why do people believe in past lives?
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If indeed science could prove everything, why are the the scientists publishing new discoveries they've made now and then? Example, if there's no expedition to the deep end of Pacific Ocean, are you saying that the living creatures there doesn't exist? Same theory applies. Right now, there's far and few researches done on Meditation and Reincarnation, but that doesn't mean that these practises and beliefs are baseless.Originally posted by january:As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not lead to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent. -
I can't seems to find this book by the title. However, I do acknowledge self mummification does exists in Japan, but not in Tibetan.Originally posted by NotFromVenus:Erm you may want to look at the "Self Mummification of Tibetan Monks"
So called living buddhas, they starved themselves during long meditations and ate herbs that could mummify themselves.
Finally those who have the abilities to dehydrate themselves at will.
Anyway, nobody does that now. In fact, Nichiren Buddhist acknowledged that this practises was not in accordance to the teachings of Sokushin Jobutsu, as one can't attain anything out of self mummification.
I'm not an expert in this area, maybe AEN could fill me in. -
There was a TV documentary on this in Discovery Channel.
Guess you can find some clues, "Rou Shen Pu Sa". -
Before Buddhism, Tibet already has a shamanic tradition. It is possible that shamanic practices got mixed in. Also, there are 2 main religions in Tibet that has monkhood... Buddhism and Bon.Originally posted by NotFromVenus:There was a TV documentary on this in Discovery Channel.
Guess you can find some clues, "Rou Shen Pu Sa".
Tradition and culture will alway infiltrate themselve into any original traditions. For example the Taoism as understood and practiced by laypersons is different from the 'hardcore' Taoism. -
No. It can strengthen our will to seek an ending to suffering, (even though without knowing rebirth we can still seek the highest bliss and liberation of nirvana) so that even though if we may be reborn again, we are largely liberated and will be happier. At a higher, we can even end rebirth and enter into the highest bliss (not mundane joy or pleasures) of Nirvana. The bliss is not just a good feeling, it is quite indescribable since Nirvana is beyond time and space.
An arhat means he does not need to reborn. A liberated person merges with the Clear Light of our primordial nature and does not need enter the cycle of rebirth. Unless he returns to samsara due to Bodhisattva vows, but that is not due to karma, but due to the strength of vows, and is an entirely different thing altogether.
these types of explanation by typical of chirstian and other religion is really very strange.....
There is definitely no 'soul' or 'spirit' waiting for rebirth. There is no intermediate consciousness for one who is enlightened.
the really can convince themselves with tons and tons of circular explanations that support their belief system of their religion.
but the common characteristics of their explanation is that they have alot of definitions, theories, stories which goes on and on they always say that it is something which science cannot handle and it is outside the realm of space and time........
however, there is still no uses of their stories, and theories , no real application to mankind in a convincing way.. but it just remain in the realm of untouchable and uncomprehensible knowledge where noraml man cannot see and achieve....... -
Hi January,Originally posted by january:these types of explanation by typical of chirstian and other religion is really very strange.....
the really can convince themselves with tons and tons of circular explanations that support their belief system of their religion.
but the common characteristics of their explanation is that they have alot of definitions, theories, stories which goes on and on they always say that it is something which science cannot handle and it is outside the realm of space and time........
however, there is still no uses of their stories, and theories , no real application to mankind in a convincing way.. but it just remain in the realm of untouchable and uncomprehensible knowledge where noraml man cannot see and achieve.......
What you say is very logical... and i think skepticism to a certain degree is good.
Yes, past life in the conventional senses have no real application.
Well, you already knew all the answers... then why do you keep coming up to debunk these stuff?
Is this to show how intellectually superior you are? If it isn't, then what is your motive of posting this?
