buddhism is alright but still faulty.....
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Oh yes, when 'we' died, 'we' no longer exist.Originally posted by january:my belief in death is that one no longer exist forever.
from buddhism belief, their belief is that there is still continuation of life after death for the person which is not true.....
Infact, we do experience death in a form of transformation in our daily day life. So there isnt really a fixed me or we.
As i have just said. Moral values are not only influenced by religion. You can't justified that buddhism is faulty because of ur concept on moral values.Originally posted by january:what is being moral? the is a very subjective question...
when you see a person in trouble and you can easily help him, you will usually do it because it is easy for you. like giving up seats and helping people to pick up things...
but when the help involves is bigger and if it may involve the safety of your own self, then you are more unlikely to help.
Selfish theory focuses on self, and this is important because it ensures safety to the self. if you think about it, we are usually thinking about ourselves our beliefs and what we are going to do. self centredness is an essential character of self.
sometimes,people need to cooperate also because of selfish theories... you cooperate and help others because in the end, it will lead to an effect of helping yourself because teamwork create a bigger power than individual...
i therefore dun see how one should be moral..... most people dun do immoral act because there are laws, punishments and social scolding that will occur along with it.....
if nobody is going to scold you and hate, and if all the punishment are removed, then people will do things that were labeled immoral in the past....
Mm by the way ur "self" theory is arrowing emptiness?
From my understanding on buddhism, it is rather different.
However, i disagreed with 'self-centredness' is essential character of self.
The statement sound simple and narrow in context.
Some people tends to think for themselves; to get what they want and inconsiderate to others; to protect ourselves from necessary harm from others . You do agreed that we all need one another to get a task done right? You also mention that you help others because it benefits you.
There are different level of self-fishness.
One can be self-serving in certain matters and yet not excessively self-centred at other times.
Do you think without the help of others, you can actually succeed in the first place? The fact is there is no seperate entity. We are all inter-related and we need and depend on one another.
So my question is if everyone is ( Let say extremely self-centred ), will there be a team in a first place? There are people who are tremendously egotistic. Trust me, some of them are just not likeable. Most of the successful person whom are capable leader, have a likeable personality.
What if everyone wants to satisfy different selfish needs and only looking for themselves, will there be synergy in the team to perform task effectively? Do u look forward to work in a back-stabbing environment and co-workers who do not care how you feel ?
I don't deny there are people who back-stab. No one is perfect or is behaving perfectly morally but who are we to judge them? In buddhism, we don't just see the goody-side of everyone. We see things as they are.
Lastly, may i ask when ur selfish needs aren't satisfied, will u feel very unhappy? A person who is excessively self-serving tend to think for only themselves > of only their only happiness and problems. It is harder for them to step out of their small little self to view the bigger picture. They might become more dogma.
There are also other people who are worse off than you but fail to "see" it cos ur mind is so much focus on nothing but a self.
Many times, we also tend to think that we are all TOO important, that we lack humilty to see our mistakes.
mm so imagine, without moral values, what our society will be like? You couldn't feel safe even stepping out of your house; where will u keep your money? Do u think that will be a proper working legal system for business to work out for? You can't trust others. If you can't trust others, can u truly know how to love? -
Do u believe in retribution?
If someone did really hurtful thing to you for their selfish needs, will u avenge?
Vice versa. -
What if the person being hurt is an arahat? arahats won't want revenge, but killing an arahat means hell next life.Originally posted by Isis:Do u believe in retribution?
If someone did really hurtful thing to you for their selfish needs, will u avenge?
Vice versa. -
Good question there.Originally posted by Cenarious:What if the person being hurt is an arahat? arahats won't want revenge, but killing an arahat means hell next life.
I will leave that to a venerable nor do i read much like AEN. -
I do agree with you that selfishness does exists, and at the same time, we do not wish others to be selfish towards ourselves. We always like to think of ourselves as THE ICON infront of others. Buddhism teaches us to forgo that thought. Reason being simple, your desire is endless, you may not get the kind of attention you wanted, and if you don't get what you want, you'll feel dejected, betrayed and it's painful.Originally posted by january:i do learn from budhhism ..some of his concepts like controlling desire is very good source of learning materials...
but seriously many of its other theories are plain crap...
