Why meditate?
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Even the enlightened will commit evil karma if they are still human.Originally posted by oldkid:That is quite true. Buddhist cultivators are often very very careful in dedication of merits when virtues are done. Dedications of merits from a Buddhist cultivator will always be that the cultivator wanting to practise the Dharma without karmic obstructions or in future lifetimes be born as a human to futher cultivate in Dharma. To be reborn as a deva (GOD) in the realms of the heaven might be blissful BUT once all the merits are spent, usually the devas will be reborn back as humans or worst, into the 3 miserable realms.
Our mind are very powerful. High practitioners are often able to taste dhayana bliss which is similar to those in the Gods realms.
Why wouldn't Buddhist cultivators want to be Gods? It is very simple. Just take a look around you in this modern society. People who are enjoying alot do not practise or cultivate. Knowing that life is good, they continued their ways and commiting evil karma is so simple. This applies to the realms of the Gods too. -
Liberated persons (arhants, bodhisattvas, buddhas) stops creating karma. Karma needs volitional activities, and enlightened people have emptied volitional activities, everything -- his actions, etc, arises out of spontaneity.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Even the enlightened will commit evil karma if they are still human.
Although they may still need to suffer from past karma. (i.e get sick, etc) -
I doubt so, since you said that karma may also arise from non-volitional activities.(like breathing)Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Liberated persons (arhants, bodhisattvas, buddhas) stops creating karma. Karma needs volitional activities, and enlightened people have emptied volitional activities, everything -- his actions, etc, arises out of spontaneity.
Although they may still need to suffer from past karma. (i.e get sick, etc)
Like in Chaos Theory, a butterfly flapping its wings in Singapore may cause a typhoon somewhere in the world, an enlightened one breathing may cause a hurricane somewhere in the world. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
No, I never say that.
I doubt so, since you said that karma may also arise from non-volitional activities.(like breathing)Like in Chaos Theory, a butterfly flapping its wings in Singapore may cause a typhoon somewhere in the world, an enlightened one breathing may cause a hurricane somewhere in the world.
That theory is unfounded and based on speculations. Butterfly cannot possibly create hurricane or tornadoes.
Of course his actions can have consequences in the real world but still no karma is involved. Just like inanimate things create effects but no karma, no afterlife, and so on. Another thing is a liberated person generally has much greater wisdom than us and probably knows better, secondly whatever he does he will not do it due to his fundamental attraction or aversion to things as he has fundamentally severed these fetters. (i.e he will not steal out of craving or kill someone out of hatred) -
Oh the Chaos Theory is not proven yet as far as I know (I might be wrong). However, I'm very sure that Enlightened Beings are not capable of creating evil Karma as they fully understood what the five skandas are. Enlightenment also does not happen overnight. It takes aeons (great kalpa) of cultivations. A normal person may get angry easily while driving when someone cuts into his/her lane. So why does one person get angry so easily? This is due to lifetimes after lifetimes of practise on anger and not controlling one's temper. It becomes a nature to this person no matter where he/she goes. Likewise, a great cultivator of patience will cultivate patience lifetimes after lifetimes. He/she will naturally be patient. Since he/she is patient, it is unlikely he will have offensive speech in his mind/speech, hence negative karma creation is avoided.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I doubt so, since you said that karma may also arise from non-volitional activities.(like breathing)
Like in Chaos Theory, a butterfly flapping its wings in Singapore may cause a typhoon somewhere in the world, an enlightened one breathing may cause a hurricane somewhere in the world.
One last thing to note is that it takes alot of merit to understand Dharma/Sutra, so it will take countless merit to get enlightened.
Cherrio -
However, as I said, not all actions are voluntary... http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226620&page=0Originally posted by oldkid:Oh the Chaos Theory is not proven yet as far as I know (I might be wrong). However, I'm very sure that Enlightened Beings are not capable of creating evil Karma as they fully understood what the five skandas are. Enlightenment also does not happen overnight. It takes aeons (great kalpa) of cultivations. A normal person may get angry easily while driving when someone cuts into his/her lane. So why does one person get angry so easily? This is due to lifetimes after lifetimes of practise on anger and not controlling one's temper. It becomes a nature to this person no matter where he/she goes. Likewise, a great cultivator of patience will cultivate patience lifetimes after lifetimes. He/she will naturally be patient. Since he/she is patient, it is unlikely he will have offensive speech in his mind/speech, hence negative karma creation is avoided.
One last thing to note is that it takes alot of merit to understand Dharma/Sutra, so it will take countless merit to get enlightened.