Thanks. -
If indeed science could prove everything, why are the the scientists publishing new discoveries they've made now and then? Example, if there's no expedition to the deep end of Pacific Ocean, are you saying that the living creatures there doesn't exist? Same theory applies. Right now, there's far and few researches done on Meditation and Reincarnation, but that doesn't mean that these practises and beliefs are baseless.
this is another universal response by people with not enough knowledge....
science has never claim that it could prove everything.... the universe is too big and has too many data.... we have limited branpower... we can only keep researching and researching in a scientific way and gain as much knowledge everyday.......
we could tell that past lives theroies are crap because it is obvious from us people.......
who say that no life can exist in pacific ocean deep end..... scientist only say that it is unlikely.... yes i agree scientist do make mistakes in their beliefs system....
science is always about theories under certain assumptions and as new knowledge is form, certain assumptions and theories has to be modified...
religious people therefore tend to use this aspect of science and therefore say that past lives, god and all their strange strange beliefs may be true....
there are alot of old wife tales in the past.... saying you cannot do this on certain days and you cannot do that blar blar blar.....
but do you follow them... because there are no true and following them is a waste of time... if we follow what you say...
then we have to spend lots of money on UFOs findings.... we have to spend more money on christian practices , other religion practises, on astrology reading, on tarot practices , on past lives theories.
there are so many many religious types of practices in the world ... all claiming they have evidence for their beliefs... so do you want the whole world to spend the money on researching all these funny funny theories....
all these funny funny theories has the same amount of theories and stories and evidence as compared to the past lives theories and mediation that leads to nirvana.......
science and knowledge building has to be selective and choose the area of knowledge that it wants to invest in.......
things like medicine, genetic studies, disease control, logistic control, monetry movement, crime control, junvenile deliquent, engineering problem, are problems that are real and indeed we could overcome and come up with new knowledge and benefits to ourselves....
things like past lives, god and cultural practices will still be carried out by believers because when people have free time, they tend to spend some time to carry out their hobbies.......
we have to educate these people to stop these hobbies which they think is useful and ask them to do better and more productive things -
Hi January,
i debunk theories because its not enough for me alone to have the correct theories..... we have a responsiblity to change others wrong beliefs to right ones....
What you say is very logical... and i think skepticism to a certain degree is good.
Yes, past life in the conventional senses have no real application.
Well, you already knew all the answers... then why do you keep coming up to debunk these stuff?
Is this to show how intellectually superior you are? If it isn't, then what is your motive of posting this?
Thanks.
if a kid thinks that drinking a cup filled with detergent with okay.....
do you try to tell him and educate him that his knowledge and beliefs are wrong and you need to change your beliefs...
we have to change other wrong beliefs so that with correct beliefs, they will do things that truly better improve life on earth.... we cannot just mind our our business and allow different beliefs to exist and just avoid discussing our differences.....
if everyone has different beliefs and we allow it to remain that way.. how do you create a teamwork effect.... christian wants to do things their way... some people just pray and pray and pray.... and atheist contend with their right beliefs just let the others believe wha ttheir want...
if this happens, the world will not improve well enough.... education is therefore important .... -
This is a very insightful post.Originally posted by january:this is another universal response by people with not enough knowledge....
science has never claim that it could prove everything.... the universe is too big and has too many data.... we have limited branpower... we can only keep researching and researching in a scientific way and gain as much knowledge everyday.......
we could tell that past lives theroies are crap because it is obvious from us people.......
who say that no life can exist in pacific ocean deep end..... scientist only say that it is unlikely.... yes i agree scientist do make mistakes in their beliefs system....
science is always about theories under certain assumptions and as new knowledge is form, certain assumptions and theories has to be modified...
religious people therefore tend to use this aspect of science and therefore say that past lives, god and all their strange strange beliefs may be true....
there are alot of old wife tales in the past.... saying you cannot do this on certain days and you cannot do that blar blar blar.....
but do you follow them... because there are no true and following them is a waste of time... if we follow what you say...
then we have to spend lots of money on UFOs findings.... we have to spend more money on christian practices , other religion practises, on astrology reading, on tarot practices , on past lives theories.
there are so many many religious types of practices in the world ... all claiming they have evidence for their beliefs... so do you want the whole world to spend the money on researching all these funny funny theories....
all these funny funny theories has the same amount of theories and stories and evidence as compared to the past lives theories and mediation that leads to nirvana.......
science and knowledge building has to be selective and choose the area of knowledge that it wants to invest in.......
things like medicine, genetic studies, disease control, logistic control, monetry movement, crime control, junvenile deliquent, engineering problem, are problems that are real and indeed we could overcome and come up with new knowledge and benefits to ourselves....
things like past lives, god and cultural practices will still be carried out by believers because when people have free time, they tend to spend some time to carry out their hobbies.......
we have to educate these people to stop these hobbies which they think is useful and ask them to do better and more productive things
Look at science... It is like a double edge sword... Fixed a problem... create newer ones. This is the fundamental dynamics of linear mode cognition.
