Non-dual and karmic patterns
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Dear friends,
I will like to share my current experience... and hopefully the more experienced forumers (like Thusness and others) can comment.
I have more time in non-dual state now. That is, there is no-self in the experiencing of things aka no subject-object split. What i have noticed is that much of the karmic patterns and habits still arises...but this time they arises without the agent of a self.
The karmic patterns that were diminished are mainly those pertaining to the 'sense of a self'. Apart from these, many habits are still largely intact. However, the awareness of this habits is clearer... but without the 'willing/forceful intention' of the false sense of self.
There is an apparent paradox here. Most of us uses the 'false sense of self' to will ourselve from doing certain things. Without the sense of self, the habits are still there and experienced. I think absolute trust must be given that the habits dissolves away in due time through non-willing.
So my conclusion is that non-duality alone does not equal no karmic patterns. There must be successive stages forward that handles the remaining karmic patterns.
This is my understanding only. Please read with discernment. Thanks and regards. -
Also, i have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and they give different degrees of vividness and sense of oneness. At times, sense of being at a location is greatly diminished... what is being felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth, 'here-ness' is made up of perceptions and sensation... Like the sensations of pressure of the feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and hearing and so on so forth are just that. -
Interesting.. Thusness will be back in two days, he went to Goldcoast in Australia with his family
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I think so. This has to do with clearing fetters and as you might know there are 10 fetters to clear before Arhat. Each of the 4 stages towards sainthood (stream enterer, once returner, non returner, arhat) is related to clearing certain fetters. It has been elaborated in Dharma Dan's book as well, and more info can be found in the netOriginally posted by longchen:So my conclusion is that non-duality alone does not equal no karmic patterns. There must be successive stages forward that handles the remaining karmic patterns. -
I see...
Thanks
I have read Dharma Dan's book... it is good and helpful. He really knows the stuff well... including those normally not stated (literally) within Buddhism eg the Dark nights. -
Originally posted by longchen:
Yes LongChen, very very well said. What you described is very true about the experience of non-duality and no-self is really referring to the illusionary view of a subject-object split. In actual case, there is no such split and like what you said, there are varying depths and degrees to this experience of non-duality. It will be good to find out more about the 7 factors of enlightenments and five wisdoms in Buddhism.
[[quote]
I will like to share my current experience... I have more time in non-dual state now.
That is, there is no-self in the experiencing of things aka no subject-object split.
Â… Also, i have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and they give different degrees of vividness and sense of oneness. At times, sense of being at a location is greatly diminished... what is being felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth, 'here-ness' is made up of perceptions and sensation... Like the sensations of pressure of the feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and hearing and so on so forth are just thatÂ….
Sensation is just a word. However when we named it as ‘sensation’, there are whole lots of imprints and definitions that come along with it and that makes seeing it in ‘raw’ difficult. So what is ‘sensation’ in its raw state? It is what we called Presence, our Pristine Awareness. And yes they are all just THAT, that ‘sensation in raw’ and the purpose of why Buddha taught mindfulness will become clear; it is to experience “all is just that”, the One Reality. This has to be experienced intuitively and directly. There is no other way.
Next, we must experience more clearly about its emptiness nature. Awareness is a luminous presence with emptiness as its nature. Its nature is empty in the sense that there is no way you can point to a who, or a place or a moment in time and say “here it is”. It subsides as it arises and never remains. It is symbol-less and therefore we should not rest ourselves in either form or formless. It is neither this nor that and not even an ‘IT’. Simply empty of a ‘self’! A Source that cannot be pinned down is purely an ever manifestation of phenomena that rolls on. Its arising and ceasing is best described in the following:
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
(Dependent Origination – DO)
Do not even ask where it comes from and where it goes. To ask is to satisfy our cognitive thirst. In actual case it is no where to be found, only mere arising and ceasing in raw. The profundity of DO has no depth, zoom deeply into it. Sense the entirety of the moment, the manifolds of Presence, the vividness, texture and fabric of the raw, experience earnestly the luminous and emptiness truth of our nature.