Cherrio -
Herzog_Zwei,
You asked alot of good questions which I have asked myself in the past and sometimes even now too. However, the answers to your questions will not be easily understood through questions and answers session in a forum or even face to face discussion with someone. The answers need to be sought out by actually practising Dharma. Mere reading from Sutras, commentary or even attending Dharma talks will only give a person basic concepts of how things are. To really have full understanding and insights, Dharma need to be practised. The more you practise Dharma in your daily life, the more you will come to understand your questions asked.
Cherrio -
I can't practice something I don't understand, so I can only try to understand first.Originally posted by oldkid:Herzog_Zwei,
You asked alot of good questions which I have asked myself in the past and sometimes even now too. However, the answers to your questions will not be easily understood through questions and answers session in a forum or even face to face discussion with someone. The answers need to be sought out by actually practising Dharma. Mere reading from Sutras, commentary or even attending Dharma talks will only give a person basic concepts of how things are. To really have full understanding and insights, Dharma need to be practised. The more you practise Dharma in your daily life, the more you will come to understand your questions asked.
Cherrio -
Involuntary actions usually does not result in karma, but in certain cases, it is somehow voluntary although he may not be aware of the full extent of the effects, however in such cases certain karma is still committed.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:However, as I said, not all actions are voluntary... http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226620&page=0 -
Hi Herzog_Zwei,
You are correct in a sense that most people can't practise what they don't understand. But I guess you do have basic knowledge. It is from this basic knowledge that we start practising bits by bits and correct any misunderstandings and gain new understandings.
There are many things we can start practising from, like the 10 Virtuous Deeds. The more you practise in them, the more you will be able to gain knowledge in Dharma as it is all linked if you look deeper into it.
No worries Herzog_Zwei, start little by little and don't pressure yourself too much. We can help if you need any advice.
Cherrio -
The next question is why must we practice them even though we may have as you say some basic knowledge? I doubt I have the albility to understand you in this area.Originally posted by oldkid:Hi Herzog_Zwei,
You are correct in a sense that most people can't practise what they don't understand. But I guess you do have basic knowledge. It is from this basic knowledge that we start practising bits by bits and correct any misunderstandings and gain new understandings.
There are many things we can start practising from, like the 10 Virtuous Deeds. The more you practise in them, the more you will be able to gain knowledge in Dharma as it is all linked if you look deeper into it.
No worries Herzog_Zwei, start little by little and don't pressure yourself too much. We can help if you need any advice.
Cherrio -
Because morality is the foundation of Samadhi and Insight cultivation.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol7no4a.htm
....I hope lay-Buddhists understand that they should not be overly ambitious in their cultivation and in the process neglect the fundamentals. The first step is to conscientiously observe the Five Precepts and perform the Ten Virtuous Deeds, and then they can truly call themselves practitioners of the Humanity Vehicle. It would be ideal if everybody observe the Five Precepts and perform the Ten Virtuous Deeds first; and if the conditions and your capacity permit, proceed further to observe the Bodhisattva Precepts and practise the Bodhisattva path of the Greater Vehicle.... -
Hehe, because what we read from Sutras or books or even discourses given by monks/Guru only make us understand the concept. Understnading of a concept is a very surface thing. It is through practising one can have insight and fully understand. It is the same as reading from a book that says "Lemon is sour". It is easily understood, now I have the bsic concept/knowledge that lemon is sour. But what kind of sourness and how sour is it? Taste the lemon and one will find out.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:The next question is why must we practice them even though we may have as you say some basic knowledge? I doubt I have the albility to understand you in this area.
Cherrio -
Can it be possible that I don't even have that basic knowledge?Originally posted by oldkid:Hehe, because what we read from Sutras or books or even discourses given by monks/Guru only make us understand the concept. Understnading of a concept is a very surface thing. It is through practising one can have insight and fully understand. It is the same as reading from a book that says "Lemon is sour". It is easily understood, now I have the bsic concept/knowledge that lemon is sour. But what kind of sourness and how sour is it? Taste the lemon and one will find out.
Cherrio -
It is hard to tell becasue it depends on what you want to practise in. In my point of view, basic knowledge will act as guideline on how to do things. While doing, you will gain new experiences on the things you are doing. And these experience will accumulates to the basic knowledge you already have, making you see/understand things better.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Can it be possible that I don't even have that basic knowledge?
For example from the previous example "Lemon is sour" You have this basic knowledge from reading books. Once you actually go and taste the lemon you might experience "Yeeeww!!! Lemon so sour it bites my tounge and eyes tears. I'll never eat lemon like this again!" The new experiences are your tounge got "bitten" and it's so sour your eyes tears abit. From these 2 new experiences, now you can better understand and relate to how sour the lemon is.
So for your question, you will need to find out what you want to practise. If you want to know for example if "Oranges are sweet" because someone said "Oranges are sweet" in the forum, first you will have to get a good encyclopedia that is authentic and see what it says about oranges. After gathering enough information, you can try tasting the oranges. In learning Dharma, it is always good to learn from a Guru/Teacher so you will learn even more.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Cherrio -
Because I find the theory of dharma as false in the first place, hence I am using logic to understand it.Originally posted by oldkid:It is hard to tell becasue it depends on what you want to practise in. In my point of view, basic knowledge will act as guideline on how to do things. While doing, you will gain new experiences on the things you are doing. And these experience will accumulates to the basic knowledge you already have, making you see/understand things better.
For example from the previous example "Lemon is sour" You have this basic knowledge from reading books. Once you actually go and taste the lemon you might experience "Yeeeww!!! Lemon so sour it bites my tounge and eyes tears. I'll never eat lemon like this again!" The new experiences are your tounge got "bitten" and it's so sour your eyes tears abit. From these 2 new experiences, now you can better understand and relate to how sour the lemon is.
So for your question, you will need to find out what you want to practise. If you want to know for example if "Oranges are sweet" because someone said "Oranges are sweet" in the forum, first you will have to get a good encyclopedia that is authentic and see what it says about oranges. After gathering enough information, you can try tasting the oranges. In learning Dharma, it is always good to learn from a Guru/Teacher so you will learn even more.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Cherrio -
mm believe it anot, im actually learning something out of this conversation!
: ) -
How can you know if dharma is false when you never even practised and see for yourselves? Worse still, you said you don't even have basic knowledge. So basically you are dismissing something which you haven't experienced (even though countless others had) and haven't even learnt or knew as 'false'.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Because I find the theory of dharma as false in the first place, hence I am using logic to understand it.
This is the worst kind of dogma. -
Hi may i know in what ways do u find the dharma as false ?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Because I find the theory of dharma as false in the first place, hence I am using logic to understand it.
How about approaching this matters with a rather more flexible perspective ?
Try take up oldkid suggestion? -
In using your logic to understand it, do you still find the theory of dharma to be false? If you still find the it to be false, which theory do you find it to be false? Do appreciate if you can share with us.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Because I find the theory of dharma as false in the first place, hence I am using logic to understand it.
Cherrio -
Originally posted by Isis:mm believe it anot, im actually learning something out of this conversation!
: ) Very good!
Cherrio -
Still having trouble trying to prove that rebirth and karma exists, which would lead to understanding why suffering exists.Originally posted by oldkid:In using your logic to understand it, do you still find the theory of dharma to be false? If you still find the it to be false, which theory do you find it to be false? Do appreciate if you can share with us.
Cherrio -
No, Buddha specifically said 'desire' (fundamental dualistic desires) causes 'sufferings'. He didn't say rebirth and karma as the direct cause of sufferings.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Still having trouble trying to prove that rebirth and karma exists, which would lead to understanding why suffering exists.
Also, there is evidences of rebirth, but no evidence disproving rebirth. Other than scientific evidence, there is experiential evidences. So basically, there is no reason to reject these teachings.
If you like to find out more I suggest you may attend some Buddhist classes. Best to learn from an enlightened teacher directly and practise the dharma... then eventually you can see for yourselves the truths that Buddha taught, directly. -
Yes indeed there are many proofs and evidence that rebirth exist. If you find it difficult to accept or believe for the time being, it is ok. Slowly learn about them and keep an open mind.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Still having trouble trying to prove that rebirth and karma exists, which would lead to understanding why suffering exists.
As for Karma, it is just a sanskrit word for actions. The basic working of karma or action is that when there's an effect, there is definitely a cause. Your tounge gets bitten by the sour lemon is the effect. The cause for it is eating the lemon. That is the basic working of karma. Every single action a person do will have an effect. Look around yourself in your daily life and if you pay great attention, you will see it happening.
And also, since you said that you find the theory of dharma false in the first place, that means you know that true dharma do exist. Do you agree?
Cherrio -
Hard physical reproducible evidence is required.Originally posted by oldkid:Yes indeed there are many proofs and evidence that rebirth exist. If you find it difficult to accept or believe for the time being, it is ok. Slowly learn about them and keep an open mind.
As for Karma, it is just a sanskrit word for actions. The basic working of karma or action is that when there's an effect, there is definitely a cause. Your tounge gets bitten by the sour lemon is the effect. The cause for it is eating the lemon. That is the basic working of karma. Every single action a person do will have an effect. Look around yourself in your daily life and if you pay great attention, you will see it happening.
And also, since you said that you find the theory of dharma false in the first place, that means you know that true dharma do exist. Do you agree?
Cherrio
Sufferring I believe is due to negative karma which is due to unskilled action.