I think I have seen selflessness
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Then you've seen selflessness tooOriginally posted by DriftingGuy:I am totally and absolutely lost within this thread
Just kidding. To summarise, cenarious is debating whether everything is pre-determined by conditions. (btw this topic has nothing to do with selflessness') -
The choice is not determined, but it is conditioned. Being conditioned it is empty of inherent existence.Originally posted by Cenarious:choice or no choice, does it make a difference with regards to fate? what determines the choice that someone chooses? conditions? -
mm but u havent answer my question...Originally posted by Cenarious:Then let me ask you. What determines the choice of someone? Let's say the person is enlightened.
Im not the person, how could i know the answer?
People, situation, turn of events and choices can be unpredictable at times. -
Yes conditions make your choice, and conditions come from other conditions.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The choice is not determined, but it is conditioned. Being conditioned it is empty of inherent existence.
Given that set of conditions at that moment, how would someone who is fully awake make his decisions? -
Depending on how mindful and wise one is.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:But Eckhart Tolle's 'Choice implies consciousness' applies. If you are 'unconscious', then you will simply go along with the conditionings. If conditions are bad, you will grow up as a drug addict, gangster, and screw up. If you are 'conscious', karmic conditions make you live in a drug addict, gangster family, but you grow upright. You are not lured due to 'unconsciousness' into the Step 3 and Step 4 of what Teacher Chen said. So you will not end up in jail. Therefore there is a saying that Buddhadharma can change your 'fate'. This is absolutely true. -
is not the same asOriginally posted by Cenarious:Yes conditions make your choice, and conditions come from other conditions.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The choice is not determined, but it is conditioned. Being conditioned it is empty of inherent existence. -
Isis can you shut up and let me and AEN talk?
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if u request nicely.. i might haveOriginally posted by Cenarious:Isis can you shut up and let me and AEN talk? -
That so called choice is entirely the conditioning itself, it is not an entity that is conditioned from other conditions. Therefore it is empty of any inherent existence , so past, present, future does not apply.Originally posted by Cenarious:Yes conditions make your choice, and conditions come from other conditions.
Given that set of conditions at that moment, how would someone who is fully awake make his decisions?
We must understand that 'choice' or 'decisions' are only ideas, and whatever 'descisions' are made, reality is still empty (of inherent existence).
Also when one made a choice to safe someone, that choice is not caused by anything, the choice is conditioned arising, meaning it is the entire conditioning itself and empty of inherent existence. -
No that's not allowed becos this is an open forum so it is not right to stop others from talking.Originally posted by Cenarious:Isis can you shut up and let me and AEN talk?
Oh and pls watch ur language. -
Yup exactly. So when you detach from "self" wanting to change things it is all fate. And if you think that you can know fate then you are wrong, because that very thought has changed your fate from what you predicted, or something like that. Or you will be a pessimist and you will be right because you will suck.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:That so called choice is entirely the conditioning itself, it is not an entity that is conditioned from other conditions. Therefore it is empty of any inherent existence , so past, present, future does not apply.
We must understand that 'choice' or 'decisions' are only ideas, and whatever 'descisions' are made, reality is still empty (of inherent existence).
Also when one made a choice to safe someone, that choice is not caused by anything, the choice is conditioned arising, meaning it is the entire conditioning itself and empty of inherent existence. -
What exactly do you mean by 'fate'? If everything is predetermined by things caused by the past then nope, because one can change things in the present. Our present action is not just conditioned by the past, or karma. This has already been discussed previously.Originally posted by Cenarious:Yup exactly. So when you detach from "self" wanting to change things it is all fate. And if you think that you can know fate then you are wrong, because that very thought has changed your fate from what you predicted, or something like that. Or you will be a pessimist and you will be right because you will suck. -
no i said at that moment.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:What exactly do you mean by 'fate'? If everything is predetermined by things caused by the past then nope, because one can change things in the present. Our present action is not just conditioned by the past, or karma. This has already been discussed previously.
aiya, i mean that nature is fate. nature of choice, nature of change, nature of existence etc. so maybe the 10th dimension is fate itself! -
what the heck u toking about???Originally posted by Cenarious:no i said at that moment.
aiya, i mean that nature is fate. nature of choice, nature of change, nature of existence etc. so maybe the 10th dimension is fate itself!
I don't quite get your logic. So I have a set of conditions here... but I need not only have 1 choice, I can have 10 choices to deal with this conditions. And our of the 10 choices maybe I chose the 4th choice, but before that it is not determined. Although I chose the 4th choice I cannot say "i am fated to choose the 4th choice" but u can list down ur reasons why u chose the 4th choice. But you are NOT fated due to the reasons that led u to choose the 4th choice. Similarly if you chose the 9th choice u cannot say "i am fated to choose the 9th choice" given that u have 9 other choices available which u can choose and therefore you CANNOT say that you are fated to choose the 9th choice. although, u can give ur reasons/create reasons why u chose the 9th choice.
btw there need not be a definite right or wrong for each choice. if lets say none of the choices does any harm or does any good and is neutral. -
So to conclude, everything that has not happened is indeterminate, and the havent-arisen-result is subjected to further changes from prediction.
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If it was someone not conscious he will go along with karma.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:what the heck u toking about???
I don't quite get your logic. So I have a set of conditions here... but I need not only have 1 choice, I can have 10 choices to deal with this conditions. And our of the 10 choices maybe I chose the 4th choice, but before that it is not determined. Although I chose the 4th choice I cannot say "i am fated to choose the 4th choice" but u can list down ur reasons why u chose the 4th choice. But you are NOT fated due to the reasons that led u to choose the 4th choice. Similarly if you chose the 9th choice u cannot say "i am fated to choose the 9th choice" given that u have 9 other choices available which u can choose and therefore you CANNOT say that you are fated to choose the 9th choice. although, u can give ur reasons/create reasons why u chose the 9th choice.
If it was buddha he would choose the choice that benefits others most. -
I added one more line:Originally posted by Cenarious:If it was someone not conscious he will go along with karma.
If it was buddha he would choose the choice that benefits others most.
btw there need not be a definite right or wrong for each choice. if lets say none of the choices does any harm or does any good and is neutral. -
Thats because of wisdom, not because of fateOriginally posted by Cenarious:If it was someone not conscious he will go along with karma.
If it was buddha he would choose the choice that benefits others most. -
so you think wisdom is real eh? wisdom manifested out of fate or conditions, which is also fate.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Thats because of wisdom, not because of fate -
we always act in se;f interest, the only difference is whats our priorities.
for example to some of us the happiness of others is more important than our own suffering/materialgain/etc, so in that case the act of self-interest is to help others. -
yeah we can't know whats gonna happen, but maybe buddhas can.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:So to conclude, everything that has not happened is indeterminate, and the havent-arisen-result is subjected to further changes from prediction. -
neutral choices are also conditioned. why do you bow down to smell a flower? because you think it smells good.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I added one more line:
btw there need not be a definite right or wrong for each choice. if lets say none of the choices does any harm or does any good and is neutral. -
Wisdom is developed when ignorances is eradicated. Mindfulness and other practises lead to development of wisdom. It requires one putting efforts to practise. This itself is a choice.Originally posted by Cenarious:so you think wisdom is real eh? wisdom manifested out of fate or conditions, which is also fate. -
When u smell a scented flower u do not need to bow down to smell it. Fated means no choice, but u have a choice. And that choice is not fated by some kind of conditions. It is conditioned arising, but it is NOT fated by other conditions, which I have earlier mentioned. Karma presents a pleasant condition but one need not be concerned about it.Originally posted by Cenarious:neutral choices are also conditioned. why do you bow down to smell a flower? because you think it smells good. -
Just a reminder of certain things we discussed before:
http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/lectures_week/WEEK5.HTM
There is a widespread misunderstanding that kamma carries with it the idea of predestination or fatalism, that since everything is conditioned by kamma, there is nothing we can do to influence the course of our lives. This is not so. If everything down to the minutest details were preconditioned, either by kamma or by the physical laws of the universe, there would be no room for the functioning of freewill. It would be impossible for us to free ourselves from the mechanism of cause and effect and to attain Nibbana.
"If one says that in whatever way a person performs a kammic action, in that very same way he will experience the result - in that case there will be no (possibility for a) religious life and no opportunity would appear for the complete ending of suffering. But if one says that a person who performs a kammic action (with a result) that is variably experienceable, will reap its results accordingly - in that case there will be (a possibility for) a religious life and an opportunity for making a complete end of suffering." (A.3:110)
Kammic laws state tendencies, not inevitable consequences. It is true that once an act has been performed, we cannot altogether avoid its consequences, BUT it is how we react to what we experience that determines whether we shall create wholesome or unwholesome kammic results in the future. A man born in poverty, squalor, etc. may be in an environment conducive to crime, but he may not commit any. A man born into wealth, etc. may commit theft. It is how we act in the present which will determine what we shall experience afterwards; we make our own heavens and we make our own hells. This is the very opposite of predestination.