1) morality is quite wrong
human is selfish and it is the actually right to be selfish...
however to be selfish in a right way is a knowledge....
You may choose to complain "why that so and so is so selfish?", or you may think it the other way that "maybe I was selfish to him first, then he reciprocate the same behaviour towards me". If your choice is not later, then you jolly well keep your mouth shut when something bad happens to you because you have acknwledge that selfishness is the right way to live.
Buddhist don't lack reasoning in karma. One simple aspect, if you eat too much unhealthy food and don't take care of your body, you'll suffer from Heart Disease, Diabetes or cancer later when you get older. That's Karma.Originally posted by january:2) karma is another crap
the problem with buddhism is that it fails to learn from the basis of science.
theories have to be verifable...... if it cannot be experimentally carried out...
we do not make another hypothesis and conclusions
but i am amazed that buddhist believe in recarniations.....
therefore.. buddhist lack reasoning skills seriously in these areas...
If you knock someone down, you get caught and jailed, that's karma.
Whether you accept it or not, it's happening to you every single moment. -
If you kill a tyrant to protect others, it's bad karma?Originally posted by path_seeker:Buddhist don't lack reasoning in karma. One simple aspect, if you eat too much unhealthy food and don't take care of your body, you'll suffer from Heart Disease, Diabetes or cancer later when you get older. That's Karma.
If you knock someone down, you get caught and jailed, that's karma.
Whether you accept it or not, it's happening to you every single moment. -
Then there is karma for both freeing people and killing a man.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If you kill a tyrant to protect others, it's bad karma?
But certain things may be necessary. -
Practice of mahayana at its best!Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If you kill a tyrant to protect others, it's bad karma? -
Catch no ball...Originally posted by Xprobe:Practice of mahayana at its best! -
if you compared to any of the god religion, its even more absurd and dogmatic.Originally posted by january:i do learn from budhhism ..some of his concepts like controlling desire is very good source of learning materials...
but seriously many of its other theories are plain crap...
1) morality is quite wrong
human is selfish and it is the actually right to be selfish...
however to be selfish in a right way is a knowledge....
2) karma is another crap
the problem with buddhism is that it fails to learn from the basis of science.
theories have to be verifable...... if it cannot be experimentally carried out...
we do not make another hypothesis and conclusions
but i am amazed that buddhist believe in recarniations.....
therefore.. buddhist lack reasoning skills seriously in these areas...
i dun wan to name any names of the religion in view of practising tolerance.
first one, if u dun believe in that god, u will go to hell and be judged by god. if this is not absurd, i really dunno what is.
if you accept that god, u will be born into heaven forever after you die?
if this has no rebirth concept, i dunno what is.
for non believers, they will be spending their whole eternity in hell, if this is not dogmatic, i also dunno what is.
I rest my case. -
i think he has no idea what kamma is and its concept.
pardon his ignorance -
When he attained Buddhahood, he will surely teach for the benefit of mankind and also to devas.Originally posted by longchen:Here is a good read about why Buddha himself was very reluctant to spread the Dharma.
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/eleventharmy.html
if he did not teach after attaining Buddhahood, that will defeat his purpose in being a Sammasam Buddha, as apposed to being a Pacceka Buddha, who do not teach.
Not to forget his vows to save all sentient beings by becoming a Buddha.
All sammasam Buddha's will propagate their teachings, in the past, present and future . -
You are ignored.Originally posted by marcteng:i think he has no idea what kamma is and its concept.
pardon his ignorance
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Otherwise, it means you are just as screwed...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Then there is karma for both freeing people and killing a man.
But certain things may be necessary.
