why do people believe in past lives?
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As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not lead to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent. -
You don't NEED to believe in it until you see it for yourself. I neither believe it nor disbelieve it.
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Ever have feelings of deja vu?Originally posted by january:As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not need to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent. -
That is because you know that there is this Holy spirit, and we all carried spirits or fragments of our spirits from it.
In Christianity , you must have believed in the Holy Trinity. -
Although I want to add one thing: confidence in the Three Treasures is still very helpful and necessary.Originally posted by Cenarious:You don't NEED to believe in it until you see it for yourself. I neither believe it nor disbelieve it.
Why? Because unless we are confident in a particular scientific method - though it is already a tried and tested method by countless others - we would not do the experiment ourselves.
So faith - in the sense confidence in the 'scientific methods' of Buddhism - is still required for a beginner.
But if one does the practises himself, gradually, he will see for himselves that the truths that Buddha taught is true. Then his confidence will gradually grow further. This is important. -
But past lives is not necessary for enlightenment.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Although I want to add one thing: confidence in the Three Treasures is still very helpful and necessary.
Why? Because unless we are confident in a particular scientific method - though it is already a tried and tested method by countless others - we would not do the experiment ourselves.
So faith - in the sense confidence in the 'scientific methods' of Buddhism - is still required for a beginner.
But if one does the practises himself, gradually, he will see for himselves that the truths that Buddha taught is true. Then his confidence will gradually grow further. This is important. -
Even Buddha , was a creation. So the question is Buddha was God's creation? -
There are very consistent evidences - try Ian Stevenson, and many others. It is not just memories, many are traced and proven.Originally posted by january:As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not lead to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent.
Herzog_zwei challenged recently that memories of past lives could be false. I replied:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It cannot be false memories if everything they remember corresponds with reality and facts.
Many of those who remembered past lives visited their old homes, their old families (even though they no longer recognised them)
My Buddhist master and teachers certainly did remember their past lives, they were teachers in a Zen Monastery in Kyoto in previous life. Some of the japanese monks visited one of my taiwanese teachers and my taiwanese teacher could even speak Japanese to them (not that he learnt in this life, he could remember). My local dharma teacher has also went back to Japan to visit her old monastery too, if memory serves.
They even brought one of their past life photo and it looked eerily similar to his current looks.
These is just a very brief example.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Interesting article I posted in the forum before: Boy remembers Past Life Being Shot in WWII
His memory is an example of what I call, 'corresponding to facts'
Related topic: Reincarnation
There are lots and lots of others which are documented. -
I'm sorry if you have Christian beliefs... but.. in Buddhism we do not believe in a Creator God.. so the question of God does not apply.Originally posted by NotFromVenus:Even Buddha , was a creation. So the question is Buddha was God's creation? -
I'm not saying blindly belief in everything that is saidOriginally posted by Cenarious:But past lives is not necessary for enlightenment.
Blind faith is never required, in fact despised, in Buddhism.
I mean the practises, confidence in practising, the ability of the triple gems to lead us to enlightenment, nirvana, is most important.
But for other issues... well, since we are discussing about his book these days I will use Dharma Dan for an example. Even though 'high level practises' are discussed in Dharma Dan's books, I think he rarely or even never discussed about it. He certainly did remember past lives, but he knows it is not so important to discuss it, so he left that topic out in his book.
Ajahn Brahmavamso also did recall his past lives, but when people interested to know about it he replied "Go meditate and remember your past lives yourself." -
for those people who claim that they have seen their past lives.....
so what? what is the application then? does that mean that death is not a bad thing because you will always have another life....
if you look at science and nature of knowledge.... it is something that is built upon time over time... theories lead to application leading to more discoveries, more theories, more application and lead to the civilisation of human race....
vehicles today have round wheels is something that the past has discovered like many centuries ago.... all these knwoledges are useful and past down, modifed , improved and lead to more and more application....
computer knowledge integrates with vehicle and leads to smart cars....
this is how science and knowledge does.. they lead to more and more useful things and through intergration of different knowledge, new things are being built.....
cannot you see that a building of a ship requires the cooperation of different knowledges in different people......
therefore, you people who believe can talk all you want about seeing vivdly your past life.. so therefore there is indeed past and future life....
but the question is.. so what are you going to do about it..... is there any real benefits and applications you have come up with... does it lead to more knowledges....
all i can see of religions, god and past lives theories is that it always come up wtih some pseudo reasonings, plus many evidence from some people experiences, and may kinds of stories and finally string them all up with a kind of reasoning which in the end therefore is an unbreakable truth to believers......
this is the reality that there are many believers of god, past lives so i keep thinking how i can help you people to "see the light" and walk out of your shadow of ignorance....
