Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror (Part 2)
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This topic is in continuation of Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror
Just a recap on this topic,Originally posted by neutral_onliner:One day, the Fifth Patriarch, Hung Jen assembled all his disciples and said,"Go and seek for Prajna in your own mind and write me a stanza (gatha) about it. The one who understands the reality of Buddhist nature will be the Sixth Patriarch."
The head disciple, Shin Shau composed his stanza and wrote it on the wall of the corridor, so that the Patriarch might know what spiritual insight he had attained. The stanza read:
Our body is the Bodhi tree,
And our mind is like a bright mirror with stand,
Diligently we wipe them all the time,
And let no dust alight.
Shen shih p'u t 'i shu
Hsin ju ming ching t'ai.
Shih shih ch'in fu shih,
Mo shih jo ch 'en ai
Later, Hui Neng who worked in the kitchen heard a young man reciting the stanza. At once, he realized that the stanza did not reveal the reality of Buddhist nature.
As he was illiterate, he asked people to scribe his stanza, which reads:
There is no Bodhi Tree
Nor the stand of a bright mirror,
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?
P'u t 'i pen wu shu
Hsin ching i fei t'ai
Pen lai wu i wu,[s]
He ch 'u jo ch 'en ai
Eventually, Hui Neng received the robe and Dharma from Hung Jen, and became the Sixth Patriarch of Zen Sect in China -
just for the sake of academic argument, which do you think is relatively more relevant and useful given the state of our karma of today?
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*warning: if you find this topic a bit deep then please ignore it, it may be for more advanced readers*
I replied Neutral_Onliner,
But I haven't explained why. But I'm in a mood to share so today I'm going to explain.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Both of their poems are not yet there
Only after Hui Neng went into hiding did he further deepened his realisation. But certain topics have already elaborated on this one way or another...
Now firstly, while it is true that the 5th Zen Patriarch did eventually passed down the lineage of Zen to the 6th Partriarch Hui Neng, Hui Neng's 'Since all is void, where can dust alight?' poem is NOT accepted by the 5th Zen Patriarch. Some people overlooked this, and thought that Hui Neng's 'where can dust alight' poem is superb and 'ultimate' and is the 'winning poem' of Zen Patriarchy. It is not.
When Hui Neng submitted his poem to the 5th Patriarch, the 5th Patriarch rubbed off the stanza with his shoe, and proclaimed that the author of the poem hasn't realised the essence (xing4) of the Mind (xin1) either. Although this is partly because people are overly excited over the new poem and doesn't wish anyone to become jealous of him, the main reason is because truly, Hui Neng at that time hasn't truly attained the Great realisation/great enlightenment (da4 ce4 da4 wu4).
According to a talk by my Taiwanese teacher shown on VCD in my dharma center which I noted some of what he said a few days ago... he said that if Master Hui Neng were to be allowed to teach, he would lead all the zen practitioners into 'Pian1 Kong1' (leaning to voidness/formlessness). The whole poem is 'leaning to void/formlessness', every verse of it is talking about void, it is talking about the formless nature of consciousness. Therefore at that time, Hui Neng was not suitable to teach yet. This is also very similar to what Thusness told me over a year ago, which I will paste the conversation here later.
At the time when Hui Neng wrote his poem, he only attained the smaller realisation, he realised 'ti3', the Ground Base/Ground Luminosity of Buddha Nature. But that is not realising the non-dual nature of ground luminosity. Because it is non-dual, there is no separation and no leaning towards voidness/formlessness of luminosity.
So when did he truly awaken to the true nature of consciousness beyond 'formlessness'? I also did recall my teacher mentioning that Hui Neng only truly attained realisation after hearing the verse 'Wu shuo zhu er sheng qi xin'. I did a search, and found out that indeed, it is only after Hui Neng became truly enlightened (the "second time") after reading the verse in Diamond Sutra, that he was accepted by the Fifth Patriarch.The Sixth Patriarch's Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra
Note that this is after the 5th Patriarch rubbed off Hui Neng's poem on 'Pu Ti Ben Wu Shu'. After the first poem.
At the moment he heard those words. Hui Neng experienced the great enlightenment and he knew that all the ten thousand dharmas are not separate from the self-nature. He said to the Patriarch:
How unexpected! The self-nature is
originally pure in itself.
How unexpected! The self-nature is
originally neither produce nor destroyed.
How unexpected! The self-nature is
originally complete in itself.
How unexpected! The self-nature is
originally without movement.
How unexpected! The self-nature
can produce the ten thousand dharmas.
The Fifth Patriarch knew of Hui Neng's enlightenment to his original nature and said to him, "Studying the Dharma without recognizing the original mind is of no benefit. If one recognizes one's own original mind and sees one's original nature, then one is called a great hero, a teacher of gods and humans, a Buddha."
He received the Dharma in the third watch and no one knew about it. The Fifth Patriarch also transmitted the Sudden Teaching and the robe and bowl saying, "Your are the Sixth Patriarch. Protect yourself carefully. Take living beings across be every method and spread the teaching for the sake of those who will live in the future. Do not let it be cut off."
What is "dharma"? "Dharma" can mean many things, it means "Phenomena" but may also mean "Truth", "Teachings of the Buddha". When Hui Neng said "Dharma", it means "Phenomena". The other way of putting it is, Phenomena/Manifestation IS Source, that the "Self" is in fact not separate from the ten thousand things. (I will post on something from Ken Wilber later that elaborates this) And only after this second realisation can we say that Hui Neng has attained the Great Enlightenment (da ce da wu). And then, he received his robes.
I confirmed it with Thusness, who said, "he was given the robe because the master knows he is there not because his experience is already stabilized." He is there already, upon clarification with Thusness, he meant that Hui Neng has realised the Non-dual nature (i.e Thusness's 'stage 5' of 'Manifestation is Source') but his experience is not stabilised. So how? He was asked by the 5th Patriarch to keep silent, to go into hiding. (he went into hiding for 15 years)
To be continued.. -
My teacher also mentioned another verse by Hui Neng which showcased that all phenomena and even thoughts IS Reality (Shi2 Xiang4), and that if there is no 'doing' involved, no rejecting, nor attachment, meaning no "mi2", is already "wu4". The 'keyphrase' of 'Wu2 Wei2 Fa3' is 'Wu Si Wu Nian' and 'Dang Xia'. 'Wu Si Wu Nian' means no-thought, transcend thought. That means going beyond seeking, grasping. But the key is 'Dang1 Xia4' (the NOW, the Moment), not 'Wu2 Si1 Wu2 Nian4'. If one is not confused/ignorant/attached (mi2), then that is already 'awakened' (wu4). So, don't find another 'awakening' other than this, or else, that will be like riding on a bull finding the bull (you are riding on) elsewhere. So truly there is 'no attainment'.
Anyway here's the poem:Hui-neng has no special aptitude:
Last Wednesday I posted this in another forum, topic titled: Should thinking stop?
He does not cut off any thoughts.
His mind responds to all situations.
In what way can the Bodhi tree grow?
~ Hui-neng
I like Eckhart's take on that, when he said he didn't need to think anymore. The important word being "need".
I would like to add on to that, is that all the while all phenomena self-arises and self-liberated, the 'Self' plays no role in it because 'Self' is in the first place, an illusion. And the point is really when we recognise the self-arising nature, then immediately identification is cut off, because it is self-so, and there will be no seeking of continuity nor effort to stop it. There will be no action.
Thoughts can lose their obsessive, compulsive nature.
What a relief!
We do not need to think, and neither do we need to stop our thoughts, nor do we need to not-stop-our-thoughts... completely, utterly free. "I" walk, "I" breathe, but I do not will myself to walk, to breathe. I do not think "I want to walk" at every step. It just happens. Thoughts too, simply happen. Self-arise, self-liberated.
Just stop identifying with them... like we are usually not identified with walking, heart beat, or breathing. If we stop identifying with them... naturally there will be no striving to stop the thoughts nor will we seek their continuity. But if we caught ourselves day dreaming, then, it's best to put a stop to it at once.
juz my 2 cents.
What I learned from ET and some Buddhist teachings is the importance of being mindful of thoughts. Knowing when I'm thinking, when my mood is being affected by thoughts and realizing that I play a role in that experience, at times.
Yes.. mindfulness/awareness is extremely important. Either we are caught up with them... or we are aware.
However that is from the viewpoint of 'Wu2 Wei2 Fa3' (the dharma of non-action), because most of us are not able to reach that level due to our deep latent karmic tendencies, the Buddha taught countless expedient means and practises and 'You3 Wei2 Fa3' that we should practise, and can practise easier. Why? Karmic strength and tendencies are like the fuel of the car. My teacher mentioned that it is impossible to stop the car immediately, even if you stopped stepping the Gas the car has a certain momentum before it can stop. Therefore it is important to gain strength, and this is made possible by the expedient ways of the numerous dharmas that the Buddha taught. -
Thusness wrote:
Going beyond the subtle influences of thought
The wise rest neither in form nor formless
Not found in this or that
In the flow of perpetual becoming
Ever is and ever One
Completely free, utterly traceless.
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This IRC conversation took place in 4 November 2005
[00:53] btw 6th zen patriarch is enlightened isnt it
[00:54] anyway lineages are only passed down to enlightened ppl, so i presume all the zen lineage holders are enlightened?
[00:55] yes
[00:55] not the first time.
[00:55] the popular poem puti ben wu shu.
[00:56] [00:55] not the first time. --> huh?
[00:57] not the first time on what
[00:57] [00:55] the popular poem puti ben wu shu. --> so u mean the poem showcase hui neng's enlightenment?
[00:57] yes
[00:57] oic
[00:57] anyway u mean first time is what
[00:58] when he wrote the poem.
[00:58] u mean Shen-hsiu's poem?
[00:59] after he came out from hiding, he is entirely different.
[00:59] The body is the bodhi tree,
[00:59] The mind is like a clear mirror.
[00:59] At all times we must strive to polish it,
[00:59] And must not let the dust collect.
[00:59] (Yampolsky 130)
[00:59] yes.
[00:59] 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[00:59] Bodhi originally has no tree,
[00:59] The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[00:59] Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
[00:59] Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[00:59] (Yampolsky 132)
[00:59] [00:59] after he came out from hiding, he is entirely different. --> oic..
[01:00] anyway i m not in the position to comment on huineng.
[01:01] but zen books tend to overemphasize this aspect.
[01:01] actually i tink u got the timeline wrong
[01:01] it is only after hui neng wrote the poem, and the 5th patriarch was impressed
[01:01] then he told hui neng to go into hiding
[01:01] lol
[01:01] u will not find much diff between the 'atman'
[01:01] icic..
[01:01] yes he told hui neng to go into hiding coz he isn't ready.
[01:02] isn't ready for?
[01:02] preaching.
[01:02] icic
[01:02] but when he wrote this poem, he is already enlightened right?
[01:02] [00:59] 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[01:02] [00:59] Bodhi originally has no tree,
[01:02] [00:59] The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[01:02] [00:59] Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
[01:02] [00:59] Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[01:02] [00:59] (Yampolsky 132)
[01:02] i think i told utpala few yrs back that xing4 is not xin1
[01:03] xing = mind? xin = ? faith?
[01:03] xing4 as in nature, xin1 is mind
[01:03] nature, mind?
[01:03] u know ming xin jian xing
[01:03] yes
[01:04] know ur mind and see ur nature
[01:04] nature is emptiness
[01:04] i told utpala ming xin does not mean jian xing4
[01:04] then what is ming xin
[01:05] its intuitive perception of consciousness
[01:05] icic
[01:05] knowing what is consciousness.
[01:06] but not it's nature.
[01:07] realised its briliance, bright, lucidity, unborn aspect of consciousness
[01:07] icic..
[01:07] not th emptiness aspect
[01:07] hmm
[01:08] but when hui neng wrote this, is he already enlightened or not yet enlightened
[01:08] Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
[01:08] Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
[01:08] Since all is empty from the beginning,
[01:08] Where can the dust alight
[01:09] not completely enlightened from my perspective.
[01:09] huh how come? i tot he already understood emptiness?
[01:10] which line tell u the characteristic of emptiness?
[01:11] i dunnu, but using the analogy of mirror as mind, he said that the mirror is also empty.. so isnt it what u said 'jian xing'?
[01:12] i mean not just in words
[01:12] but which line tell us the meaning of emptiness
[01:13] i dunnu leh
[01:13] it just says empty lor
[01:13] lol
[01:13] lol
[01:14] more on the aspect that the pristine awareness does not lost its lucidity and brightness.
[01:14] no dust can alight.
[01:14] oic..
[01:14] even when we are in samsara, it still remain clearly bright.
[01:15] icic
[01:15] there is no wisdom needed because it is luminosity itself
[01:16] mirror bright does not require a stand
[01:16] oic..
[01:16] empty here is not the essence of the nature, but refers to the formless nature of consciousness
[01:17] essence of emptiness i mean
[01:17] oic..
[01:18] direct perception of consciousness is important but must go hand in hand with emptiness. -
The Nondual
Q: So this casual unmanifest – is that the absolute end point? Is this the end of time, the end of evolution, the end of history? The final Omega point?
KW: Well, many traditions take this state of cessation to be the ultimate state, the final end point of all development and evolution, yes. And this end state is equated with full Enlightenment, ultimate release, pure nirvana.
But this is not the “final story,” according to the Nondual traditions. Because at some point, as you inquire into the Witness, and rest in the Witness, the sense of being a Witness “in here” completely vanishes itself, and the Witness turns out to be everything that is witnessed. The causal gives way to the Nondual, and formless mysticism gives way to nondual mysticism. “Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form.”
Technically, you have dis-identified with even the Witness, and then integrated it with all manifestation – in other words, the second and third phases of fulcrum-9, which leads to fulcrum-10, which is not really a separate fulcrum or level, but the reality or Suchness of all levels, all states, all conditions.
And this is the second and most profound meaning of Emptiness - it is not a discrete state, but the reality of all states, the Suchness of all states. You have moved from the causal to the Nondual.
Q: Emptiness has two meanings?
KW: Yes, which can be very confusing. On one hand, as we just saw, it is a discrete, identifiable state of awareness – namely, unmanifest absorption or cessation (nirvikalpa Samadhi, ayn, jnana Samadhi, nirodh, classical nirvana). This is the causal state, a discrete state.
The second meaning is that Emptiness is not merely a particular state among other states, but rather the reality or suchness or condition of all states. Not a particular state apart from other states, but the reality or condition of all states, high or low, sacred or profane, ordinary or extraordinary. Recall that on figure 9-1 we had Spirit as both the highest level (“causal”) and the ever-present Ground of all levels (“nondual”).
Q: We already discussed the discrete state; now the Nondual.
KW: Yes, the “experience” of this nondual Suchness is similar to the nature unity experience we earlier discussed, except now this unity is experienced not just with gross Form out there, but also with all of the subtle Form in here. In Buddhist terms, this is not just the Nirmanakaya – gross or nature mysticism and not just the Sambhogakaya – subtle or deity mysticism; and not just the Dharmakaya – causal or formless mysticism. It is the Svabhavikakaya – the integration of all three of them. It is beyond nature mysticism, beyond deity mysticism, and beyond formless mysticism – it is the reality or the Suchness of each, and thus integrates each in its embrace. It embraces the entire spectrum of consciousness – transcends all, includes all.
Q: Again, rather technical. Perhaps thereÂ’s a more direct way to talk about Nondual mysticism?
Kw: Across the board, the sense of being any sort of Seer or Witness or Self vanishes altogether. You don’t look at the sky, you are the sky. You can taste the sky. It’s not out there. As Zen would say, you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, you can swallow the Kosmos whole – precisely because awareness is no longer split into a seeing subject in here and a seen object out there. There is just pure seeing. Consciousness and its display are not-two.
Everything continues to arise moment to moment – the entire Kosmos continues to arise moment to moment – but there is nobody watching the display, there is just the display, a spontaneous and luminous gesture of great perfection. The pure Emptiness of the Witness turns out to be one with every Form that is witnessed, and that is one of the basic meanings of “nonduality.”
Q: Again, could you be even more specific?
Kw: Well, you might begin by getting into the state of Witness – that is, you simply rest in pure observing awareness – you are not any object that can be seen – not nature, not body, not thoughts – just rest in that pure witnessing awareness. And you can get a certain “sensation” of that witnessing awareness – a sensation of freedom, of release, of great expanse.
While you are resting in that state, and “sensing” this Witness as a great expanse, if you then look at, say, a mountain, you might begin to notice that the sensation of the Witness and the sensation of the mountain are the same sensation. When you “feel” your pure Self and you “feel” the mountain, they are absolutely the same feeling.
In other words, the real world is not given to you twice – one out there, one in here. That “twiceness” is exactly the meaning of “duality”. Rather, the real world is given to you once, immediately – it is one feeling, it has one taste, it is utterly full in that one taste, it is not severed into seer and seen, subject and object, fragment and fragment. It is a singular, of which the plural is unknown. You can taste the mountain; it is the same taste as your Self; it is not out there being reflected in here – that duality is not present in the immediateness of real experience. Real experience, before you slice it up, does not contain that duality- real experience, reality itself, is “nondual.” You are still you, and the mountain is still the mountain, but you and the mountain are two sides of one and the same experience, which is the one and only reality at that moment.
If you relax into present experience in that fashion, the separate-self sense will uncoil; you will stop standing back from life; you will not have experience, you will suddenly become all experience; you will not be “in here” looking “out there” – in here and out there are one, so you are no longer trapped “in here.”
And so suddenly, you are not in the bodymind. Suddenly, the bodymind has dropped. Suddenly, the wind doesn’t blow on you, it blows through you, within you. You are not looking at the mountain, you are the mountain – the mountain is closer to you than your own skin. You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found.
The entire sensation of “weight” drops altogether, because you are not in the Kosmos, the Kosmos is in you, and you are purest Emptiness. The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else.
~ Ken Wilber -
When my teacher was asked in regards to the contradiction of form and emptiness, he replied that Dharma is completely 'rounded', it has no contradiction, it has no dualistic opposites. There is mutual integration. Empty is not just emptiness, In emptiness is form, in form is emptiness. I couldn't catch what he said exactly.. he explained quite indepth but is somewhere around there.
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"Finally, arahats understand that “emptiness is form.” Nirvana is found in samsara, in the midst of the phenomenal world, as well as in the attainment of Fruition beyond the phenomenal world. This is what is meant by removing the “last veil of unknowing.” They understand that it is form that is empty, that some illusory sense of a split off peacefulness or island of imperturbability was never true or realistic refuge. All of these phenomena are already empty and always have been. This is the great cosmic punch line: all of this transience turns out to have been it all along. Not only was form empty, but emptiness was actually form. The split is gone."
- Dharma Dan
(source: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version, see 'THE HEART SUTRA MODEL' chapter which speaks of the 4 stages towards Arhatship in terms of Heart Sutra)
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By the way just FYI, Dharma Dan is a highly enlightened teacher, he is an Arhat. I just started reading his book recently. I feel very sad that there are some people who are suspicious of him and even passed bad remarks on him because of his announcement of his attainments. Anyway he is endorsed to teach by his Buddhist teachers.
Here is what he said:While I call myself Dharma Dan on this page, I usually go by the name Daniel Ingram.
Thusness and I were discussing about his works and yes, he did confirm that Dharma Dan is writing from his true experiences and indeed has very deep insights.
I am an arahat with mastery of the formed jhanas, formless realms, Nirodha Samapatti, and a few other traditional attainments.
I am one of the few teachers I know of that will talk about high-level practice directly and unambiguously without relying on dogma, making things taboo or coating simple truths in mystery. I assume that most practitioners are mature enough to handle straight-forward and honest answers. My fundamental assumption is that many more people will be empowered to realize that they can master these things if they are out in the open. -
For me I think is not contradictory... i recall my dharma teacher used to say when answering someone's question I think of similar sort..Originally posted by Xprobe:just for the sake of academic argument, which do you think is relatively more relevant and useful given the state of our karma of today?
The first poem of wiping mirror clean is meant for the Practitioner, while the mirror has no stand poem is a poem of realisation.. meaning he has realised certain aspect of his true nature.
For most of us we have to diligently 'wipe the mirror clean' -
Hi all,
Just some clarifications about Dharma Dan...
I came to know about Dharma Dan only few days from AEN. I do not know much about him. I have no comments about him declaring himself as an arahat. I read a little about the exchanges between him and other forumers in E-Sanga, pretty sad as what AEN mentioned but what I want to remark is his deep intuitive insight. Like what he said, there are just too many myths surrounding what an Arahat should and shouldn't be like. As to whether has he attained arahatship, what i think is, unless we already have achieved certain level of insight into our true nature, lets not create unnecessary karma by discrediting his achievement. I believe he clearly knows where is he heading.
I truly appreciate his effort on the e-book he wrote. It is free and is a valuable asset to insight meditators about the nature of reality and non-duality. He wrote it out of his own authentic experience. I just printed out the entire e-book, it is of a great help to me but read with ur own discernment. -
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Wow you printed it outOriginally posted by Thusness:I truly appreciate his effort on the e-book he wrote. It is free and is a valuable asset to insight meditators about the nature of reality and non-duality. He wrote it out of his own authentic experience. I just printed out the entire e-book, it is of a great help to me but read with ur own discernment.
You went to some printing shops? By the way how much did you pay for the whole printing? -
Nope...Print it out using company resources.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Wow you printed it out
You went to some printing shops? By the way how much did you pay for the whole printing?
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oh.Originally posted by Thusness:Nope...Print it out using company resources. 