Why meditate?
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Yesterday I asked if someone wants to join me in a meditation class by my dharma teacher this weekend (which means tomorrow).. he said,
but i just cant imagine me sitting down, in a relaxed and calm manner! my mind would be drifting in all directions, thinking that my time could be "better spent" in other areas
I did reply a little but felt my reply to him was inadequate I am posting this in a more elaborate way and hope that if any meditators have anything to add on, please do.
Firstly I believe what he said is a very common perception must be the top reason why people are unwilling to learn and practise meditation. Due to their numerous misconceptions about meditation, they are unable to see the benefits that meditation may bring. They somehow perceive it as a 'boring activity' or they imagine 'I will never be able to calm down' or that they may have to face an hour of the spinning of their minds on neurotic content (i.e how screwed up his life was) that have accelerated like the turbine of a jet engine on full throttle. All these are due to not having properly practised meditation -- spending an hour on the butt not meditating but engrossed in his neurotic stories of his life. Or his mind keeps thinking that he wants to do something else or plan what to do next. The problems of an agitated mind are of a very initial stage.
If one can truly practise meditation even at the beginning stages of meditation he will soon be able to witness an enormous decrease in mental activities and tensions. He will be able to enter a state of deep calmness and tranquility and joy, the joy not being the kind of joy we experience in exciting situations but the joy of well-beingness, stillness, clarity -- coming from the letting go of mind and body. Contrary to what one may expect, meditation can be very enjoyable. If you find sleeping relaxing, you will find meditation even more relaxing than sleeping because it gives the mind a much needed rest from the incessant mental activities. Sleep cannot even provide this since there is still mental activities and dreams going on during sleep. In sleep we rest our body but the mind is not quite at rest. In meditation, both mind and body are at rest. (However, meditation should not be used to replace sleep for biological purposes, and a moderate amount of sleep generally helps meditation practise)
When one gets deeper into meditation all the gross mental activities will subside naturally -- like during sleep. Even if you are very engrossed in mental activities and is attached to certain things in life, if you are willing to meditate properly, you will definitely be able to go beyond all these. Don't think it's not possible before you try it. For example, even if you have been thinking much, or is attached to certain things, eventually these thoughts will give way to sleep and all that you have been thinking is forgotten (temporarily). Similarly in meditation, mental noise will give way to meditative absorption, if you practise properly for a period of time. The difference is that one loses consciousness during sleep, whereas in meditation one's consciousness remains lucid, furthermore, we train strong mindfulness in order to develope insights (leading to Enlightenment) and also to develope calmness. So to conclude, there is no reason to believe at all that anyone who can sleep cannot do meditation successfully.
If we are able to meditate on a regular basis, these meditative qualities will be easily brought into our daily living. So do not be discouraged if at an initial stage you feel like your mind is out of control, or let these things discourage you from meditating further. The key is regular and serious practise - and practise the correct way. For a beginners it is recommended to at least meditate 30 minutes for each session since a beginner may need more time to stabilise.
Next, when one manages to stabilise his mind and decrease the level of mental activities, he may experience a state of stillness. But any sense of 'stillness' is still a form of image due to grasping, and there is a subtle sense of self that is feeling stillness, which is dualistic. Reality however is ever flowing, never stopping even for a moment. If we are to cling to any particular state, one must apply sharp mindfulness to break through that state. Any subtle attachment to any feelings - even of stillness - means he is still a distance away from enlightenment. I recall how my taiwanese teacher has warned about subtle grasping on 'Fa3 Xiang4' in practise, meaning, grasping on any form of image. Even of 'stillness' - if one feels 'I am in a state of stillness', one is deviated. He said a true practitioner never abides and grasp on anything and will constantly use mindfulness to break through all states of attachments and images (fa3 xiang4) even at a subtle level, that practitioner will advance quickly and be able to awaken faster.
So what is true stillness?Thusness: clarity, vitality and intelligence are every flowing...
Thusness: what is the meaning of stillness?
Me: stillness of mind?
Thusness: what does that mean?
Me: tranquil calmness?
Thusness: means simply don't hold!
Me: orh icic
Thusness: and flow!
Me: oic..
Thusness: don't do anything, don't grasp, don't hold...
Thusness: this is stilling...
Thusness: don't get confused by terms.
Me: icic
Thusness: when we practice, we know intuitively and the meaning becomes clearer. -
I realised I haven't directly answered the question 'Why meditate?'
Here is a good article (and in fact a good book as well, called Mindfulness in Plain English): http://www.budsas.org/%7Eanson/ebud/mfneng/mind1-4.htm
Chapter 1
Meditation: Why Bother?
Meditation is not easy. It takes time and it takes energy. It also takes grit, determination and discipline. It requires a host of personal qualities which we normally regard as unpleasant and which we like to avoid whenever possible. We can sum it all up in the American word 'gumption'. Meditation takes 'gumption'. It is certainly a great deal easier just to kick back and watch television. So why bother? Why waste all that time and energy when you could be out enjoying yourself? Why bother? Simple. Because you are human. And just because of the simple fact that you are human, you find yourself heir to an inherent unsatisfactoriness in life which simply will not go away. You can suppress it from your awareness for a time. You can distract yourself for hours on end, but it always comes back--usually when you least expect it. All of a sudden, seemingly out of the blue, you sit up, take stock, and realize your actual situation in life.
There you are, and you suddenly realize that you are spending your whole life just barely getting by. You keep up a good front. You manage to make ends meed somehow and look OK from the outside. But those periods of desperation, those times when you feel everything caving in on you, you keep those to yourself. You are a mess. And you know it. But you hide it beautifully. Meanwhile, way down under all that you just know there has got be some other way to live, some better way to look at the world, some way to touch life more fully. You click into it by chance now and then. You get a good job. You fall in love. You win the game. and for a while, things are different. Life takes on a richness and clarity that makes all the bad times and humdrum fade away. The whole texture of your experience changes and you say to yourself, "OK, now I've made it; now I will be happy". But then that fades, too, like smoke in the wind. You are left with just a memory. That and a vague awareness that something is wrong.