The experience of this is the awakening of the mirror-like wisdom. This is important because it is the base that prevents us from falling into lower realm. But contrary to what that is being commonly explained as a clear mirror reflecting the phenomenon which is again dualistic (by now u will not be able to accept such view
), it is a wisdom that transformed totally the wrong view of phenomena as “out there or in here” to all as the manifestation of our pristine awareness due its emptiness nature. It is the experience of Dharmakaya.
It is a matter of how deep the experience of non-dual has penetrated into our consciousness. At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the ‘Self’ consciousness does not surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions are still there. The afflicted consciousness is the habitual propensities of ‘self’ that is deeply rooted and works at the pre-conscious level. The experience of non-duality will not be able to overcome and eliminate these stronger afflictions until we have habituated ourselves to this understanding at the deeper level of our consciousness.
What i have noticed is that much of the karmic patterns and habits still arises...but this time they arises without the agent of a selfÂ…The karmic patterns that were diminished are mainly those pertaining to the 'sense of a self'. Apart from these, many habits are still largely intact. However, the awareness of this habits is clearer... but without the 'willing/forceful intention' of the false sense of self...
There is an apparent paradox here. Most of us uses the 'false sense of self' to will ourselve from doing certain things. Without the sense of self, the habits are still there and experienced. I think absolute trust must be given that the habits dissolves away in due time through non-willing.
At this juncture, a practitioner will experience the first 4 factors of enlightenment quite clearly, that is, there will be mindfulness, investigative, joy and rapture but tranquility, concentration and equanimity isnÂ’t strong yet. The first 4 factors will result a sense of radiance bright, lightness, free, clear, vivid and energetic feeling but the settledness, sereneness and calmness will not be that obviously felt. It is here where one will experience the dark night of what Dharma Dan described. Contrary to what that is being thought, one may even feel more lustful due to the new found energy. But somehow the non-dual experience also has the strength to pull us back from falling further (you may experienced it in some synchronic events that serve as reminders) and eventually lead us to the experience of equanimity. You may want to find out whyÂ…?
Lastly hee…Having said that much, it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. -
Hi Thusness,
Thanks so much for the detailed explanations. I am getting a better understanding after read them.
Really appreciate it.
regards -
Wow v detailed postOriginally posted by Thusness:
BTW you're back? -
Marcteng passed me a book by Zen Master Seung Sahn just now, it is quite interesting, the title of the book is 'Only Don't Know' and it contains the teaching letters of Zen Master Seung Sahn.Originally posted by Thusness:The experience of this is the awakening of the mirror-like wisdom.
Here is something interesting and I scanned it in (Right click, click View Image/Show Picture to view it in full):
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I just found this appendixes are related:
Appendix II. Temple Rules
1. On Keeping the Bodhi Mind
You must first make a firm decision to attain Enlightenment and help others. You already have the five or the ten precepts. Know when to keep them and when to break them, when they are open and when they are closed. Let go of your small self and become your true self.In original nature
There is no this and that
The Great Round Mirror
Has no likes or dislikes
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hahaha....U stayed till 4.30am to post this...great effort!
Interesting way of communication and at times it is good to communicate non verbally....By the way how do u upload images into the forum and can it be uploaded in PM? -
No... where got so long oneOriginally posted by Thusness:hahaha....U stayed till 4.30am to post this...great effort!
Interesting way of communication and at times it is good to communicate non verbally....By the way how do u upload images into the forum and can it be uploaded in PM?
scanning and uploading takes a minute. I posted at 12 a.m, but at 4.16a.m I realised I missed 2 images. So I uploaded again.
I got a scanner.. so I scanned it in.. then I uploaded it in http://xs.to - its a free image storage website.
And yes it can be sent in PM. -
[double post]
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After some discussions.. there are more stages to it but for the purpose of this thread, there are 3 more pictures that are of relevance --
1)
Commentary::
That mirror is the initial assumption that is still dualistic... that is there is a witness/observer looking at the mirror. This was my initial understanding as well.