Scientific invention...Industrial revolution.... lead to global pollution... what's next?
A truly intelligent method will be to once and for all, solve this at the fundamental level... that renders all other solutions punitive. That is real wisdom. -
i not debunking theories and beliefs to show that i am intellectually superior...
i do not believe in feeling proud and happy that others are wrong and i am right....
i speak out because i need people to rectify their beliefs so that the world can improve better .... simple as that....
if i do not try to change people and the world....
people will just keep going to temple and ask god for advices as if they really work....
people will keep reading the bible and find answers in them thinking it will lead to more benfits..
people will keep doing religious activities like burning incense, offering food, praying and praying...
people will go to medium and spiritual people for advice instead of going for propering cousellor
do you know how much time and resourcs are wasted in these activities...
earth has limited resources and there are many real problem that need to be dealt with not with supertitions and peopl really working hard to come out with real solutions...
in order to change supertition, i need therefore to educate others.... -
everyone hopes there is a cure all solutions... you think science do not want a perfect solution?
This is a very insightful post.
Look at science... It is like a double edge sword... Fixed a problem... create newer ones. This is the fundamental dynamics of linear mode cognition.
Scientific invention...Industrial revolution.... lead to global pollution... what's next?
A truly intelligent method will be to once and for all, solve this at the fundamental level... that renders all other solutions punitive. That is real wisdom.
the problem is so far.. in centuries,.. there was no perfect solution.... science and knowledge that life is consisitng of many many things inteconnected together
and civilisation so far has been working on the basis of learning as many little little things together.. intergrate and differentaite knowledge and come up with bits of bits of benefits..... and improve step by step all the time.....
this is the way life is and you think that there is a perfect solution that solves anything in life.... you are being unrealistics.... -
Hey you havent answered me about the appendix yet.
If our appendix are useless why do doctors tell us about them?
Because they're there, and some people have food going in there and end up half dead, so doctors have to tell us it is the appendix's fault.
Similarly for meditators who meditate until they can see their past lives. Because it's there, but you don't have to believe it until you see it for yourself. It's not even needed for enlightenment!
Am I making sense? -
Yes, you just say it all.Originally posted by january:everyone hopes there is a cure all solutions... you think science do not want a perfect solution?
the problem is so far.. in centuries,.. there was no perfect solution.... science and knowledge that life is consisitng of many many things inteconnected together
and civilisation so far has been working on the basis of learning as many little little things together.. intergrate and differentaite knowledge and come up with bits of bits of benefits..... and improve step by step all the time.....
this is the way life is and you think that there is a perfect solution that solves anything in life.... you are being unrealistics....
There is no perfect solution... there can never be with all the complexities of the world.
So... since there can never be a perfect solution... isn't it UNREALISTIC to be constantly trying to solve them... like the way you advocated?
Which is more unrealistic? -
Originally posted by january:
See my comments above. Maybe you could list out some Buddhist activities, to support your view that Buddhism is mere superstitious. From what I can see, you really dón't know much about it.
i not debunking theories and beliefs to show that i am intellectually
if i do not try to change people and the world....
people will just keep going to temple and ask god for advices as if they really work.... not buddhist
people will keep reading the bible and find answers in them thinking it will lead to more benfits..not buddhist
people will keep doing religious activities like burning incense, offering food, praying and praying...not buddhist
people will go to medium and spiritual people for advice instead of going for propering cousellor not buddhist
in order to change supertition, i need therefore to educate others....