But there is really another whole realm of depth and sensitivity available in life, somehow, you are just not seeing it. You wind up feeling cut off. You feel insulated from the sweetness of experience by some sort of sensory cotton. You are not really touching life. You are not making it again. And then even that vague awareness fades away, and you are back to the same old reality. The world looks like the usual foul place, which is boring at best. It is an emotional roller coaster, and you spend a lot of your time down at the bottom of the ramp, yearning for the heights.
So what is wrong with you? Are you a freak? No. You are just human. And you suffer from the same malady that infects every human being. It is a monster in side all of us, and it has many arms: Chronic tension, lack of genuine compassion for others, including the people closest to you, feelings being blocked up, and emotional deadness. Many, many arms. None of us is entirely free from it. We may deny it. We try to suppress it. We build a whole culture around hiding from it, pretending it is not there, and distracting ourselves from it with goals and projects and status. But it never goes away. It is a constant undercurrent in every thought and every perception; a little wordless voice at the back of the head saying, "Not good enough yet. Got to have more. Got to make it better. Got to be better." It is a monster, a monster that manifests everywhere in subtle forms.
Go to a party. Listen to the laughter, that brittle-tongued voice that says fun on the surface and fear underneath. Feel the tension, feel the pressure. Nobody really relaxes. They are faking it. Go to a ball game. Watch the fan in the stand. Watch the irrational fit of anger. Watch the uncontrolled frustration bubbling forth from people that masquerades under the guise of enthusiasm, or team spirit. Booing, cat-calls and unbridled egotism in the name of team loyalty. Drunkenness, fights in the stands. These are the people trying desperately to release tension from within. These are not people who are at peace with themselves. Watch the news on TV. Listen to the lyrics in popular songs. You find the same theme repeated over and over in variations. Jealousy, suffering, discontent and stress.
Life seems to be a perpetual struggle, some enormous effort against staggering odds. And what is our solution to all this dissatisfaction? We get stuck in the ' If only' syndrome. If only I had more money, then I would be happy. If only I can find somebody who really loves me, if only I can lose 20 pounds, if only I had a color TV, Jacuzzi, and curly hair, and on and on forever. So where does all this junk come from and more important, what can we do about it? It comes from the conditions of our own minds. It is deep, subtle and pervasive set of mental habits, a Gordian knot which we have built up bit by bit and we can unravel just the same way, one piece at a time. We can tune up our awareness, dredge up each separate piece and bring it out into the light. We can make the unconscious conscious, slowly, one piece at a time.
The essence of our experience is change. Change is incessant. Moment by moment life flows by and it is never the same. Perpetual alteration is the essence of the perceptual universe. A thought springs up in you head and half a second later, it is gone. In comes another one, and that is gone too. A sound strikes your ears and then silence. Open your eyes and the world pours in, blink and it is gone. People come into your life and they leave again. Friends go, relatives die. Your fortunes go up and they go down. Sometimes you win and just as often you lose. It is incessant: change, change, change. No two moments ever the same.
There is not a thing wrong with this. It is the nature of the universe. But human culture has taught u some odd responses to this endless flowing. We categorize experiences. We try to stick each perception, every mental change in this endless flow into one of three mental pigeon holes. It is good, or it is bad, or it is neutral. Then, according to which box we stick it in, we perceive with a set of fixed habitual mental responses. If a particular perception has been labeled 'good', then we try to freeze time right there. We grab onto that particular thought, we fondle it, we hold it, we try to keep it from escaping. When that does not work, we go all-out in an effort to repeat the experience which caused that thought. Let us call this mental habit 'grasping'.
Over on the other side of the mind lies the box labeled 'bad'. When we perceive something 'bad', we try to push it away. We try to deny it, reject it, get rid of it any way we can. We fight against our own experience. We run from pieces of ourselves. Let us call this mental habit 'rejecting'. Between these two reactions lies the neutral box. Here we place the experiences which are neither good nor bad. They are tepid, neutral, uninteresting and boring. We pack experience away in the neutral box so that we can ignore it and thus return jour attention to where the action is, namely our endless round of desire and aversion. This category of experience gets robbed of its fair share of our attention. Let us call this mental habit 'ignoring'. The direct result of all this lunacy is a perpetual treadmill race to nowhere, endlessly pounding after pleasure, endlessly fleeing from pain, endlessly ignoring 90 percent of our experience. Than wondering why life tastes so flat. In the final analysis, it's a system that does not work. -
No matter how hard you pursue pleasure and success, there are times when you fail. No matter how fast you flee, there are times when pain catches up with you. And in between those times, life is so boring you could scream. Our minds are full of opinions and criticisms. We have built walls all around ourselves and we are trapped with the prison of our own lies and dislikes. We suffer.
Suffering is big word in Buddhist thought. It is a key term and it should be thoroughly understood. The Pali word is 'dukkha', and it does not just mean the agony of the body. It means the deep, subtle sense of unsatisfactoriness which is a part of every mental treadmill. The essence of life is suffering, said the Buddha. At first glance this seems exceedingly morbid and pessimistic. It even seems untrue. After all, there are plenty of times when we are happy. Aren't there? No, there are not. It just seems that way. Take any moment when you feel really fulfilled and examine it closely. Down under the joy, you will find that subtle, all-pervasive undercurrent of tension, that no matter how great the moment is, it is going to end. No matter how much you just gained, you are either going to lose some of it or spend the rest of your days guarding what you have got and scheming how to get more. And in the end, you are going to die. In the end, you lose everything. It is all transitory.
Sounds pretty bleak, doesn't it? Luckily it's not; not at all. It only sounds bleak when you view it from the level of ordinary mental perspective, the very level at which the treadmill mechanism operates. Down under that level lies another whole perspective, a completely different way to look at the universe. It is a level of functioning where the mind does not try to freeze time, where we do not grasp onto our experience as it flows by, where we do not try to block things out and ignore them. It is a level of experience beyond good and bad, beyond pleasure and pain. It is a lovely way to perceive the world, and it is a learnable skill. It is not easy, but is learnable.
Happiness and peace. Those are really the prime issues in human existence. That is what all of us are seeking. This often is a bit hard to see because we cover up those basic goals with layers of surface objectives. We want food, we want money, we want sex, possessions and respect. We even say to ourselves that the idea of 'happiness' is too abstract: "Look, I am practical. Just give me enough money and I will buy all the happiness I need". Unfortunately, this is an attitude that does not work. Examine each of these goals and you will find they are superficial. You want food. Why? Because I am hungry. So you are hungry, so what? Well if I eat, I won't be hungry and then I'll feel good. Ah ha! Feel good! Now there is a real item. What we really seek is not the surface goals. They are just means to an end. What we are really after is the feeling of relief that comes when the drive is satisfied. Relief, relaxation and an end to the tension. Peace, happiness, no more yearning.
So what is this happiness? For most of us, the perfect happiness would mean getting everything we wanted, being in control of everything, playing Caesar, making the whole world dance a jig according to our every whim. Once again, it does not work that way. Take a look at the people in history who have actually held this ultimate power. These were not happy people. Most assuredly they were not men at peace with themselves. Why? Because they were driven to control the world totally and absolutely and they could not. They wanted to control all men and there remained men who refused to be controlled. They could not control the stars. They still got sick. They still had to die.
You can't ever get everything you want. It is impossible. Luckily, there is another option. You can learn to control your mind, to step outside of this endless cycle of desire and aversion. You can learn to not want what you want, to recognize desires but not be controlled by them. This does not mean that you lie down on the road and invite everybody to walk all over you . It means that you continue to live a very normal-looking life, but live from a whole new viewpoint. You do the things that a person must do, but you are free from that obsessive, compulsive drivenness of your own desires. You want something, but you don't need to chase after it. You fear something, but you don't need to stand there quaking in your boots. This sort of mental culture is very difficult. It takes years. But trying to control everything is impossible, and the difficult is preferable to the impossible.
Wait a minute, though. Peace and happiness! Isn't that what civilization is all about? We build skyscrapers and freeways. We have paid vacations, TV sets. We provide free hospitals and sick leaves, Social Security and welfare benefits. All of that is aimed at providing some measure of peace and happiness. Yet the rate of mental illness climbs steadily, and the crime rates rise faster. The streets are crawling with delinquents and unstable individuals. Stick you arms outside the safety of your own door and somebody is very likely to steal your watch! Something is not working. A happy man does not feel driven to kill. We like to think that our society is exploiting every area of human knowledge in order to achieve peace and happiness.
We are just beginning to realize that we have overdeveloped the material aspect of existence at the expense of the deeper emotional and spiritual aspect, and we are paying the price for that error. It is one thing to talk about degeneration of moral and spiritual fiber in America today, and another thing to do something about it. The place to start is within ourselves. Look carefully inside, truly and objectively, and each of us will see moments when "I am the punk" and "I am the crazy". We will learn to see those moments, see them clearly, cleanly and without condemnation, and we will be on our way up and out of being so. -
You can't make radical changes in the pattern of your life until you begin to see yourself exactly as you are now. As soon as you do that, changes flow naturally. You don't have to force or struggle or obey rules dictated to you by some authority. You just change. It is automatic. But arriving at the initial insight is quite a task. You've got to see who you are and how you are, without illusion, judgement or resistance of any kind. You've got to see your own place in society and your function as a social being. You've got to see your duties and obligations to your fellow human beings, and above all, your responsibility to yourself as an individual living with other individuals. And you've got to see all of that clearly and as a unit, a single gestalt of interrelationship. It sounds complex, but it often occurs in a single instant. Mental culture through meditation is without rival in helping you achieve this sort of understanding and serene happiness.
The Dhammapada is an ancient Buddhist text which anticipated Freud by thousands of years. It says: "What you are now is the result of what you were. What you will be tomorrow will be the result of what you are now. The consequences of an evil mind will follow you like the cart follows the ox that pulls it. The consequences of a purified mind will follow you like you own shadow. No one can do more for you than your own purified mind-- no parent, no relative, no friend, no one. A well-disciplined mind brings happiness".
Meditation is intended to purify the mind. It cleanses the thought process of what can be called psychic irritants, things like greed, hatred and jealousy, things that keep you snarled up in emotional bondage. It brings the mind to a state of tranquility and awareness, a state of concentration and insight.
In our society, we are great believers in education. We believe that knowledge makes a cultured person civilized. Civilization, however, polishes the person superficially. Subject our noble and sophisticated gentleman to stresses of war or economic collapse, and see what happens. It is one thing to obey the law because you know the penalties and fear the consequences. It is something else entirely to obey the law because you have cleansed yourself from the greed that would make you steal and the hatred that would make you kill. Throw a stone into a stream. The running water would smooth the surface, but the inner part remains unchanged. Take that same stone and place it in the intense fires of a forge, and the whole stone changes inside and outside. It all melts. Civilization changes man on the outside. Meditation softens him within, through and through.
Meditation is called the Great Teacher. It is the cleansing crucible fire that works slowly through understanding. The greater your understanding, the more flexible and tolerant you can be. The greater your understanding, the more compassionate you can be. You become like a perfect parent or an ideal teacher. You are ready to forgive and forget. You feel love towards others because you understand them. And you understand others because you have understood yourself. You have looked deeply inside and seen self illusion and your own human failings. You have seen your own humanity and learned to forgive and to love. When you have learned compassion for yourself, compassion for others is automatic. An accomplished meditator has achieved a profound understanding of life, and he inevitably relates to the world with a deep and uncritical love.
Meditation is a lot like cultivating a new land. To make a field out of a forest, fist you have to clear the trees and pull out the stumps. Then you till the soil and you fertilize it. Then you sow your seed and you harvest your crops. To cultivate your mind, first you have to clear out the various irritants that are in the way, pull them right out by the root so that they won't grow back. Then you fertilize. You pump energy and discipline in the mental soil. Then you sow the seed and you harvest your crops of faith, morality , mindfulness and wisdom.
Faith and morality, by the way, have a special meaning in this context. Buddhism does not advocate faith in the sense of believing something because it is written in a book or attributed to a prophet or taught to you by some authority figure. The meaning here is closer to confidence. It is knowing that something is true because you have seen it work, because you have observed that very thing within yourself. In the same way, morality is not a ritualistic obedience to some exterior, imposed code of behavior.
The purpose of meditation is personal transformation. The you that goes in one side of the meditation experience is not the same you that comes out the other side. It changes your character by a process of sensitization, by making you deeply aware of your own thoughts, word, and deeds. Your arrogance evaporated and your antagonism dries up. Your mind becomes still and calm. And your life smoothes out. Thus meditation properly performed prepares you to meet the ups and down of existence. It reduces your tension, your fear, and your worry. Restlessness recedes and passion moderates. Things begin to fall into place and your life becomes a glide instead of a struggle. All of this happens through understanding.
Meditation sharpens your concentration and your thinking power. Then, piece by piece, your own subconscious motives and mechanics become clear to you. Your intuition sharpens. The precision of your thought increases and gradually you come to a direct knowledge of things as they really are, without prejudice and without illusion. So is this reason enough to bother? Scarcely. These are just promises on paper. There is only one way you will ever know if meditation is worth the effort. Learn to do it right, and do it. See for yourself. -
Hi AnEternalNow and Thusness,
Are you guys not doing these people a disservice by encouraging the search?
When you encourage the search you are encouraging them to identify with their story.
Rather, tell them to stop, no more searching, no more meditating.
Give them nothing to hold onto.
But they could read this:
What are Self-Realization, Awakening, Liberation, and Enlightenment?
If you're tired of looking and want to stop, read "Clarity" by Nathan Gill.
You are the One Self, Awareness Itself.
Stop for a moment right now, and notice this presence of awareness that you are—here and now. Notice that you are spacious, open, awake and free. Notice that these words are arising in this spacious openness that you are. Notice that all of the activities of the mind, the seeking and suffering, the resistance and attachments, the stories and dramas all play out in you—this spacious, open presence of awareness.
This peaceful, loving, spacious openness is what you are. This spacious openness is the Self, the Liberation, the Awakening, the Enlightenment, the Peace and the Love for which youÂ’ve been seeking. You have always been, and always will be simply THIS.
It's apparent that you already are this witnessing presence; you are the Self. You know this from your own direct experience. Everywhere you go; there you are as this witnessing presence. Right now you are this freedom, this liberation, this awakening, this enlightenment.
There is nothing mystical about your presence as awareness—you just are. Notice it now.
There can be a tendency to ‘spiritualize’ or ‘mystify’ this simple presence of awareness that is always here and now, especially after having what could be called life-changing experiences, realizations and epiphanies. You are always this simple witnessing presence. Sometimes you witness what seem to be mystical experiences, and other times the mundane, but you are always this simple witnessing presence—peaceful and free.
All there is, is This—there’s nothing else.
There's nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become.
This is all there is.
All there ever was is This.
All there ever will be is This.
There is nothing else—just This.
Nothing mystical. Nothing mundane.
Just This.
And You are This.
My interest in communicating this message is to de-mystify the concepts of Awakening, Liberation, Self-Realization, and Enlightenment. And to share the fact that it's possible to be free of psychological suffering, and free of spiritual seeking.
My approach is to share my direct experience, and to speak from the heart about what I have found to be true. And IÂ’m finding that those who stop for a moment, consider the suggestions offered, and apply them to their own direct experience are finding themselves free of psychological suffering and spiritual seeking.
You may notice that the message being shared here is shockingly simple. And possibly for that reason, those who have keenly developed intellects tend to overlook the obvious, and continue exercising their intellect with never-ending questions, doubts, and ‘Yes, buts!’ So the appearance of suffering and seeking goes on.
If you stop for a few moments and look to your own direct experience for the answers, you may be surprised how quickly and easily psychological suffering and spiritual seeking come to an end. If your interest is in being free of psychological suffering and free of the outrageous myths of enlightenment, then look to your own direct experience for answers to the fundamental questions posed here. It is this simple.
Being free of psychological suffering and spiritual seeking does not require years of spiritual practice, meditation, faith, trust, understanding of complex religious philosophies, or a keenly developed intellect. Psychological suffering and your spiritual search come to an end by seeing in your own direct experience that what you are in essence is simply awareness, and that nothing can trouble you but imagination.
http://livinginpeace-thenaturalstate.com/
http://www.nathangill.com/ -
Thanks for sharing.. but I believe meditation does has its good purpose.
I posted this in Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror (Part 2)
..However that is from the viewpoint of 'Wu2 Wei2 Fa3' (the dharma of non-action), because most of us are not able to reach that level due to our deep latent karmic tendencies, the Buddha taught countless expedient means and practises and 'You3 Wei2 Fa3' that we should practise, and can practise easier. Why? Karmic strength and tendencies are like the fuel of the car. My teacher mentioned that it is impossible to stop the car immediately, even if you stopped stepping the Gas the car has a certain momentum before it can stop. Therefore it is important to gain strength, and this is made possible by the expedient ways of the numerous dharmas that the Buddha taught...
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I agree that from the ultimate 'view' there is no need to search for anything because our true nature is already complete and always is so.. we neither gain more Buddha Nature when we awaken, neither do we lose any Buddha Nature while in ignorance. And the moment we try to seek something, we are deluded. However I also think we cannot underestimate the karmic propensities of sentient beings.
Secondly, tranquil calmness, stilling the body is important. It serves as strength for later development and breaking karmic propensities. My local dharma teacher did not practise meditation after her 'self-realisation' about 20 years ago, she would rather as what you are pointing out maintain 'choiceless awareness' in daily living until about recently 5 years ago my taiwanese teacher (in charge of transmitting important dharmas under my master's organisation) asked her to start meditating to develope deeper levels of samadhi. Because even after a true experience/realisation, one still needs to gather strength. And also I recall my taiwanese teacher said something like we may think that during daily life we are in samadhi, but we can miss the subtlety and is not the deep samadhi that is attained through serious meditation practise.
I heard that my taiwanese teacher meditates up to 6 hours a day (i believe he splits into a few sessions, and is partly because he has more time to himself now that he has moved out of his house to live in his dharma center). My dharma teacher more recently also gave advise to all who received/heard the dharma from my taiwanese teacher to practise meditation regularly, perhaps 30 minutes everyday.
Thusness said a few months ago:(6:58 PM) Me:
is stilling our mind considered shamatha?:
(6:59 PM) Thusness: not exactly but it can be by any practices as long as it lead us to the experience of this calmness
(6:59 PM) Thusness: mindfulness of breath
(6:59 PM) Thusness: or mindfulness itself or chanting
(6:59 PM) Thusness: one must experience this calmness first.
(6:59 PM) Me:
oic..
(6:59 PM) Thusness: because it is the 'ground' that strengthen other experience
(6:59 PM) Me:
icic
(7:00 PM) Thusness: however some ppl are vested with the conditions to experience the end-result first, then they have to return to these practices to stabilize the experience.
(7:00 PM) Me:
oic..
(7:00 PM) Thusness: like experiencing our buddha nature directly.
(7:00 PM) Me:
icic
(7:01 PM) Thusness: then the entire life becomes the unfolding and understand of this experience. -
May i asked: In shamatha practise, one will need mindfulness to bring wandering thought back to an object or chanting or breathing. Eventually, when one attention is solely only on that object. There is no grasping and holding onto a concept or self or anything and Just it.
May i verify this with my understanding on shamatha practise?
While in insight meditation, it requires both mindfulness and concentration.
My little and newbie experience is that i started to watch things as it is. As i start to watch things as it is, there isnt any formation of a thought by a self; There is arising and fleeting away of feelings, memories, sensation. Sometime, there is an association with a self, particulary with memories which could trigger other emotions too.
I had actually mispractised by holding onto state of the mind and concepts. It was after some suffering and attending a talk held by venerable, i began to understand deeper and better.
After watching the mind as it is, I feel much calmer< a conducive condition for wisdom to arise mah? It isn't just a calming state, the mind is less clouded with "personal stuffs". Actually, should i say, it is becos the mind is less cluttered that why it is calming.
so may i ask how will wisdom arise from all these observance to strike a realisation deep into your mind? Through further development of the four foundation of mindfulness? Deeper concentration and awareness of the subtle matters?
My understanding in this meditation is little. So please read it with discernment. In insight meditation, there is pervading awareness of all things. One is mindful and concentrated at the same time where one isn't lost in the thought. The self is not in control and by letting go is in control.
Since 'stillness' refer to go with the flow, not grasping and holding on. In shamatha practise, there isnt really a flow in the end when one-pointedness concentration is achieved??
So does shamatha meditation lead to this stillness of the mind?
Does insight meditation lead to this stillness of the mind?
Oh by the way, i need formal instruction on insight meditation...
i feel my knowledge is so limited.
/* sorry i keep changing.. just trying to refine what i wana to say and ask*/ -
please correct me.
i noticed in stillness there's still this "witnessing of stillness". it's like a preview more than a realisation which i feel as long as i am aware of it is still not truly absorbed into any non-dualistic state.
i also noted that this witnessing, as time goes by with practices, it is possible for a meditator to be completely let go of perception and eventually arrive at what been said as "pure" untainted, complete beingness or what you all here say pressence without any identity or form to associate with. i believe the kind of tranquility and blissfulness is not ordinarily found described in dictionaries.
please correct me. i'm still practicing on my own. i'm open to all.
so what do i do?
just keep on practicing is it? -
btw interesting thread..Originally posted by JonLS:Hi AnEternalNow and Thusness,
Are you guys not doing these people a disservice by encouraging the search?
When you encourage the search you are encouraging them to identify with their story.
Rather, tell them to stop, no more searching, no more meditating.
Give them nothing to hold onto.
But they could read this:
If you're tired of looking and want to stop, read "Clarity" by Nathan Gill.
http://www.nathangill.com/
i feel calm when reading the posting.
However, i think the experience has to be stablised. The calmness will go away after a few moments when my mind isn't there and at somewhere else..
just wana add that some people might be awaken by the truth written on it and even retaining it, not in a form of memorising it but in the form of wisdom where it will arised when needed. This depends on the condition available for people to be awaken by it.
oh this is my 2 cent of thought. Please read with discernment. Thanks -
i'm not sure and not very good in technical terms. i don't seek anymore.
i'd like to share abit of my usual practice.
when i shut my eyes and settle down with breathing, i collect the wandering mind from all over the place and arrive put into one piece and space. such collectiveness leads me to stability then to calmness. each time i let go my breath, i let go myself. it can go on and on until i don't notice at all. although i'm still aware of my surroundings at this point, i don't seem to be carried away with anything. even when doors slammed or something banged with loud sound, i was not startled. this so called cocoon that wraps around keeps me up and awake, dis-associate and yet aware of everything flowing naturally freely with everything, (like multi-tasking
) without holding on to anything nor resisting. this to me not only be in meditation but can be applied in daily lives which i learnt and it works for me. rising and falling is part and parcel just like the door that slammed. i feel that for a beginner like myself, it helps to focuss on something to bring forward to stabilty and calmness but eventually they still pass ie breathing. a good track to keep in line with. as for wisdom, i'm not sure how to gain or have wisdom but at some point of time, we will do things with sane common sense and intuition that leads us to think right, act right, speak right. to me i feel compassion works hand in hand with wisdom. without the former the latter is null. there was once i tried meditating on compassion and ended crying during meditation. wow didn't expect that kind of impact it can cause me. there are many kinds of meditation but i believe that the foundation is still the calmess and stability - cos it can lead on to further progress. i believe that the stage will become harder as it goes in deeper. so for me now as a beginner, i'm still stabilising my samadhi because i cannot confront or resist that will cause unhealthy practice that might take long time to recover. if in future if i wanna expand my compassion to others to guide others i must 1st polish myself and learn the right way. -
Hi JonLS,
Merry X'Mas!
Right into the deepest depth of beingness,
.
. (stories)
.
All there is, is This—there’s nothing else! (Period.)
The rest are stories.
There's nowhere to go, nothing to do, nothing to become.
This is all there is.
All there ever was is This.
All there ever will be is This.
There is nothing else—just This.
Nothing mystical. Nothing mundane.
Just This.
And You are This. (Biger stories.)
.
. (stories)
.
Beyond concious and and pre-conscious layer,
Deeper than the depth of karmic momentum.
No words and no justifications.
Completely Free , nothing undone!
-
There is also another topic in the forum that I would like to relate here... Non-dual and karmic patterns created by longchen.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi AnEternalNow and Thusness,
Are you guys not doing these people a disservice by encouraging the search?
When you encourage the search you are encouraging them to identify with their story.
Rather, tell them to stop, no more searching, no more meditating.
Give them nothing to hold onto.
But they could read this:
If you're tired of looking and want to stop, read "Clarity" by Nathan Gill.
http://www.nathangill.com/
Exerpt:
From what I learnt from Thusness... Non-duality needs to be experienced not only in the conscious level but also the pre conscious level... then conscious and pre-conscious can fuse into one. Remember what I mentioned what Thusness said before about Tony Parsons? Although non-duality is experienced, he overlooked karmic conditions. When no-self is experienced, one naturally just liberates and let go. The mental activities of holding and grasping of a 'self' seemed to subside automatically, but this is far from truth.Originally posted by Thusness:It is a matter of how deep the experience of non-dual has penetrated into our consciousness. At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the ‘Self’ consciousness does not surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions are still there. The afflicted consciousness is the habitual propensities of ‘self’ that is deeply rooted and works at the pre-conscious level. The experience of non-duality will not be able to overcome and eliminate these stronger afflictions until we have habituated ourselves to this understanding at the deeper level of our consciousness.
At this juncture, a practitioner will experience the first 4 factors of enlightenment quite clearly, that is, there will be mindfulness, investigative, joy and rapture but tranquility, concentration and equanimity isnÂ’t strong yet. The first 4 factors will result a sense of radiance bright, lightness, free, clear, vivid and energetic feeling but the settledness, sereneness and calmness will not be that obviously felt. It is here where one will experience the dark night of what Dharma Dan described. Contrary to what that is being thought, one may even feel more lustful due to the new found energy. But somehow the non-dual experience also has the strength to pull us back from falling further (you may experienced it in some synchronic events that serve as reminders) and eventually lead us to the experience of equanimity. You may want to find out whyÂ…?
Lastly hee…Having said that much, it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising.
At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the ‘Self’ consciousness does not surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions are still there. This level is depicted in the 3 diagrams that I have drawn in Longchen's topic, the second one with a dotted circle, after the cracked mirror.
One must soon come to realisation of the deeper layer of consciousness, the more subtle aspects that continue to manifest when conditions are there. Once we are sincere and not fall into the trapped of no-self (not attached to it) and go further, we will soon realise the latent tendencies and the strength of it. A practitioner who knows how consciousness works knows the difficulties of uprooting these afflictions from the deeper layer and is always careful of what is being planted.
What is described in Nathan Gill's story is similar to the 'dark nights'. Fortunately longchen understands true non-duality and karmic propensities.. and so his case will not be so serious. -
Yes there are such stages and experience.. but no truly gone beyond dualistic.Originally posted by paperflower:please correct me.
i noticed in stillness there's still this "witnessing of stillness". it's like a preview more than a realisation which i feel as long as i am aware of it is still not truly absorbed into any non-dualistic state.
i also noted that this witnessing, as time goes by with practices, it is possible for a meditator to be completely let go of perception and eventually arrive at what been said as "pure" untainted, complete beingness or what you all here say pressence without any identity or form to associate with. i believe the kind of tranquility and blissfulness is not ordinarily found described in dictionaries.
please correct me. i'm still practicing on my own. i'm open to all.
so what do i do?
just keep on practicing is it?
Of course.. we have to keep on practicing (all the way to perfect enlightenment!) -
hhaha... ok thank you, i should have known. as good as not asking at allOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes there are such stages and experience.. but no truly gone beyond dualistic.
Of course.. we have to keep on practicing (all the way to perfect enlightenment!) 
maybe my practice will most likely continue in pregnancy state. with hormone changes and body fatigue and the anticipating labour pain to go through, it will bring me to new grounds on how i am going to apply what i have learnt so far. so can you also tell me how to practice non-duality at such stage and any "manual" to follow?
thanks in advance. i'll be away for a short while but will check back any advice and guidance. -
Yes mindfulness is required in both Shamatha and Insight practise. Shamatha is merely a form of concentration and absorption in a particular object of meditation... to a state of one pointedness or samadhi.Originally posted by Isis:May i asked: In shamatha practise, one will need mindfulness to bring wandering thought back to an object or chanting or breathing. Eventually, when one attention is solely only on that object. There is no grasping and holding onto a concept or self or anything and Just it.
May i verify this with my understanding on shamatha practise?
While in insight meditation, it requires both mindfulness and concentration.
My little and newbie experience is that i started to watch things as it is. As i start to watch things as it is, there isnt any formation of a thought by a self; There is arising and fleeting away of feelings, memories, sensation. Sometime, there is an association with a self, particulary with memories which could trigger other emotions too.
I had actually mispractised by holding onto state of the mind and concepts. It was after some suffering and attending a talk held by venerable, i began to understand deeper and better.
After watching the mind as it is, I feel much calmer< a conducive condition for wisdom to arise mah? It isn't just a calming state, the mind is less clouded with "personal stuffs". Actually, should i say, it is becos the mind is less cluttered that why it is calming.
so may i ask how will wisdom arise from all these observance to strike a realisation deep into your mind? Through further development of the four foundation of mindfulness? Deeper concentration and awareness of the subtle matters?
My understanding in this meditation is little. So please read it with discernment. In insight meditation, there is pervading awareness of all things. One is mindful and concentrated at the same time where one isn't lost in the thought. The self is not in control and by letting go is in control.
Since 'stillness' refer to go with the flow, not grasping and holding on. In shamatha practise, there isnt really a flow in the end when one-pointedness concentration is achieved??
So does shamatha meditation lead to this stillness of the mind?
Does insight meditation lead to this stillness of the mind?
Oh by the way, i need formal instruction on insight meditation...
i feel my knowledge is so limited.
/* sorry i keep changing.. just trying to refine what i wana to say and ask*/
Whereas, in Insight practise, one observes the reality of it -- as I have explained in the previous post, the difference between Concept as object (Shamatha) and Ultimate Reality (Vipassana). (http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=223091)
Regarding insight practise, I recommend that you read this book (it's free!), it's really a good book and written by a highly enlightened teacher (an arhat): http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Mastering%20Adobe%20Version.pdf -
Hi, I hope this is of help: http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_12.phpOriginally posted by paperflower:hhaha... ok thank you, i should have known. as good as not asking at all
maybe my practice will most likely continue in pregnancy state. with hormone changes and body fatigue and the anticipating labour pain to go through, it will bring me to new grounds on how i am going to apply what i have learnt so far. so can you also tell me how to practice non-duality at such stage and any "manual" to follow?
thanks in advance. i'll be away for a short while but will check back any advice and guidance.Problem 1
Best wishes for you and your baby
Physical Pain
Nobody likes pain, yet everybody has some sometime. It is one of life's most common experiences and is bound to arise in your meditation in one form or another. Handling pain is a two-stage process. First, get rid of the pain if possible or at least get rid of it as much as possible. Then, if some pain lingers, use it as an abject of meditation.
The first step is physical handling. Maybe the pain is an illness of one sort or another, a headache, fever, bruises or whatever. In this case, employ standard medical treatments before you sit down to meditate: take your medicine, apply your liniment, do whatever you ordinarily do. Then there are certain pains that are specific to the seated posture. If you never spend much time sitting cross-legged on the floor, there will be an adjustment period. Some discomfort is nearly inevitable. According to where the pain is, there are specific remedies. If the pain is in the leg or knees, check you pants. If they are tight or made of thick material, that could be the problem. Try to change it. Check your cushion, too. It should be about three inches in height when compressed. If the pain is around your waist, try loosening your belt. Loosen the waistband of your pants is that is necessary. If you experience pain in your lower back, your posture is probably at fault. Slouching will never be comfortable, so straighten up. Don't be tight or rigid, but do keep your spine erect. Pian in the neck or upper back has several sources. The first is improper hand position. Your hands should be resting comfortably in your lap. Don't pull them up to your waist. Relax your arms and your neck muscles. Don't let your head droop forward. Keep it up and aligned with the rest of the spine.
After you have made all these various adjustments, you may find you still have some lingering pain. If that is the case, try step two. Make the pain your object of meditation. Don't jump up and down and get excited. Just observe the pain mindfully. When the pain becomes demanding, you will find it pulling your attention off the breath. Don't fight back. Just let your attention slide easily over onto the simple sensation. Go into the pain fully. Don't block the experience. Explore the feeling. Get beyond your avoiding reaction and go into the pure sensations that lie below that. You will discover that there are two things present. The first is the simple sensation - pain itself. Second is your resistance to that sensation. Resistance reaction is partly mental and partly physical. The physical part consists of tensing the muscles in and around the painful area. Relax those muscles. Take them one by one and relax each one very thoroughly. This step alone probably diminishes the pain significantly. Then go after the mental side of the resistance. Just as you are tensing physically, you are also tensing psychologically. You are clamping down mentally on the sensation of pain, trying to screen it off and reject it from consciousness. The rejection is a wordless, "I don't like this feeling" or "go away" attitude. It is very subtle. But it is there, and you can find it if you really look. Locate it and relax that, too.
That last part is more subtle. There are really no human words to describe this action precisely. The best way to get a handle on it is by analogy. Examine what you did to those tight muscles and transfer that same action over to the mental sphere; relax the mind in the same way that you relax the body. Buddhism recognizes that the body and mind are tightly linked. This is so true that many people will not see this as a two-step procedure. For them to relax the body is to relax the mind and vice versa. These people will experience the entire relaxation, mental and physical, as a single process. In any case, just let go completely till you awareness slows down past that barrier which you yourself erected. It was a gap, a sense of distance between self and others. It was a borderline between 'me' and 'the pain'. Dissolve that barrier, and separation vanishes. You slow down into that sea of surging sensation and you merge with the pain. You become the pain. You watch its ebb and flow and something surprising happens. It no longer hurts. Suffering is gone. Only the pain remains, an experience, nothing more. The 'me' who was being hurt has gone. The result is freedom from pain.
This is an incremental process. In the beginning, you can expect to succeed with small pains and be defeated by big ones. Like most of our skills, it grows with practice. The more you practice, the bigger the pain you can handle. Please understand fully. There is no masochism being advocated here. Self-mortification is not the point.
This is an exercise in awareness, not in sadism. If the pain becomes excruciating, go ahead and move, but move slowly and mindfully. Observe your movements. See how it feels to move. Watch what it does to the pain. Watch the pain diminish. Try not to move too much though. The less you move, the easier it is to remain fully mindful. New meditators sometimes say they have trouble remaining mindful when pain is present. This difficulty stems from a misunderstanding. These students are conceiving mindfulness as something distinct from the experience of pain. It is not. Mindfulness never exists by itself. It always has some object and one object is as good as another. Pain is a mental state. You can be mindful of pain just as you are mindful of breathing.
The rules we covered in Chapter 4 apply to pain just as they apply to any other mental state. You must be careful not to reach beyond the sensation and not to fall short of it. Don't add anything to it, and don't miss any part of it. Don't muddy the pure experience with concepts or pictures or discursive thinking. And keep your awareness right in the present time, right with the pain, so that you won't miss its beginning or its end. Pain not viewed in the clear light of mindfulness gives rise to emotional reactions like fear, anxiety, or anger. If it is properly viewed, we have no such reaction. IT will be just sensation, just simple energy. Once you have learned this technique with physical pain, you can then generalize it in the rest of your life. You can use it on any unpleasant sensation. What works on pain will work on anxiety or chronic depression. This technique is one of life's most useful and generalizable skills. It is patience. -
Hi I've always wanted to start. Some questions for you (haha your post quite long so I did some skipping).
1) What must I think of when I meditate? My mind tends to wander...
2) Is there a special breathing technique or I can just breath normally?
Thanks and regards,
BKKboy -
Hi, with regards to meditation my advise to all is to learn under a qualified teacher.Originally posted by bangkokboy:Hi I've always wanted to start. Some questions for you (haha your post quite long so I did some skipping).