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I believe that religions are absurd and I rest my case as the arguments from the above are proven so.Originally posted by marcteng:if you compared to any of the god religion, its even more absurd and dogmatic.
i dun wan to name any names of the religion in view of practising tolerance.
first one, if u dun believe in that god, u will go to hell and be judged by god. if this is not absurd, i really dunno what is.
if you accept that god, u will be born into heaven forever after you die?
if this has no rebirth concept, i dunno what is.
for non believers, they will be spending their whole eternity in hell, if this is not dogmatic, i also dunno what is.
I rest my case. -
Originally posted by january:
Based on the reasoning and analytical skills you have displayed in your posts, I believe you have the capacity to conduct proper research, based on valid and credible sources, on what is true concept of "Karma" in Buddhism, and what is the difference between "rebirth " , "reincarnation " and "trans-migration " . Which of the 3 do Buddhists subscribe to?
2) karma is another crap
the problem with buddhism is that it fails to learn from the basis of science.
theories have to be verifable...... if it cannot be experimentally carried out...
we do not make another hypothesis and conclusions
but i am amazed that buddhist believe in recarniations.....
therefore.. buddhist lack reasoning skills seriously in these areas...
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Because what you have written so far really does not indicate that you even have the proper basic understanding, therefore there is no basis for useful or constructive exchange of opinions. It's almost like.. you're scolding us for rearing cows...when we're rearing sheep here.
If you are sincere and passionate about awakening Buddhists to abandon the erroneous concepts of Karma and Rebirth, then I would first urge you to do a proper research on the topic. When you are able to present a proper description of the Buddhist concepts of Karma and Rebirth, then that would be a good point for us to discuss whether these concepts are sound and valid. -
Based on this theory of selfishness, morality is wrong. Thus Buddhism teaches selflessness, thereby proving morality is right.Originally posted by january:selfish theory focuses on self, and this is important because it ensures safety to the self. if you think about it, we are usually thinking about ourselves our beliefs and what we are going to do. self centredness is an essential character of self.
sometimes , people need to cooperate also because of selfish theories... you cooperate and help others because in the end, it will lead to an effect of helping yourself because teamwork create a bigger power than individual...
The concept of selfishness begins from the concept of grasping. Understanding impermanence will free one from the grasping.
Let go. -
If you don't grasp logic, then are you sane?Originally posted by Origami:Based on this theory of selfishness, morality is wrong. Thus Buddhism teaches selflessness, thereby proving morality is right.
The concept of selfishness begins from the concept of grasping. Understanding impermanence will free one from the grasping.
Let go. -
Sane of course.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If you don't grasp logic, then are you sane?
At the same time, words are used for various meanings, like the word "hit".
It's a hit can mean someone or something was physically struck and it can also mean someone or something is a big success. -
Because your reply nearly gave me a heart attack. It is coming close to out of topic.Originally posted by Origami:Sane of course.
At the same time, words are used for various meanings, like the word "hit".
It's a hit can mean someone or something was physically struck and it can also mean someone or something is a big success. -
Hehe, you think too much.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Because your reply nearly gave me a heart attack. It is coming close to out of topic.
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Oh hi old friend... long time never seeOriginally posted by Origami:Hehe, you think too much. 
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If I don't think, then I don't analyse.Originally posted by Origami:Hehe, you think too much.
Hit can be a verb or a noun.
Depending on your usage, it will have different meaning, hence it is your choice of words.
If you don't grasp any logic at all, then you have to be insane. -
therefore.. buddhist lack reasoning skills seriously in these areas...
which religion have reasoning skills? -
'The Elucidation of Consciousness' provides very good answer to the subject of karma & consciousness.
QUOTE
"As an illustration when the wind passes over exquisite flowers, the flower remain where they are, while their fragrance spreads far and wide. The substance of the wind does not take in a fragrance of the exquisite flowers. The substances of the fragrance, the wind, and the organ of touch' have neither shape nor color, but the fragrance cannot spread far away without the power of the wind. Wise Protector, in the same way, after a sentient being dies, his consciousness will take birth again together with the elements of feeling, awareness, and dharmas. Accompanied by the elements of feeling, awareness, and dharmas, the consciousness is reincarnated through [the union of] its parents, who are the conditions of its rebirth."
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