At that stage, the understanding of no-self is not there yet. The next stage is that of the understanding that 'sense of self is not the doer of action.' This 'sense of self is not the doer of action' will result in a internal re-structuring of the way of handling stuffs... which will lead into progressive non-duality.
~ longchen
http://www.dreamdatum.com/no-eternalwitness.html
Is there an Eternal Witness?
During deep meditative states, an all-pervading Presence is detectable. This Presence, is most often experienced when thoughts are momentarily suspended. In this state, we sense the Eternal Witness.
But does the Eternal Witness truly exist? No.
In the past, I would have thought that it existed... as our true self. Not anymore.
So what causes the impression of the Witness?
From deep meditative observation, the witness is realised to be just an impression that is caused by subtle knowingness and sequential observation. Moment to moment arises in lightning fast speed. The second moment got a subtle imprint of the recently preceded one. This sequential change causes the sense of Subtle Witnessing known as the Eternal Witness.
There is no permanent unchanging Witness, but ever changing moment to moment witnessing. In another word, no permanent 'Eternal Witness' exist.
For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
http://www.dreamdatum.com/universal-mind.html
All is the Universal Mind
All is the Universal Mind.
In the ultimate sense, there are no things or individuals in the world. All things are cognated by the universal mind. It is gripping and cognition that illusionate and form concepts about things, phenomena and persons in the world. All living beings are likes streams and ripples on the surface of Universal Mind.
It seems that these streams are created by cause and effects. The complexity of life is the quagmire that we have got ourself into. Our bodies, interactions and relationships are due to the very long series of cause and effects that were propelled along by unconsciousness and sometimes experimental desires.
Our individual selves and Universal Mind are never separated at all. More accurately, the 'individual self' never truly existed at all. Right in the very beginning, there was no self. Sensory data that are being perceived are being organised by the amazing cogniting ability of 'individual conventional mind' into meanings and interpretations. In another word, the conventional individual mind differentiates and discriminates the sensory datas and starts to percieve environments, peoples and things. BUT, all these interpretations are just that! There are just interpretations of Reality. For Reality is truly without location and does not exist at any particular place. The sense of being here at this particular spot is just an interpretation. Likewise, the discrimination of conventional mind sees the differences in colour images and categorises the mental sight into people, things and environment.
This state/realisation has a freeing joy as conventional mind get to have a deep rest from its usual actvities. Please understand that there is a difference between a conceptual understanding and an experiential realisation
For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.
2)
Commentary:Originally posted by longchen:Dear friends,
I will like to share my current experience... and hopefully the more experienced forumers (like Thusness and others) can comment.
I have more time in non-dual state now. That is, there is no-self in the experiencing of things aka no subject-object split. What i have noticed is that much of the karmic patterns and habits still arises...but this time they arises without the agent of a self.
The karmic patterns that were diminished are mainly those pertaining to the 'sense of a self'. Apart from these, many habits are still largely intact. However, the awareness of this habits is clearer... but without the 'willing/forceful intention' of the false sense of self.
There is an apparent paradox here. Most of us uses the 'false sense of self' to will ourselve from doing certain things. Without the sense of self, the habits are still there and experienced. I think absolute trust must be given that the habits dissolves away in due time through non-willing.
So my conclusion is that non-duality alone does not equal no karmic patterns. There must be successive stages forward that handles the remaining karmic patterns.
This is my understanding only. Please read with discernment. Thanks and regards.
3)Originally posted by longchen:Also, i have noticed that non-duality has various depths and degrees.
Certain times there are more mental thoughts, certain times less and they give different degrees of vividness and sense of oneness. At times, sense of being at a location is greatly diminished... what is being felt are all the sensations that made up 'here-ness'... For in truth, 'here-ness' is made up of perceptions and sensation... Like the sensations of pressure of the feet against the floor... they are just that..sensations. Likewise, the visual perceptions and hearing and so on so forth are just that.
Commentary:
That alone is sufficient.