first there are two groups of people. their older generation in the 40-50 and above they have little education and it is extremely difficult to talk to them about proper reasoning.
the younger generation are only a little better than the older generation.. and the lack of studying useful subjects and the spending of most of the time playing and enjoying our lives has made the younger generation not very knowledgeabel about truth...
they are more knowledgeable about things like PS3, Pornograph, how to be a good basketballer, how to get a girlfriend......and where to find good food....watch nice television shows....
i feel like i am gandalf. i need to find back my white stick which will act as a beacon of light to guide people out of the darkness...... and become smarter people with more correct beliefs... only then..... the world will improve faster if its human inhabitants are smarter people -
So what is the application of our appendix then?Originally posted by january:for those people who claim that they have seen their past lives.....
so what? what is the application then? does that mean that death is not a bad thing because you will always have another life....
if you look at science and nature of knowledge.... it is something that is built upon time over time... theories lead to application leading to more discoveries, more theories, more application and lead to the civilisation of human race....
vehicles today have round wheels is something that the past has discovered like many centuries ago.... all these knwoledges are useful and past down, modifed , improved and lead to more and more application....
computer knowledge integrates with vehicle and leads to smart cars....
this is how science and knowledge does.. they lead to more and more useful things and through intergration of different knowledge, new things are being built.....
cannot you see that a building of a ship requires the cooperation of different knowledges in different people......
therefore, you people who believe can talk all you want about seeing vivdly your past life.. so therefore there is indeed past and future life....
but the question is.. so what are you going to do about it..... is there any real benefits and applications you have come up with... does it lead to more knowledges....
all i can see of religions, god and past lives theories is that it always come up wtih some pseudo reasonings, plus many evidence from some people experiences, and may kinds of stories and finally string them all up with a kind of reasoning which in the end therefore is an unbreakable truth to believers......
this is the reality that there are many believers of god, past lives so i keep thinking how i can help you people to "see the light" and walk out of your shadow of ignorance....
first there are two groups of people. their older generation in the 40-50 and above they have little education and it is extremely difficult to talk to them about proper reasoning.
the younger generation are only a little better than the older generation.. and the lack of studying useful subjects and the spending of most of the time playing and enjoying our lives has made the younger generation not very knowledgeabel about truth...
they are more knowledgeable about things like PS3, Pornograph, how to be a good basketballer, how to get a girlfriend......and where to find good food....watch nice television shows....
i feel like i am gandalf. i need to find back my white stick which will act as a beacon of light to guide people out of the darkness...... and become smarter people with more correct beliefs... only then..... the world will improve faster if its human inhabitants are smarter people -
So buddhahood is a manifestation of extreme "highness" upon death?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I'm sorry if you have Christian beliefs... but.. in Buddhism we do not believe in a Creator God.. so the question of God does not apply.
Do you know that tibetan monks meditate themselves to death by exfuming the liquid from their heads and caused a rainbow to appear from the beams of lights from holes in the ceilings and people think they have achieved buddhahood ???
The next thing they knew is these so call "arhats" are nowhere near heaven and hell and the angels have to keep them until they can find new births to bind their spirits back to earth. -
I dun think that chap is a Christian. So you can safely ignore him.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I'm sorry if you have Christian beliefs... but.. in Buddhism we do not believe in a Creator God.. so the question of God does not apply. -
------Originally posted by january:
for those people who claim that they have seen their past lives.....
so what? what is the application then? does that mean that death is not a bad thing because you will always have another life....[/quote]
No. It can strengthen our will to seek an ending to suffering, (even though without knowing rebirth we can still seek the highest bliss and liberation of nirvana) so that even though if we may be reborn again, we are largely liberated and will be happier. At a higher, we can even end rebirth and enter into the highest bliss (not mundane joy or pleasures) of Nirvana. The bliss is not just a good feeling, it is quite indescribable since Nirvana is beyond time and space.if you look at science and nature of knowledge.... it is something that is built upon time over time... theories lead to application leading to more discoveries, more theories, more application and lead to the civilisation of human race....
With regards to the truth leading to perfect liberation, Buddha already has it. It cannot be improved because the realm beyond time and space and form cannot be improved.
vehicles today have round wheels is something that the past has discovered like many centuries ago.... all these knwoledges are useful and past down, modifed , improved and lead to more and more application....
computer knowledge integrates with vehicle and leads to smart cars....
this is how science and knowledge does.. they lead to more and more useful things and through intergration of different knowledge, new things are being built.....cannot you see that a building of a ship requires the cooperation of different knowledges in different people......
Not very important except it can strengthen your will to be liberated, so you will practise harder. Longchen said:
therefore, you people who believe can talk all you want about seeing vivdly your past life.. so therefore there is indeed past and future life....
but the question is.. so what are you going to do about it..... is there any real benefits and applications you have come up with... does it lead to more knowledges....Originally posted by longchen:
Yes, you are right, the reincarnation/rebirth cycle is really full of suffering and unsatisfactoriness. It is clearly more so... if one have seen across lifetimes.
Every single one of us is looking for happiness... it is 'embedded' within Universal Mind. It is just that the way most of us are doing it is not very effective. We think that we can get what we want in the rebirths.
[quote]all i can see of religions, god and past lives theories is that it always come up wtih some pseudo reasonings, plus many evidence from some people experiences, and may kinds of stories and finally string them all up with a kind of reasoning which in the end therefore is an unbreakable truth to believers......If something can be totally disproved then we might have to accept it.
However, so far, and I don't think it can be, rebirth has never been disproved.
But so far, countless have realised this to be true.this is the reality that there are many believers of god, past lives so i keep thinking how i can help you people to "see the light" and walk out of your shadow of ignorance....
I agree with you that logic is higher than mythic. I will elaborate on that. (Oh by the way are you the one who replied me in the Atheist Unite thread whereby I pasted Ken Wilber's article?)
first there are two groups of people. their older generation in the 40-50 and above they have little education and it is extremely difficult to talk to them about proper reasoning.
the younger generation are only a little better than the older generation.. and the lack of studying useful subjects and the spending of most of the time playing and enjoying our lives has made the younger generation not very knowledgeabel about truth...they are more knowledgeable about things like PS3, Pornograph, how to be a good basketballer, how to get a girlfriend......and where to find good food....watch nice television shows....
Yes again logic, intelligence, knowledge, is more valuable than all those.
i feel like i am gandalf. i need to find back my white stick which will act as a beacon of light to guide people out of the darkness...... and become smarter people with more correct beliefs... only then..... the world will improve faster if its human inhabitants are smarter people
But there is something even higher. I will elaborate on that. -
Originally posted by NotFromVenus:
Buddhahood is the highest, yes. But it is achieved when a person is living, not when he is dead. But an enlightened person can enter Nirvana at death.
So buddhahood is a manifestation of extreme "highness" upon death?Do you know that tibetan monks meditate themselves to death by exfuming the liquid from their heads and caused a rainbow to appear from the beams of lights from holes in the ceilings and people think they have achieved buddhahood ???
Never heard of such things. Can you pls provide sources, articles, etc.
The next thing they knew is these so call "arhats" are nowhere near heaven and hell and the angels have to keep them until they can find new births to bind their spirits back to earth.
An arhat means he does not need to reborn. A liberated person merges with the Clear Light of our primordial nature and does not need enter the cycle of rebirth. Unless he returns to samsara due to Bodhisattva vows, but that is not due to karma, but due to the strength of vows, and is an entirely different thing altogether.
There is definitely no 'soul' or 'spirit' waiting for rebirth. There is no intermediate consciousness for one who is enlightened. -
Isn't a vow also a condition?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Never heard of such things. Can you pls provide sources, articles, etc.
An arhat means he does not need to reborn. A liberated person merges with the Clear Light of our primordial nature and does not need enter the cycle of rebirth. Unless he returns to samsara due to Bodhisattva vows, but that is not due to karma, but due to the strength of vows, and is an entirely different thing altogether.
There is definitely no 'soul' or 'spirit' waiting for rebirth. There is no intermediate consciousness for one who is enlightened. -
Erm you may want to look at the "Self Mummification of Tibetan Monks"Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Never heard of such things. Can you pls provide sources, articles, etc.
An arhat means he does not need to reborn. A liberated person merges with the Clear Light of our primordial nature and does not need enter the cycle of rebirth. Unless he returns to samsara due to Bodhisattva vows, but that is not due to karma, but due to the strength of vows, and is an entirely different thing altogether.
There is definitely no 'soul' or 'spirit' waiting for rebirth. There is no intermediate consciousness for one who is enlightened.
So called living buddhas, they starved themselves during long meditations and ate herbs that could mummify themselves.
Finally those who have the abilities to dehydrate themselves at will. -
But it is neither virtuous nor unvirtuos karma that binds us to higher or lower realms respectively. I am not sure if it is considered pure karma.Originally posted by Cenarious:Isn't a vow also a condition?
Any experts here?
Also we have no controls over our next life because karma is the factor which will result in our next life. No control does not mean I cannot do good things to be reborn in better place, it means, at the time of death, you cannot 'choose' your next birth. If you come by vows, you can 'choose' your birth. -
I am not sure if this is true and I will take note of it if I come by the library.Originally posted by NotFromVenus:Erm you may want to look at the "Self Mummification of Tibetan Monks"
So called living buddhas, they starved themselves during long meditations and ate herbs that could mummify themselves.
Finally those who have the abilities to dehydrate themselves at will.
But if this is true, I believe they are led to practise wrongly and does not lead to liberation.
Countless others have been enlightened and liberated, they do not end up in such states. This is the first time I heard such a weird thing. -
How do you know this is the wrong, since they are so strong in their knowledge of "karma" and reincarnations too??Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I am not sure if this is true and I will take note of it if I come by the library.
But if this is true, I believe they are led to practise wrongly and does not lead to liberation.
Countless others have been enlightened and liberated, they do not end up in such states. This is the first time I heard such a weird thing. -
Ok now for elaboration.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes again logic, intelligence, knowledge, is more valuable than all those.
But there is something even higher. I will elaborate on that.
I actually posted this in the Chit Chat topic, Atheists Unite!Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Here's something for fellow Atheists to consider
Even though as a Buddhist the word 'God' is not in our dictionary, but this article does has its points.
http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/191
Journal
[b]The New Atheism is as Flat as a Pancake
November 13, 2006 21:00
(posted by ~C4Chaos)
I just finished reading the recent WIRED feature on The New Atheism. The trinity of active mainstream atheists (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett) are at it again evangelizing the gospel of the God-less society.
For the most part, I agree with them. Belief in God is not required and it's the cause of so much suffering around the world via religious extremisms. However, their approach is too fundamentalistic for my taste. While I personally don't limit the idea of God to its Christian or Muslim or Jewish concept, I also don't think that logic and rationalism alone could ever take the place of faith and religion. It's like saying that integral calculus can be taught to students without them learning basic algebra.
The biggest flaw of the New Atheists is that, their ideas, no matter how rational, are FLAT. They are too focused attacking the the idea of God without defining which level of God they're attacking. I say that they're pretty much attacking the mythic God. However, they're making a lot of performative contradictions and thus elevate their own level of God in the process: the mental God (read: logic, rational).
But if there's one good thing that the New Atheists are doing, it's that they're elevating the psychological development of people who are ready to step out of mythic belief in God. I just hope that these people don't get stuck in rational level because there are other higher levels of God that can only be understood and appreciated once we take a skinny dip into the trans-rational.
Kudos to the WIRED article for not buying into the atheistic Kool Aid
"The New Atheists have castigated fundamentalism and branded even the mildest religious liberals as enablers of a vengeful mob. Everybody who does not join them is an ally of the Taliban. But, so far, their provocation has failed to take hold. Given all the religious trauma in the world, I take this as good news. Even those of us who sympathize intellectually have good reasons to wish that the New Atheists continue to seem absurd. If we reject their polemics, if we continue to have respectful conversations even about things we find ridiculous, this doesn't necessarily mean we've lost our convictions or our sanity. It simply reflects our deepest, democratic values. Or, you might say, our bedrock faith: the faith that no matter how confident we are in our beliefs, there's always a chance we could turn out to be wrong."
(Note: For more details on levels of God and a more-embracing spirituality, check out the book Integral Spirituality, and the ISC portal).[/b][/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
You should really read Ken Wilber's book, for a start on theoretical knowledge, A Brief History of Everything is a must-read for Ken Wilber's titles. That's also his best selling one.
Trans-rational experiences are intersubjective, in fact, there are 4 levels of transrational, transpersonal experiences that Ken Wilber has mapped that spans across different spiritual or non spiritual contemplative traditions that is experienced by lots and lots of people throughout history and even today. I myself have experienced one level of transrational experience, and my other friends in the forum has experienced more or all of the transrational experiences Altogether there are 10 stages of human consciousness, mythic and rational/logic are lower than the transrational.
Unfortunately I don't have the book with me otherwise I can quote from the book.. really a good read.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:His philosophy is quite wide naturally since it is an integral viewpoint. But I can ascertain you that from my experience and my friend's experience and many others' experience that there is indeed a higher reality and that it is similar to what Ken Wilber has mapped.
And transrational is not prerational, it's quite different. So there is no doubt and confusion over what is prerational and transrational for one with the sort of experiences. It is not a personal opinion - because of the different levels of holons and I think I won't elaborate here - you have to read his book and you will understand how it is not so..
Anyway his book is truly worth reading and considering, of course any philosophy that is as wide as his will attract many critics of different schools of thought. But if we can experience ourself intuitively we will know it to be true. -
I do not know if they are wrong for 100%, just as I do not know 100% what happened is exactly true, and I have yet to read the book.Originally posted by NotFromVenus:How do you know this is the wrong, since they are so strong in their knowledge of "karma" and reincarnations too??
But there are many people who have been led to practise deviantly and these practises does not lead to liberation - the monks could be of similar case. -
now january come and ka chiao Buddhism after Christianity...
come lets guess the next one -
Show some respect.Originally posted by january:As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not lead to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent.