second Dharma Brother'?" But the second Dharma Brother said, "I have a stomach ache, why don't you just go and talk to our Dharma Master'?" So he went back to his master and complained, "Nobody told me anything. Nobody gave me any answers." But the master said to him reprovingly, "You really are a stupid fool. Everybody has been giving you the answer." Because of this, the disciple reached enlightenment. -
It's advisable for you to read up book by other venerable masters too. Zen, or Ch'an is not something that you could acquire through reading, you need to actualise what you've learnt and really practise it. Example, Venerable Sheng Yan has been propagating the use of Ch'an in daily life. I've joined one of their earlier program, and we've only learnt 3 English words : Put Down and Relax. Though it looks simple, the teaching behind this few words is enormously sophisticated.Originally posted by wisefool83:Seriously, I'm only a interested party and had not previous experience with any. I really don't know the difference between them. Could you give me a brief intro of each of them? At the moment, I'm reading modern Zen (Xian Dai Chan) by Li Yuan Song -
Indeed. I remember reading the story of Liu Zhu, Hui Neng, who was iliterate and used the analogy that words are like fingers pointing to the moon, the moon is the impt thing while words are only tools. I believe in Dun Wu (sudden enlightenment), and is trying to blend the practice into my daily life. However, at times I would wonder if my practice is on the right track and hence I hope to get more expert knowledge to double-checkOriginally posted by coolbluewater:It's advisable for you to read up book by other venerable masters too. Zen, or Ch'an is not something that you could acquire through reading, you need to actualise what you've learnt and really practise it. Example, Venerable Sheng Yan has been propagating the use of Ch'an in daily life. I've joined one of their earlier program, and we've only learnt 3 English words : Put Down and Relax. Though it looks simple, the teaching behind this few words is enormously sophisticated. -
Well if you have any questions you can askOriginally posted by wisefool83:Indeed. I remember reading the story of Liu Zhu, Hui Neng, who was iliterate and used the analogy that words are like fingers pointing to the moon, the moon is the impt thing while words are only tools. I believe in Dun Wu (sudden enlightenment), and is trying to blend the practice into my daily life. However, at times I would wonder if my practice is on the right track and hence I hope to get more expert knowledge to double-check
And we shall discuss the issue.
But anyway, for Zen, it is important to learn directly from a qualified teacher.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:All know the Way, but few actually walk it.
If you don't find a teacher soon, you'll live this life in vain. It's true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher
you'll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher's help.
If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn't need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you're so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you'll understand.
- Bodhidharma -
Any recommendation for teacher?Originally posted by An Eternal Now: -
For the Ch'an/Zen tradition, in Singapore, there is the Dharma Drum Ch'an lineage of Ven. Sheng Yen as Coolbluewater pointed out, and also Kwan Yin Chan Lin Zen Center which follows the Master Seung Sahn lineage (korean zen).Originally posted by wisefool83:Any recommendation for teacher?
Singapore Dharma Drum: http://www.ddsingapore.org/
Kwan Yin Chan Ling: http://www.kyclzen.org/
and more...
Directory: http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/temple.htm -
hi,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:For the Ch'an/Zen tradition, in Singapore, there is the Dharma Drum Ch'an lineage of Ven. Sheng Yen as Coolbluewater pointed out, and also Kwan Yin Chan Lin Zen Center which follows the Master Seung Sahn lineage (korean zen).
Singapore Dharma Drum: http://www.ddsingapore.org/
Kwan Yin Chan Ling: http://www.kyclzen.org/
and more...
Directory: http://www.buddha.sg/htm/general/temple.htm
wat abt the taipei buddhist centre at kallang ?(with a large buddha statue at the top of the building) -
Tai Pei Buddhist Centre is mostly lent out for various organisations for their activities and courses. They do have their own chanting session, as well as buddhist class for the youth and kids.Originally posted by neutral_onliner:hi,
wat abt the taipei buddhist centre at kallang ?(with a large buddha statue at the top of the building)
There's a course on Vipassna (Insight) Meditation, conducted by Ven Chuan Ren at Phor Kark See Monastary, commencing on 2 October 2006. Detail is as follow: