Tibet Buddhism (Vajrayana)
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What is the difference between Tibet Buddhism and Mahayana & Theravada?
I read that Tibet (Vajrayana) is a branch of Mahayana...
But I see that the Buddhas or Gods that they pray to is very much different.
May I know where can I know more about Tibet Buddhism and the Tibetan Gods & Buddhas? -
the link explained well:Originally posted by Arena:What is the difference between Tibet Buddhism and Mahayana & Theravada?
I read that Tibet (Vajrayana) is a branch of Mahayana...
But I see that the Buddhas or Gods that they pray to is very much different.
May I know where can I know more about Tibet Buddhism and the Tibetan Gods & Buddhas?
http://www.tibet.com/Buddhism/kala.html
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Tibetan Gods and BuddhasOriginally posted by Arena:What is the difference between Tibet Buddhism and Mahayana & Theravada?
I read that Tibet (Vajrayana) is a branch of Mahayana...
But I see that the Buddhas or Gods that they pray to is very much different.
May I know where can I know more about Tibet Buddhism and the Tibetan Gods & Buddhas?
there is no tibetan Buddhas. they are the same Buddha as mentioned in Mahayana sutra ,but undertake a different culture aspect
Tibetan God are not known as Gods ,they are protector Gods ,unique in the tibet culture which are manifestation of Great Bodhisattva like Guanyin and Manjusri(Wenshu)
As Tibetan Buddhist .do not worship tibetan gods. we are paying respect to them and seek their guidance in dharma knowledge -
bohiruci,
u a tibeatan buddhist?
which temple are u from?
may i know where got tibetan buddhist temple in singapore and where i can learn more abt it? -
One thing to add: the deities that are meditated upon in Tibetan Buddhism are not mundane deities or world deities. Any orthodox traditions of Buddhism strictly oppose worship in any form of mundane or worldly deities. Tibetan deities meditated upon least 8th Bhumi Bodhisattvas and above, and are often manifestation of great bodhisattvas like Guan Yin, etc etc. Although there are a few (and I literally mean, very few) worldly deities mentioned in Tibetan Buddhism, these are of low ranks and not so important, with minor roles such as helping to protect the dharma. In fact, in another topic, the Dalai Lama (world renowned leader of the Tibetan Buddhism) warned about the need of the right attitude towards worldly, samsaric deities and spirits.Originally posted by Arena:What is the difference between Tibet Buddhism and Mahayana & Theravada?
I read that Tibet (Vajrayana) is a branch of Mahayana...
But I see that the Buddhas or Gods that they pray to is very much different.
May I know where can I know more about Tibet Buddhism and the Tibetan Gods & Buddhas?
The difference between Tibetan Buddhism and Mahayana & Theravada is that Vajrayana Buddhism puts more emphasis on esoteric teachings and practises. Esoteric practises are sophisticated meditative teachings and practises that often require initiation and guidance of a qualified teacher. -
I think Bohiruci (if I recall) has received teachings from Vajrayana.
Also, perhaps you may consult _Wanderer_ as she is very knowledgeable about Vajrayana Buddhism, and is herself under guidance of her Vajrayana guru.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Esoteric practises are sophisticated meditative teachings and practises that MUST!!! require initiation and guidance of a qualified teacher.
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wat is the 'xiong tian' they worshipped?
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a controversial protector of the Gelupa tradition, because the New Kadampa Tradition stress that they are the pure Gelupas, they are FOR "xiong tian"
but because this purist movement undermines the authenticity of DL who is suppose to be the spiritual representation of Gelupa, there is a conflict, and thus DL is AGAINST "xiong tian"
it is a messy affair
so i say we just practise pureland at home, it is extremely simple, straightforward and undisputed (untainted) -
I do not agree that being a purist of Gelug means to support Dogyal. Because in the first place, Dogyal is NOT part of Buddhist teachings and is somewhere along history being promoted into higher status or have more role in the school.Originally posted by Xprobe:a controversial protector of the Gelupa tradition, because the New Kadampa Tradition stress that they are the pure Gelupas, they are FOR "xiong tian"
but because this purist movement undermines the authenticity of DL who is suppose to be the spiritual representation of Gelupa, there is a conflict, and thus DL is AGAINST "xiong tian"
it is a messy affair
so i say we just practise pureland at home, it is extremely simple, straightforward and undisputed (untainted)
And also you haven't mentioned the important reasons... it is the sectarian nature of this spirit that causes disunity among Tibetan Buddhism, an extremist that rejects and attacks other schools apart from Gelug.
Everyone especially Vajrayana Buddhist should read in depth and make a stance on this matter.
To have a clear understanding of the whole affair I suggest that we look into the various sites:
http://www.dalailama.com/page.132.htm
http://www.fpmt.org/organization/announcements/shugden/SpeechbyHisHolinessatGelugconferenceedohdl.pdf
http://www.fpmt.org/organization/announcements/shugden/HHDLZurich05.pdf
http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/
Lastly, I see no reason at all that one should avoid Vajrayana (I myself is not Vajrayana but this is my point of view) just because of this small matter, because it is only a very small minority of Vajrayana Buddhists who support Shugden, 99% of Vajrayana Buddhist actually support Dalai Lama's stance.
Whether one is to choose the path of Vajrayana is entirely up to his own decision and due to karmic affinity, I don't think it is appropriate for us to comment in this way. -
all i am saying is that i cannot tell at all
also, why must there be only two ways to look at this issue? -
Because true Buddhists should not create this affinity, or worship or take refuge in worldly spirits, this is against the principles of refuge in not taking refuge in other worldly beings/deities.Originally posted by Xprobe:all i am saying is that i cannot tell at all
also, why must there be only two ways to look at this issue?
Such behaviors are not Buddhist and should be avoided... -
how would you know, you are just taking DL's word for it
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Therefore I said, not only take DL's words, but look deeply into the matter. Then it will be clear that Dogyal practise is against Buddhist principles. There is a lot of information about it in those websites I provided.Originally posted by Xprobe:how would you know, you are just taking DL's word for it
Furthermore, there are many discussions on forums, including in E-Sangha, for example: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=34036&st=0 -
i am totally objective on this because it is none of my business
but,
1. the sources you gave are pro-DL
2. DL admitted that he took refuge in xiongtian and latter left it because of problems( see www.buddhanet.com.tw/dl/dl-14.htm) - hey cmon, the DL is suppose to be Guan Yin reincarnation, how can Guan Yin make this kind of mistake? or are we going to explain this away with another reference to skilful means?
not picking a fight, i will stop here -
the website have already said .It is a complicated issue to Dolgyal issue.
It is the part of Bon deities that refused to come under Buddhist teacher since Padmasambhava and presently HH Dalai Lama
the Dolgyal-shugden practice is not to be taken lightly.
I see no reason why Dolgyal Shugden should be practised
it will lead to destruction of one's Wisdom and Compassion and ones dharmmakaya
we should understand why we practise Buddhism in the first place,and this answer all doubts abt our practice
Homage to Guru Padmasambhava , may He gave us His splendid wisdom to overcome the Polluted Era
Om Ah Hung Benza Guru Pema Siddhi Hung
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1. There are more objective sources, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShugdenOriginally posted by Xprobe:i am totally objective on this because it is none of my business
but,
1. the sources you gave are pro-DL
2. DL admitted that he took refuge in xiongtian and latter left it because of problems( see www.buddhanet.com.tw/dl/dl-14.htm) - hey cmon, the DL is suppose to be Guan Yin reincarnation, how can Guan Yin make this kind of mistake? or are we going to explain this away with another reference to skilful means?
not picking a fight, i will stop here
2. It is complex and political, but it is not merely a political issue. As all the main teachers of the other three main schools (Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya) have made very firm stance about Shugden not being an enlightened being. Great scholars such as Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro (proponent of the Rimey/non-sectarian movement), HE Trulshik Rinpoche (Nyingmapa master), HH Sakya Trizin (Head of Sakya) have all openly warned disciples not to practice Shugden due to its harmful intent.
3. What you pointed out about HHDL being a Guan Yin emanation warrants another topic of discussion, as you will have to understand the meaning of "emanation" in Tibetan Buddhism. However, bearing in mind the importance of the "Guru" in Vajrayana practice, the fact that 14th HHDL's teacher Trijiang Rinpoche taught him the "Shugden" practice, puts him in a v difficult position. Yet, when he realized the sectarian nature of this being, HHDL had to make the decision to denounce the practice.
As early as 5th HHDL had already denounced the practice. 13th HHDL also denounced it, but after his death, his disciple Pabongkha spread it and also changed the status of Shugden from a worldly spirit to an enlightened being. Pabongkha also replaced the three protectors of Gelugpa tradition to other beings by himself, a move that is definitely not in accordance with the Vajrayana practice. Trijiang Rinpoche supported Pabongkha and eventually when 14th HHDL was found, Trijiang Rinpoche taught the practice to 14th HHDL, despite the 13th HHDL strongly advocating against the practice.
4. Some quotes from WIkipedia:
" Driving this dispute is the inherent nature of Dorje Shugden, which is to "protect" the Gelugpa lineage from adulteration by the traditions of other lineages, especially the Nyingmapa. His practice includes a promise not even to touch a Nyingma scripture, and several pro-Shugden lamas have said Shugden will kill those who violate this vow. "...
"Today none of the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism accept Shugden as a Dharmapala, citing his origin and activities against other schools. Many high masters from the other Tibetan Buddhist schools (Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya) agreed with the view of the 14th Dalai Lama that Shugden (Dhogyal) is a worldly spirit with demonic power. Shugden was not taught by Buddha, Atisha, or Tsongkhapa, or any Indian Tantric yogi or Indian Pandit who form the basis of Tibetan Buddhism. So Shugden was not accepted as an official part of the Gelug school by the Ganden Tripa, the Head of the Gelugpas. Because the worship of Shugden has created many conflicts within the Tibetan Buddhist community (for instance it is said that disciples of Lama Pabongkha destroyed Nyingma monasteries and statues of Padmasambhava and converted these monasteries into Gelug monasteries — and not only Nyingmapas had many difficulties with that spirit, also Kagyu practitioners made cleaning rituals after they visited Gelug monasteries), the 14th Dalai Lama used his status as the spiritual and political head of all the Tibetans to speak out about the sectarian harm of that practice. Then he asked Shugden followers not to come to his teachings, because there is no basis for a faithful teacher-disciple relationship if they don't believe his proofs. He also gave advice to all Gelug monasteries to stop the practice and to support harmony within the whole Tibetan Buddhist community. But of course in Tibetan Buddhism every one has the personal freedom not to follow his advice, and the Dalai Lama asked the Tibetan Buddhists to do the practice in private if they cannot give it up. Nowadays there are members of the Gelug school (for instance in Sera Monastery, India) who follow his advice, and there are some members who do not...
"One member of the Tibetan Government in Exile (Kashag) made the suggestion that practitioners of Dolgyal should not be allowed to hold public office within the Tibetan Government in Exile, but this personal suggestion was not accepted by the Tibetan Government in Exile...
5. Statement from Amnesty International:
The Shugden followers tried to receive a statement from Amnesty International (AI) that the Tibetan Goverment in Exile (specifically the 14th Dalai Lama) has violated human rights. However, AI replied in an official press release:
None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI's mandate for action — such as grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials.[53]
Worded as it is, Amnesty's statement clearly treads a fine line, neither asserting nor denying the validity of the allegations against the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration), nor finding either side culpable in the dispute. ... Amnesty International: Regarded “spiritual issues” and state affairs as separate, whilst seeing the command-based nation-state as the fundamental framework for understanding the category of ‘actionable human rights abuses’. Fundamental to this were linked criteria of state accountability and the exercise of state force, neither of which could clearly be identified within the CTA context. Whilst a prima facia case of infringement of religious freedoms within Tibetan refugee communities certainly existed, the absence of definable nation-state command structures precluded the formulation either of accountability or unavoidable jurisdiction essential to the formulation of a ‘human rights violation’.[54]
6. I agree with all that it's a highly complex issue. It is difficult to investigate, and not necessary some times. However, if one has the intent or wish to be associated with groups and events that are associated with Shugden, then for his/her own benefit, I would invite one to really explore and investigate deeply into the issue of the Shugden controversy.
Metta. -
cenarious, what you think about this xiong tian after reading this. -
AgreedOriginally posted by _wanderer_:1. There are more objective sources, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugden
2. It is complex and political, but it is not merely a political issue. As all the main teachers of the other three main schools (Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya) have made very firm stance about Shugden not being an enlightened being. Great scholars such as Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro (proponent of the Rimey/non-sectarian movement), HE Trulshik Rinpoche (Nyingmapa master), HH Sakya Trizin (Head of Sakya) have all openly warned disciples not to practice Shugden due to its harmful intent.
3. What you pointed out about HHDL being a Guan Yin emanation warrants another topic of discussion, as you will have to understand the meaning of "emanation" in Tibetan Buddhism. However, bearing in mind the importance of the "Guru" in Vajrayana practice, the fact that 14th HHDL's teacher Trijiang Rinpoche taught him the "Shugden" practice, puts him in a v difficult position. Yet, when he realized the sectarian nature of this being, HHDL had to make the decision to denounce the practice.
As early as 5th HHDL had already denounced the practice. 13th HHDL also denounced it, but after his death, his disciple Pabongkha spread it and also changed the status of Shugden from a worldly spirit to an enlightened being. Pabongkha also replaced the three protectors of Gelugpa tradition to other beings by himself, a move that is definitely not in accordance with the Vajrayana practice. Trijiang Rinpoche supported Pabongkha and eventually when 14th HHDL was found, Trijiang Rinpoche taught the practice to 14th HHDL, despite the 13th HHDL strongly advocating against the practice.
4. Some quotes from WIkipedia:
" Driving this dispute is the inherent nature of Dorje Shugden, which is to "protect" the Gelugpa lineage from adulteration by the traditions of other lineages, especially the Nyingmapa. His practice includes a promise not even to touch a Nyingma scripture, and several pro-Shugden lamas have said Shugden will kill those who violate this vow. "...
"Today none of the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism accept Shugden as a Dharmapala, citing his origin and activities against other schools. Many high masters from the other Tibetan Buddhist schools (Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya) agreed with the view of the 14th Dalai Lama that Shugden (Dhogyal) is a worldly spirit with demonic power. Shugden was not taught by Buddha, Atisha, or Tsongkhapa, or any Indian Tantric yogi or Indian Pandit who form the basis of Tibetan Buddhism. So Shugden was not accepted as an official part of the Gelug school by the Ganden Tripa, the Head of the Gelugpas. Because the worship of Shugden has created many conflicts within the Tibetan Buddhist community (for instance it is said that disciples of Lama Pabongkha destroyed Nyingma monasteries and statues of Padmasambhava and converted these monasteries into Gelug monasteries — and not only Nyingmapas had many difficulties with that spirit, also Kagyu practitioners made cleaning rituals after they visited Gelug monasteries), the 14th Dalai Lama used his status as the spiritual and political head of all the Tibetans to speak out about the sectarian harm of that practice. Then he asked Shugden followers not to come to his teachings, because there is no basis for a faithful teacher-disciple relationship if they don't believe his proofs. He also gave advice to all Gelug monasteries to stop the practice and to support harmony within the whole Tibetan Buddhist community. But of course in Tibetan Buddhism every one has the personal freedom not to follow his advice, and the Dalai Lama asked the Tibetan Buddhists to do the practice in private if they cannot give it up. Nowadays there are members of the Gelug school (for instance in Sera Monastery, India) who follow his advice, and there are some members who do not...
"One member of the Tibetan Government in Exile (Kashag) made the suggestion that practitioners of Dolgyal should not be allowed to hold public office within the Tibetan Government in Exile, but this personal suggestion was not accepted by the Tibetan Government in Exile...
5. Statement from Amnesty International:
The Shugden followers tried to receive a statement from Amnesty International (AI) that the Tibetan Goverment in Exile (specifically the 14th Dalai Lama) has violated human rights. However, AI replied in an official press release:
None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI's mandate for action — such as grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials.[53]
Worded as it is, Amnesty's statement clearly treads a fine line, neither asserting nor denying the validity of the allegations against the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration), nor finding either side culpable in the dispute. ... Amnesty International: Regarded “spiritual issues” and state affairs as separate, whilst seeing the command-based nation-state as the fundamental framework for understanding the category of ‘actionable human rights abuses’. Fundamental to this were linked criteria of state accountability and the exercise of state force, neither of which could clearly be identified within the CTA context. Whilst a prima facia case of infringement of religious freedoms within Tibetan refugee communities certainly existed, the absence of definable nation-state command structures precluded the formulation either of accountability or unavoidable jurisdiction essential to the formulation of a ‘human rights violation’.[54]
6. I agree with all that it's a highly complex issue. It is difficult to investigate, and not necessary some times. However, if one has the intent or wish to be associated with groups and events that are associated with Shugden, then for his/her own benefit, I would invite one to really explore and investigate deeply into the issue of the Shugden controversy.
Metta. -
Absolutely!Originally posted by bohiruci:the website have already said .It is a complicated issue to Dolgyal issue.
It is the part of Bon deities that refused to come under Buddhist teacher since Padmasambhava and presently HH Dalai Lama
the Dolgyal-shugden practice is not to be taken lightly.
I see no reason why Dolgyal Shugden should be practised
it will lead to destruction of one's Wisdom and Compassion and ones dharmmakaya
we should understand why we practise Buddhism in the first place,and this answer all doubts abt our practice
Homage to Guru Padmasambhava , may He gave us His splendid wisdom to overcome the Polluted Era
Om Ah Hung Benza Guru Pema Siddhi Hung -
exactly my pointOriginally posted by _wanderer_:However, bearing in mind the importance of the "Guru" in Vajrayana practice, the fact that 14th HHDL's teacher Trijiang Rinpoche taught him the "Shugden" practice, puts him in a v difficult position. Yet, when he realized the sectarian nature of this being, HHDL had to make the decision to denounce the practice.
Metta. -
eh, how come suddenly mentioned cenarious?Originally posted by justdoit77:cenarious, what you think about this xiong tian after reading this.
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wat does xiong tian look like and wats his background
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Images of ShugdenOriginally posted by NT2:wat does xiong tian look like and wats his background
As for his background.. other posts already provided some links you can look into. -
just curious, coz he said he want to become an evil god.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:eh, how come suddenly mentioned cenarious?