1) What must I think of when I meditate? My mind tends to wander...
2) Is there a special breathing technique or I can just breath normally?
Thanks and regards,
BKKboy
To answer your questions in short, one need not think of anything in meditation, and there is no need to control your breathe. However mindfulness is important. If you are practising Anapanasati, mindfulness of breathing is important. -
Yes understanding of pre-conscious momentum is as important as the intuitive experience of no-self. To have a complete picture, this must be understood.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:...At the coarser level of non-dual experience, we will only be able to experience it at the conscious level but not at the pre-conscious level. That is, the ‘Self’ consciousness does not surface that frequently and there are gaps in between experiences but the stronger afflictions are still there. This level is depicted in the 3 diagrams that I have drawn in Longchen's topic, the second one with a dotted circle, after the cracked mirror.
One must soon come to realisation of the deeper layer of consciousness, the more subtle aspects that continue to manifest when conditions are there. Once we are sincere and not fall into the trapped of no-self (not attached to it) and go further, we will soon realise the latent tendencies and the strength of it. A practitioner who knows how consciousness works knows the difficulties of uprooting these afflictions from the deeper layer and is always careful of what is being planted.
What is described in Nathan Gill's story is similar to the 'dark nights'... -
Hi JonLS,
Even letting go, surrendering or let be are all stories. In actual case this cannot be done as the 'I' never existed. Like mindfulness, they too are skillful means.
Ultimately there is only the complete awaking in the deepest sense that all is the One Reality spontaneously and ceaselessly manifesting. Liberation is this spontaneity and natural happening. Nothing needs be done. All else are skillful means. -
Quite fooling around with the human response endolphins... That's dangerous as the body can go into shockOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Best wishes for you and your baby -
thank you.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Best wishes for you and your baby
may i further enquire... in brief...
as some of the pain described in the post did not mention anything about the uncomfortable burning heat experienced in the area between the chest and stomach for a pregnant woman. also there is inevitable panting due to pressure from the abdominant speeding up breath for more oxygen and faster-than-normal heart beats. there will also be physical fatigue experienced due to the weight of the baby which will also stretch up the body muscles and other internal organs and the water retention and that tight, big tummy which will cause inconvenience to sit down crossed legged in lotus or half lotus posture for long time. so in such situation, how does a pregnant woman apply practice in meditation as the sitting position seem more conveniently catered to people who are not pregnant. (of cos posture with straight back is always good even for pregnant or elderly people) and also due to hormonal changes, one can be temperamental and emotional at times. and also with the movement & kicking of the baby in the tummy which can be experienced and felt vividly by the expectant mother, and in the midst of all above mentioned conditions, how does she cope and practice non-duality during meditation? the concept of pain is all the same to a certain degree? i been through these symptoms and discomfort and at some point of time it was unbearable. another curious question is, when the mother is meditating and while experiencing some tranquility or absorption, how does it affect the baby inside? will the baby be just as healthy and rejuvenated or any danger to it during absorption? this is the 1st time that i'll be incorporating meditation into my pregnancy as i have never done any sort of yoga or any meditation retreat during my previous one. i actually plan to go into a peaceful retreat and enjoy the quiet moments doing more meditation besides other balanced healthy activities and do hope i'll be able to cope better than last time.
is there any special mantra to recite during pregnancy for the "safety" of the mother and child?
anyway, i remembered coming across something in ksitigarbha sutra and just found it again. for the benefit of readers, here's an abstraction from chapter 8:
At that time from within the Iron Ring Mountain, Lord Yama and his following of infinite ghost kings came before the Buddha in the Trayastrimsha Heaven.
A ghost king in the assembly named Lord of Life said to the Buddha,
"When women in Jambudvipa have just borne children, be they boys or girls, or when they are just about to give birth, good deeds should be done to increase the benefits of the household, thus causing the local earth spirits to be immeasurably pleased. The spirits will then protect the mother and child so that they experience peace and happiness; they will bring benefit to the entire family.
After the birth, all killing for the purpose of offering fresh meat to the mother should be carefully avoided, as should parties that involve consumption of alcohol, eating of meat, singing, and playing musical instruments. All those things can keep the mother and child from being peaceful and happy. Why is that?
At the difficult time of birth, uncountable evil ghosts, including mountain sprites, goblins, and spirit-beings, desire to eat the strong-smelling blood. I quickly order the local earth spirits of that household to protect the mother and child, allowing them to be peaceful and happy and to receive other benefits.
When people in such households witness those benefits, they should do meritorious deeds to express their gratitude to the earth spirits. If instead, they harm and kill, and have big parties involving feasting and entertainment, then the retributions that result from such offenses will be born by they themselves and will bring harm to the mother and child as well."
so, i guess the best protection or mantra is still reciting the buddha's name or any bodhisattva's name or even ksitigarbha's and of cos doing one's own good deed by the law of causes and effect.
sorry for keep editing the post. i'm getting a bit fickled-minded. -
why meditate when you can sleep?
-
Hi Thusness,
Hi JonLS,
I know what you talking about here, because I had a moment of complete clarity a few day ago.
Even letting go, surrendering or let be are all stories. In actual case this cannot be done as the 'I' never existed. Like mindfulness, they too are skillful means.
Ultimately there is only the complete awaking in the deepest sense that all is the One Reality spontaneously and ceaselessly manifesting. Liberation is this spontaneity and natural happening. Nothing needs be done. All else are skillful means.
I saw that all there really is is awareness.
Just awareness.
Everything else is just stories.
It was a wonderful liberating insight.
I recognized what was being said by Nathan Gill, when he said that all words are not "it". And have nothing to do with "it".
Unless you have the insight, the experience yourself, it is quite useless to talk about it.
So I encourage everyone to go after the insight and stop spending so much time with words. -
Hi AnEternalNow,
From what I learnt from Thusness...
Should you be trying to learn from Thusness or should you be letting go of all learning?
Why are you taking yourself so seriously?
Is there anything really that needs to be learned???
Who is it that needs to do all this learning???
Where is this "you" that you are taking so seriously???
Do you really think Zen teachings are all that necessary???