[/b] -
what do your troubles have to do with anyone here? and for all of those who tried rebutting him - why are your troubles arising?Originally posted by january:As a atheist and pro-scient person... it is very clear to me that past life theory is bullsh.t....
some of the explanation and evidence given in some post are....
some people have vivid memory of blar... blar...
some people can recall certain places although they never been there before....blar blar blar....
those mediation experts has .....
all these explanation to me reflects nothing more than poor reasoning skills.
all the evidence are so weak, does not lead to any application and real use in reality, and are base on what we call anedocate evidence...
does not mean that mediators experience a certain transcendent state.. remember vivdly their past lives... means that there is indeed past lives........
seriously evidence is something that is very consistent. -
Wrong. The point in Buddhism is everyone can achieve it. So of course there is application.Originally posted by january:these types of explanation by typical of chirstian and other religion is really very strange.....
the really can convince themselves with tons and tons of circular explanations that support their belief system of their religion.
but the common characteristics of their explanation is that they have alot of definitions, theories, stories which goes on and on they always say that it is something which science cannot handle and it is outside the realm of space and time........
however, there is still no uses of their stories, and theories , no real application to mankind in a convincing way.. but it just remain in the realm of untouchable and uncomprehensible knowledge where noraml man cannot see and achieve.......
That particular reply wasn't discussing about how science can or cannot prove whether those things can be achieved. Actually it is possible to a certain degree. Why don't you look at: Brain Waves of Enlightened People -
Originally posted by january:
Long ago, people say the world is flat because it is obvious that the world has to be flat because we don't see it as round. Or it is obvious that the planet earth has to be at the center of the solar system etc.
we could tell that past lives theroies are crap because it is obvious from us people.......
The Church didn't want to look into Galileo's telescope to see for themselves, they think it is too obvious that Galileo is talking bullshit.
All these are dogmatism. When there is proof, and a scientific method to actually proof it yourself, if you insist on holding on your old view that is just being dogmatic. No difference than any other blind beliefs in any gods or God.who say that no life can exist in pacific ocean deep end..... scientist only say that it is unlikely.... yes i agree scientist do make mistakes in their beliefs system....
The point is that in Buddhism you find out for yourself and do not just blindly stick to beliefs and not do anything, wait to be saved etc. We do not believe in creator God.. we believe that things like liberation, nirvana, is very achievable by everyone in this life.
science is always about theories under certain assumptions and as new knowledge is form, certain assumptions and theories has to be modified...
religious people therefore tend to use this aspect of science and therefore say that past lives, god and all their strange strange beliefs may be true....there are alot of old wife tales in the past.... saying you cannot do this on certain days and you cannot do that blar blar blar.....
Unfortunately for Buddhist practitioners who have done the practise and seen for themselves the results, Buddhism is definitely not waste of time and it can help people so much.
but do you follow them... because there are no true and following them is a waste of time... if we follow what you say...
then we have to spend lots of money on UFOs findings.... we have to spend more money on christian practices , other religion practises, on astrology reading, on tarot practices , on past lives theories.there are so many many religious types of practices in the world ... all claiming they have evidence for their beliefs... so do you want the whole world to spend the money on researching all these funny funny theories....
Except that in Buddhism we have experiential evidence. Most other religions are stuck on beliefs. With exception of contemplative traditions which indeed has lots of similarities with Buddhism (i.e Taoists, Christian, Judaist mystics, Islam Sufism, Hindu Advaita, or even certain New Age circles etc). These are the ones that really want to find out for themselves, not just believe, but truly experience what is taught.
all these funny funny theories has the same amount of theories and stories and evidence as compared to the past lives theories and mediation that leads to nirvana.......science and knowledge building has to be selective and choose the area of knowledge that it wants to invest in.......
In Buddhism the 4 noble truths already stated so clearly what are the problems, and the solution to the problems. These problems are very real and Buddha provided a way to overcome them. So of course anyone, everyone can benefit from it.
things like medicine, genetic studies, disease control, logistic control, monetry movement, crime control, junvenile deliquent, engineering problem, are problems that are real and indeed we could overcome and come up with new knowledge and benefits to ourselves....things like past lives, god and cultural practices will still be carried out by believers because when people have free time, they tend to spend some time to carry out their hobbies.......
Buddhism don't worship gods nor is cultural practices emphasized.
we have to educate these people to stop these hobbies which they think is useful and ask them to do better and more productive things
Past lives is not the important thing in Buddhism, and indeed it does not have much application. Although this does not mean it is false - that is why I have been suggesting there is both scientific evidence, and countless others who did remember their past lives. So all I am saying is that it is possible to find out for ourselves that past lives and afterlife is true. And even if you do not want to remember past lives, the ability to recall will naturally come when your Buddhist practise reaches certain level.
I suggest you find out more about Buddhism first to know how does Buddhism relate to our lives and how it can help people. -
Originally posted by january:
And so far, none of what you said are the practises of Buddhism. They are Chinese folks tradition and Christianity.
i not debunking theories and beliefs to show that i am intellectually superior...
i do not believe in feeling proud and happy that others are wrong and i am right....
i speak out because i need people to rectify their beliefs so that the world can improve better .... simple as that....
if i do not try to change people and the world....
people will just keep going to temple and ask god for advices as if they really work....
people will keep reading the bible and find answers in them thinking it will lead to more benfits..
people will keep doing religious activities like burning incense, offering food, praying and praying...
people will go to medium and spiritual people for advice instead of going for propering cousellor
I would like to remind you of the article about atheist in the Ken Wilber website (and if you haven't read it, pls do it now). Most atheists are stuck on refuting the mythic level, this is good in the sense it can pull one up to the level of logic/vision level of consciousness.. but... --...The biggest flaw of the New Atheists is that, their ideas, no matter how rational, are FLAT. They are too focused attacking the the idea of God without defining which level of God they're attacking. I say that they're pretty much attacking the mythic God. However, they're making a lot of performative contradictions and thus elevate their own level of God in the process: the mental God (read: logic, rational).
But if there's one good thing that the New Atheists are doing, it's that they're elevating the psychological development of people who are ready to step out of mythic belief in God. I just hope that these people don't get stuck in rational level because there are other higher levels of God that can only be understood and appreciated once we take a skinny dip into the trans-rational...do you know how much time and resourcs are wasted in these activities...
Like I said Buddha gave a real, working, solution to specific problems. And countless have already been liberated by practising them.
earth has limited resources and there are many real problem that need to be dealt with not with supertitions and peopl really working hard to come out with real solutions...
in order to change supertition, i need therefore to educate others.... -
Hmm. You can reincarnate into a tree or an insect right? Or the teachings also do suggest that insects and trees are also living and attain enlightenment?
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Trees are inanimate things without consciousness - they do not have 5 senses.Originally posted by pwnz0r:Hmm. You can reincarnate into a tree or an insect right? Or the teachings also do suggest that insects and trees are also living and attain enlightenment?
People cannot 'reborn' as trees. But it is possible that spirits inhabit trees, thus known as tree spirits.
Insects are conscious, have buddha nature, and will be able attain buddhahood. But it will take very long for them to be able to reborn as human and start practising due to their karma. -
To January: Spirituality is deep science rather than narrow science.Originally posted by sinweiy:Ken Wilber - Spirituality and the 3 Strands of Deep Science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M&mode=related&search=
most people are still at the level or understanding of narrow science.
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Regardless of what you choose to believe in, the fact remains that the Human Mind is incredibly powerful and most of us are nowhere close in tapping its ultimate potential.
And yes, there is a God. He's probably laughing at this debate at the moment.
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I agree on your first para. Dont agree on the second.Originally posted by Enigmatic1:Regardless of what you choose to believe in, the fact remains that the Human Mind is incredibly powerful and most of us are nowhere close in tapping its ultimate potential.
And yes, there is a God. He's probably laughing at this debate at the moment. -
Like I have mentioned.. there is no Creator God in Buddhism. We do not suscribe to any notions of a personal God --Originally posted by Enigmatic1:And yes, there is a God. He's probably laughing at this debate at the moment.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" -- Albert Einstein [1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatism. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be BuddhismÂ…"
-- Albert Einstein -
Very long hmm.. Due to their karma hmm...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Trees are inanimate things without consciousness - they do not have 5 senses.
People cannot 'reborn' as trees. But it is possible that spirits inhabit trees, thus known as tree spirits.
Insects are conscious, have buddha nature, and will be able attain buddhahood. But it will take very long for them to be able to reborn as human and start practising due to their karma.
Just wondering, when you say due to their karma, it means that 'negative'? How can a fly perform good deeds to 'turn their karma around'? I mean, as a fly, it probably lacks conciousness and cognitive and probably doesn't even have a belief system. How would you rationalise that?
What about other animals like clams, sea urchins and the like? I mean these are living even without the 5 senses. So what inhabits them, if they have no souls?