Thusness wrote:
Going beyond the subtle influences of thought
The wise rest neither in form nor formless
Not found in this or that
In the flow of perpetual becoming
Ever is and ever One
Completely free, utterly traceless.----
This IRC conversation took place in 4 November 2005
[00:53] btw 6th zen patriarch is enlightened isnt it
[00:54] anyway lineages are only passed down to enlightened ppl, so i presume all the zen lineage holders are enlightened?
[00:55] yes
[00:55] not the first time.
[00:55] the popular poem puti ben wu shu.

[00:56] [00:55] not the first time. --> huh?
[00:57] not the first time on what
[00:57] [00:55] the popular poem puti ben wu shu.

--> so u mean the poem showcase hui neng's enlightenment?
[00:57] yes
[00:57] oic
[00:57] anyway u mean first time is what
[00:58] when he wrote the poem.
[00:58] u mean Shen-hsiu's poem?
[00:59] after he came out from hiding, he is entirely different.
[00:59] The body is the bodhi tree,
[00:59] The mind is like a clear mirror.
[00:59] At all times we must strive to polish it,
[00:59] And must not let the dust collect.
[00:59] (Yampolsky 130)
[00:59] yes.
[00:59] 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[00:59] Bodhi originally has no tree,
[00:59] The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[00:59] Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
[00:59] Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[00:59] (Yampolsky 132)
[00:59] [00:59] after he came out from hiding, he is entirely different. --> oic..
[01:00] anyway i m not in the position to comment on huineng.

[01:01] but zen books tend to overemphasize this aspect.
[01:01] actually i tink u got the timeline wrong
[01:01] it is only after hui neng wrote the poem, and the 5th patriarch was impressed
[01:01] then he told hui neng to go into hiding
[01:01] lol
[01:01] u will not find much diff between the 'atman'
[01:01] icic..
[01:01] yes he told hui neng to go into hiding coz he isn't ready.

[01:02] isn't ready for?
[01:02] preaching.

[01:02] icic
[01:02] but when he wrote this poem, he is already enlightened right?
[01:02] [00:59] 2) Hui-neng offers the following alternative verse:
[01:02] [00:59] Bodhi originally has no tree,
[01:02] [00:59] The mirror(-like mind) has no stand.
[01:02] [00:59] Buddha-nature (emptiness/oneness) is always clean and pure;
[01:02] [00:59] Where is there room for dust (to alight)?
[01:02] [00:59] (Yampolsky 132)
[01:02] i think i told utpala few yrs back that xing4 is not xin1
[01:03] xing = mind? xin = ? faith?
[01:03] xing4 as in nature, xin1 is mind
[01:03] nature, mind?
[01:03] u know ming xin jian xing
[01:03] yes
[01:04] know ur mind and see ur nature
[01:04] nature is emptiness
[01:04] i told utpala ming xin does not mean jian xing4
[01:04] then what is ming xin
[01:05] its intuitive perception of consciousness
[01:05] icic
[01:05] knowing what is consciousness.
[01:06] but not it's nature.
[01:07] realised its briliance, bright, lucidity, unborn aspect of consciousness
[01:07] icic..
[01:07] not th emptiness aspect
[01:07] hmm
[01:08] but when hui neng wrote this, is he already enlightened or not yet enlightened
[01:08] Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists,
[01:08] Nor the stand of a mirror bright.
[01:08] Since all is empty from the beginning,
[01:08] Where can the dust alight
[01:09] not completely enlightened from my perspective.

[01:09] huh how come? i tot he already understood emptiness?

[01:10] which line tell u the characteristic of emptiness?
[01:11] i dunnu, but using the analogy of mirror as mind, he said that the mirror is also empty.. so isnt it what u said 'jian xing'?
[01:12] i mean not just in words
[01:12] but which line tell us the meaning of emptiness
[01:13] i dunnu leh
[01:13] it just says empty lor
[01:13] lol
[01:13] lol
[01:14] more on the aspect that the pristine awareness does not lost its lucidity and brightness.
[01:14] no dust can alight.
[01:14] oic..
[01:14] even when we are in samsara, it still remain clearly bright.
[01:15] icic
[01:15] there is no wisdom needed because it is luminosity itself
[01:16] mirror bright does not require a stand
[01:16] oic..
[01:16] empty here is not the essence of the nature, but refers to the formless nature of consciousness
[01:17] essence of emptiness i mean
[01:17] oic..
[01:18] direct perception of consciousness is important but must go hand in hand with emptiness.