why do people believe in past lives?
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Very true...indeed.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:This is a question of how would Buddhism help people. The applications of Buddhism is very wide and can be realised within this lifetime through practising what the Buddha taught. Other religions teach about doing good, avoiding evil, and they usually teach about the possibility of being reborn in heaven, or a better place. In Buddhism we also teach there is this possibility to reborn in a better place due to karma, but in Buddhism rebirth in any better place within the 6 realms of existence is not ultimate. In Buddhism, we teach about liberation from Samsara as well, and it is not just a matter of doing good and avoiding evil, creating good karma.
You do not even need to see your past lives to experience the bliss of nirvana, to experience freedom from all vexations, all dukkha, and attain purity of mind. In Buddhism, other than doing good and avoiding evil, we emphasize a lot on purification of the mind and mind training, and eventually to attain liberation. This is something that is special in Buddhism -- the chance of liberation. We can experience the fruition of the attainment of sainthood in our lifetime. Therefore I said Buddhist practices' applications are very wide in the present. The three trainings - Morality, Concentration, Insights, each of them have benefits in our lives. If we master them, we can achieve what Buddha and other enlightened beings achieved.
Also in Buddhism it is not just a matter of 'belief', much less is 'Mi2 Xing4' (superstition). We must practise and learn from Buddha, not theoretical or academic, we must cultivate what the Buddha cultivate, practise what the Buddha practised. And see the results for ourselves.
January... even if you do not believe in past life... it is fine.
Buddhism, is in fact, very very advanced psychology. It is so advanced that current scientist and researcher have not even scratched what Buddha has found.
If you do not believe in all the mystical stuff... Buddhism can still be seem from a very practical psychological approach. -
Also in Buddhism it is not just a matter of 'belief', much less is 'Mi2 Xing4' (superstition). It is not just blindly believe in what Buddha said
you said it yourself.... therefore we must not believe in past life theory yet until it has really being fully tested, verifiable and concrete enough, so concrete that even the chirstian and other religion believe it... -
Yes and one more thing.. even if you cant believe everything, one day, the abilities to see yourself certain aspects that were at first unbelievable will come. Meaning if you didn't bother about past lives, one day you may be able to remember past lives even though you never wanted to know.Originally posted by longchen:Very true...indeed.
January... even if you do not believe in past life... it is fine.
Buddhism, is in fact, very very advanced psychology. It is so advanced that current scientist and researcher have not even scratched what Buddha has found.
If you do not believe in all the mystical stuff... Buddhism can still be seem from a very practical psychological approach. -
Very true...indeed.
okay since you say that buddhism is advanced psychology stage...
January... even if you do not believe in past life... it is fine.
Buddhism, is in fact, very very advanced psychology. It is so advanced that current scientist and researcher have not even scratched what Buddha has found.
If you do not believe in all the mystical stuff... Buddhism can still be seem from a very practical psychological approach.
i shall wait for you to develop the knowledge of past life theories and karma into concrete and mainstream and widespread things where we can see how we can benefit from it....
meanwhile i work in other areas which i believe is more fruitful...
also, i am not against buddhism as a whole.. just some of its sub theories...
i have learned from teachings of desire, non-attachment and methodolody of handling pain.... -
Why wait for me?Originally posted by january:okay since you say that buddhism is advanced psychology stage...
i shall wait for you to develop the knowledge of past life theories and karma into concrete and mainstream and widespread things where we can see how we can benefit from it....
meanwhile i work in other areas which i believe is more fruitful...
also, i am not against buddhism as a whole.. just some of its sub theories...
i have learned from teachings of desire, non-attachment and methodolody of handling pain....
It is already there in place for so long...
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huh..
i personally find belief in past life and karma has a postive effect on me.
Btw im not a supertitious person.
However, despite i 'think' nor do i blindly believe ( THERE IS A DIFFERENCE) there is a past life thingy, i still live this life to my fullest. Cos .. really there is only this ISIS in this lifelife, with the current condition i had have.
The ideal of having a past life make me mindful ( note: not worry this or there )
of the choices i have made. Personally, it gives me happiness.
Aiyea, don't know why u preach that karma and past life is crap theory. It is only ur OWN theory. I am not convinced by ur theory le..
i " think " that is a past life cos i believe in karma. -
oh yeah u don't have to believe in buddhism first to understand it lor.
it just that ur understanding of buddhism.. isn't sufficient
Got some misconceptions.
Note of the " hint hint " All the forumers adi say that ur knowledge isnt that.
though u know some stuffs about buddhism.. but that doesn't mean u really know the stuffs. -
Actually... you already have some doubts about the likely possibility of past life. Or you have found part of Buddhism very true and comfortable to you... but is still uneasy with some of the mystical aspects. Your mind cannot reconcile the apparent discrepencies. You need confirmation.Originally posted by january:okay since you say that buddhism is advanced psychology stage...
i shall wait for you to develop the knowledge of past life theories and karma into concrete and mainstream and widespread things where we can see how we can benefit from it....
meanwhile i work in other areas which i believe is more fruitful...
also, i am not against buddhism as a whole.. just some of its sub theories...
i have learned from teachings of desire, non-attachment and methodolody of handling pain....
If you really go far enough... you will discover that the so-called normal way of dealing with life is inducive of more suffering. This is because there are 'blindspots' in the way people understand themselves. Buddhism allows us to gain deep understanding into these blindspot and make changes accordingly.
In this aspect... its approach is really very advanced psychology. Instead of changing the environment at large, Buddhism deals with the problem from the
root... which is the way we reacte/relate to life. -
Allow me to share my understanding about past lives.
One second ago (and more) were actually our past lives
Nowness is actually at the present moment
One second later (and more) are actually our future lives
+ Infinity > 0 > - Infinity
Does not specifically just mean the lives before we were born and the lives after our death. It is however, inclusived.
Just to highlight, there were many research done in the west about the past lives. Popular method: hypnosis. These are not done by Buddhist communities. You should be able to get good references from library and Internet.
Whether or not you choose to believe this, is really up to you. No worries.
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Good Effort ..thanks for postingOriginally posted by concerned_man:Allow me to share my understanding about past lives.
One second ago (and more) were actually our past lives
Nowness is actually at the present moment
One second later (and more) are actually our future lives
+ Infinity > 0 > - Infinity
Does not specifically just mean the lives before we were born and the lives after our death. It is however, inclusived.
Whether or not you choose to believe this, is really up to you. No worries.
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I shall post a new topic on karma.
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Unfortunately like I mentioned before, even if there are evidence, people dogmatically cling to their old beliefs.Originally posted by january:you said it yourself.... therefore we must not believe in past life theory yet until it has really being fully tested, verifiable and concrete enough, so concrete that even the chirstian and other religion believe it...
Even scientist push certain things that really happened and contradicted their old beliefs away and label them 'anomaly' because those things seems unacceptable to them.
All these are dogmatism. -
Hi January,
U got to differentiate between hard science, soft science and what is meant by being scientific. You may want to ask is the approach adopted by hard science appropriate to deal with qualitative and non-material phenomenon (Although we witness some improvement in this aspect for the past few decades, it is hardly mature).
If you sincerely wish to know about the scientific approach towards past lives, do put it effort to find out more about the research made by Ian Stevenson. Find out more about him, he is well respected. Being a scientist, he knows the limits of science and yet has to work within its constraint to account for these phenomena. Not to brush past lives phenomena away with word like “bullsh.t” without making adequate studies, that is irresponsible and immature. By doing this and in a Buddhist forum, you are mocking others people faith. The sacredness of life cannot be made objective., do not become too mechanical. -
Holding both palm together *Originally posted by Thusness:Hi January,
U got to differentiate between hard science, soft science and what is meant by being scientific. You may want to ask is the approach adopted by hard science appropriate to deal with qualitative and non-material phenomenon (Although we witness some improvement in this aspect for the past few decades, it is hardly mature).
If you sincerely wish to know about the scientific approach towards past lives, do put it effort to find out more about the research made by Ian Stevenson. Find out more about him, he is well respected. Being a scientist, he knows the limits of science and yet has to work within its constraint to account for these phenomena. Not to brush past lives phenomena away with word like “bullsh.t” without making adequate studies, that is irresponsible and immature. By doing this and in a Buddhist forum, you are mocking others people faith. The sacredness of life cannot be made objective., do not become too mechanical.
Good .I agree with you ,Thusness
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I think you must understand one thingOriginally posted by january:you said it yourself.... therefore we must not believe in past life theory yet until it has really being fully tested, verifiable and concrete enough, so concrete that even the chirstian and other religion believe it...
You set out here with 2 purpose
1.Refute on Karma theory and blah blah blah
2.Want Buddhist teaching to proof to other religion as concrete
you either focus on one or u will never mix and match both
its in Buddha's teaching
we CANNOT expect the whole world to like you ,even you are the American President George Bush
the best is only 50 % .
Likewise we cannot force everyone in the whole world to subscribe to Buddhism.
Other ppl have their own faith and belief system ,if u persue that direction you are being radical .
well ,you can never satisfy what u intend to see the reasoning behind
its like TIME magazine
some like TIME,some like NEWSWEEK ,some like ECONOMIST
does TIME go and force ppl to buy TIME magazine at Newsbooth around the world
No rite
The only way is to improve on content and coverage ,as What TIME does -
The best way to convince people in Buddhism is to practise it in good faith
I am not a good practitioner , more lousier than you ,January
but I always put effort as top priority in my practise
yours sincerely,
bohiruci -
Yes bohiruci,Originally posted by bohiruci:The best way to convince people in Buddhism is to practise it in good faith
My sentiment exactly. If we practice according to what the Blessed One taught, the result will come. -
Hi January,
I re-read my post. Though it may not sound soothing to the ears, take it positively. I have no ill intention.
Trying to forcefully account for non-material phenomenon by hard science is analogous to casting an1-inch-knitted net into an ocean and concludes that no species in the ocean has a size smaller than 1 inch. We have to know the limitation of hard science as we know the limitation of the net. If one chooses to remain blind to these limitations then we have made science into a blind-faith religion. It is the spirit of science that is laudable. What Buddha taught is systematic and the results are clearly stated but an effort to walk the first step must be made to witness the result and that includes past lives experiences. Have an open mind so that you will not miss something valuable. Good luck. -
Haha...the intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply the profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.Originally posted by longchen:Very true...indeed.
January... even if you do not believe in past life... it is fine.
Buddhism, is in fact, very very advanced psychology. It is so advanced that current scientist and researcher have not even scratched what Buddha has found.
If you do not believe in all the mystical stuff... Buddhism can still be seem from a very practical psychological approach.
The joy and bliss of total transparency will make us drop from our chairs (it can take few years)...
Happy Journey. -
Yah... I really appreciate Buddha's depth...Originally posted by Thusness:Haha...the intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply the profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.
I must thank you too... otherwise I may still be stuck at 'I AM' stage now.
regards. -
Originally posted by january:
_/|\_
secondly, let me try to refute the karma theory.... pat lives theories...
you say that if one is handicap, or suffering in this life it means that he has acucumulated bad karma in the past.. so one must alwsy do good to accumulate good karma....
does that mean that if your parent has cancer, then you will think "it must be due to bad karma in the past or his past life so he deserve."
since he deserve it, then you must not do anything to help me.
2) if your friend is in trouble, you think" he must have did something bad in his past or his past life so he is in trouble, therefore i must not help him"
3) if we use the karma theory... should not we ask UNICEF to stop helping the poor countries because these poor countries deserve...
is not all this explanation obvious that the karma theory is rubbish.
i think there's much misunderstanding of karma.
would be best if one can go thru the detail explianation below first and all questions will be solved:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/kamma.htm#Contents
...of the most common error is #1:
Beliefs that are contrary to the law of karma/kamma.
There are three philosophies which are considered by Buddhism to be wrong view and which must be carefully distinguished from the teaching of karma:
1. Pubbekatahetuvada: The belief that all happiness and suffering arise from previous karma(Past-action determinism).
2. Issaranimmanahetuvada: The belief that all happiness and suffering are caused by the directives of a Supreme Being (Theistic determinism).
3. Ahetu-apaccayavada: The belief that all happiness and suffering are random, having no cause (Indeterminism or Accidentalism).
actually karma is not just cause and effect. it's cause, conditions and effect. as cause is like a seed planted in the past. effect is the seed growing to become a tree and bear fruits. while conditions are the factors that helped the growth of the seed/tree, such as sunlights, water, soil etcs. so if the conditions is high, the effect will take place much faster. however if we do no supply sunlight, water or even put concrete to the seed, than the effect will not happen at all.
hence conditions(aka yuan) is more important.
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Good morning January,Originally posted by january:secondly, let me try to refute the karma theory.... pat lives theories...
you say that if one is handicap, or suffering in this life it means that he has acucumulated bad karma in the past.. so one must alwsy do good to accumulate good karma....
does that mean that if your parent has cancer, then you will think "it must be due to bad karma in the past or his past life so he deserve."
since he deserve it, then you must not do anything to help me.
2) if your friend is in trouble, you think" he must have did something bad in his past or his past life so he is in trouble, therefore i must not help him"
3) if we use the karma theory... should not we ask UNICEF to stop helping the poor countries because these poor countries deserve...
is not all this explanation obvious that the karma theory is rubbish.
Just to share some of my views again.
Firstly I believe you have a huge misunderstanding on the idea kamma. Much of the misconception is that you do good, begets good rewards; do bad begets bad rewards. This is often a mixture of the buddhist idea of kamma into mainstream folk-deity-beliefs. Kamma has somehow transform into another force that is judging people. Which is not true at all.
Kamma in Pali means "effect". Kamma is one of the five universal laws that the Buddha had discovered. Venerable S Dhammika had written a book sometime ago titled "All About Buddhism" which explains very clearly the idea of kamma. Now I don't have the book with me so I'll try to explain kamma as much as I can recall and understand.
The whole kamma theory (that you had named) is a process. A process of cause, condition(often people forgets about this factor) and effect.
Now say if this person is handicapped, say due to an accident. Then the cause could be either, he was not mindful of the situation he is in, and given another condition that there was a driver who is not mindful as well, and another supplementary condition is that they cross path. Now the effect will be that this person to be injured and unfortunately turned handicapped. Kamma took place in this scenario is not because anyone had done anything exactly bad, but lack of mindfulness in their action. Now if the former person and the driver would have been more careful and mindful, the cause has changed, even the condition remains, that the two would meet each other, but perhaps the car stops at red light and this person happily crossing the road, no one is injured.
This is kamma.
If my parents have cancer, then probably due to the lifestyle they have led for decades that gives cancer a chance to develop. Take my father for example, he started smoking since the age of 11 but he had quitted smoking when he turned 56 due to an operation. Though he had stayed clean from smoking for near 4 years now, I won't be surprise if (touch wood! touch wood!) he would be caught down by lung cancer. 45 years of hardcore smoking and we can imagine how much damage had he done to his own lungs. Now smoking becomes the cause and the body is the condition. And due to biological law (one of the five universal laws) if the body reacts in a negative way then cancer develops which is the effect.
Yet another example of kamma.
Now if my friend is in trouble, and if I really do treat him/her as a friend, then I should try to help to the best of my abilities. This is what friends are for! Even in the Pali Canon, I can't remember the title but I think there is a short discourse that was said by the Buddha in regards to friendship. How should a friend try to influence his friends in a positive manner. And supporting one another.
The Buddha, motivated by the compassion He had for the world, that He generously spread the Dhamma to people who are fortunate enough to hear from Him (cause). And a large group of this people who became the Buddha's disciples made efforts by been diligence, hardworking, and do a lot of propogation work (condition) which eventually even people living in this time, though may not hear from the Buddha personally, are able to receive the same Dhamma as well (effect). Given the compassionate feature in Buddhism, all the more we should encourage and applaud UNICEF for its good effort in helping poor countries.
No offence but I think your understanding of the kamma theory IS rubbish.
Literally kamma takes place in anything we do. We make a small and harmful lie here and there to boast our own ego now and then. Well it may seems relatively harmless, but it slowly and gradually conditions your mind in "getting used of lying". Which may eventually lead you to big problem. Now this is what the Buddha caution us about, not to allow us in getting used in these bad habits. Now if a person is habitually short tempered, probably this creates an impression in the 8th conscious and in our future rebirths, we may have the tendency(note:it's not determined) of becoming a short tempered person again.
So my understanding of Buddha's teaching about past lives, is one of the explaination on some of our very hard-to-kick habits (be it good or bad ones). Or probably these habits are due to our upbringing from our parents or some incidents that happened between us and our friends which made great impact.
Whichever the case is, the Buddha in His 45 years of ministry was more interested in improving our quality of living by upgrading our spirituality. Kamma definitely is not a determining factor but rather a conditioning factor, changes can take place and these changes, as what the Buddha had taught, should be for the better.
Sad to say, as Buddhism spread to many regions and mixed with various culture, some may seems to have been "degraded" to mere superstitious. But I am interested in what Buddha had taught and not non-buddhistic practices, I won't want to waste my energy and time on those things.
I think you should too. If you genuinely cannot accept kamma and past lives, then move on, Dhamma is a practical thing and I believe given your high intelligence you can certainly find something that is really useful and beneficial to you. -
Yes, the thinking mind will mistake the “Eternal Witness” as the ultimate.Originally posted by longchen:Yah... I really appreciate Buddha's depth...
I must thank you too... otherwise I may still be stuck at 'I AM' stage now.
regards. If without the correct insight and understanding of our emptiness nature, somehow the thinking mind is able to ‘sway’ the experience into thinking ‘No-Self’ as the absence of personality and ego. It is this ‘personality’ or Ego, the totality of all our cultural makeup, that does not exist; but that Reality behind all forms, thinking, mental formations and feelings is very real; it is the ultimate background of all existence. This is false and in Buddhism, this is the “big Self” that should be eliminated through the experience of non-duality (anatta). Our pristine nature is not what the linear mode of reasoning can understanding. However “seeing in raw” does not necessary lead to the experience of true non-duality; the experience of “AMness” is also a very crucial condition. Together with the realization of 'the sense of self is not the doer of action.' , then the conditions are ready. They are all part of the progress.
The dark nights described by Dharma Dan are very real for many reasons but then it still depends on one’s conditions. I experienced most of the problems. It took me more than 9 months to overcome them. This self-claim Arahat is truly experience, he has all my respects! All is still due to the propensities of the “Self’, they are working at a very subtle level. It is not detectable at the conscious level and it is for this that I must commend you for not being misled by the non-dual experience. You are mindful that the karmic patterns still hover around. This is very important. Deeper insight must come from understanding how consciousness works. It is not at the conscious level alone. So deep are these propensities then even with the non-dual experience that is so clear and vivid, the propensities still persist and manifest from moment to moment. They do not go even after death. It is these patterns that we must be aware. Once rooted, they cannot be easily overcome. The antidote is to habituate the non-dual insight deep down into our consciousness. Do not push yourself too hard but make more regular meditations. It is not easy to submerge entirely into the luminous-bliss of arising and dissolving from moment to moment in day to day working life. Though you can’t completely fuse the experience into daily working life, you will still be authenticated.
Saw some of your posts in other forums. Not many will understand your experience even in the mystic circle, just let it be. Happy Journey. -
Yah... thanks againOriginally posted by Thusness:Yes, the thinking mind will mistake the “Eternal Witness” as the ultimate. If without the correct insight and understanding of our emptiness nature, somehow the thinking mind is able to ‘sway’ the experience into thinking ‘No-Self’ as the absence of personality and ego. It is this ‘personality’ or Ego, the totality of all our cultural makeup, that does not exist; but that Reality behind all forms, thinking, mental formations and feelings is very real; it is the ultimate background of all existence. This is false and in Buddhism, this is the “big Self” that should be eliminated through the experience of non-duality (anatta). Our pristine nature is not what the linear mode of reasoning can understanding. However “seeing in raw” does not necessary lead to the experience of true non-duality; the experience of “AMness” is also a very crucial condition. Together with the realization of 'the sense of self is not the doer of action.' , then the conditions are ready. They are all part of the progress.
The dark nights described by Dharma Dan are very real for many reasons but then it still depends on one’s conditions. I experienced most of the problems. It took me more than 9 months to overcome them. This self-claim Arahat is truly experience, he has all my respects! All is still due to the propensities of the “Self’, they are working at a very subtle level. It is not detectable at the conscious level and it is for this that I must commend you for not being misled by the non-dual experience. You are mindful that the karmic patterns still hover around. This is very important. Deeper insight must come from understanding how consciousness works. It is not at the conscious level alone. So deep are these propensities then even with the non-dual experience that is so clear and vivid, the propensities still persist and manifest from moment to moment. They do not go even after death. It is these patterns that we must be aware. Once rooted, they cannot be easily overcome. The antidote is to habituate the non-dual insight deep down into our consciousness. Do not push yourself too hard but make more regular meditations. It is not easy to submerge entirely into the luminous-bliss of arising and dissolving from moment to moment in day to day working life. Though you can’t completely fuse the experience into daily working life, you will still be authenticated.
Thusness.
I am bracing myself for the coming Dark Nights.
Yah... This is so true... I think, sometimes, keep my mouth shut is better.
Saw some of your posts in other forums. Not many will understand your experience even in the mystic circle, just let it be. Happy Journey.
regards -
which stage are dark nights?