Why meditate?
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So there is negative karma caused by unskilled actions which leds to sufferings. And you do agree that positive karma caused by skilled actions led to bliss, right? The hard physical reproducible evidence you required comes from them. Let's take 2 babies for example. One born healthy and complete. The other is born unhealthy and deformed (Down Syndrome). If rebirth does not exist, these 2 lives will be a fresh start. Since they are fresh start and is not capable of creating any karma for 10 months in their mom's womb, why would one be healthy and the other be deformed?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hard physical reproducible evidence is required.
Sufferring I believe is due to negative karma which is due to unskilled action.
Another easier example to look is one baby is born into a rich family and the other into a poor family. Again, 10 months in the womb will render the babies incapable of creating any karma, negative and positive. So when they are born, why does one have to suffer in poverty and the other blessed with all the riches? If you take a good look at everyone around you, they are all the hard physical evidence you need.
Cherrio -
They recieved their parents karma?Originally posted by oldkid:So there is negative karma caused by unskilled actions which leds to sufferings. And you do agree that positive karma caused by skilled actions led to bliss, right? The hard physical reproducible evidence you required comes from them. Let's take 2 babies for example. One born healthy and complete. The other is born unhealthy and deformed (Down Syndrome). If rebirth does not exist, these 2 lives will be a fresh start. Since they are fresh start and is not capable of creating any karma for 10 months in their mom's womb, why would one be healthy and the other be deformed?
Another easier example to look is one baby is born into a rich family and the other into a poor family. Again, 10 months in the womb will render the babies incapable of creating any karma, negative and positive. So when they are born, why does one have to suffer in poverty and the other blessed with all the riches? If you take a good look at everyone around you, they are all the hard physical evidence you need.
Cherrio -
Yes and no
No, Karma is non transferable. It will be the same as "I'm hungry, can you eat for me and fill up my stomache?" What ever good and evil the parent had done, it is not transferred to any other people or even its child.
Whether the child is born healthy and deformed, the child AND the parent will have to take part together in some deeds committed before. This will explain in previous lifetimes and previous karma accumulated.
Cherrio -
In the wake of the Asian Tsunamis, Ven. Shi MingYi commented that nations can also accumulate karma. By the same token, can a family (as a social unit) also accumulate karma?Originally posted by oldkid:Yes and no
No, Karma is non transferable. It will be the same as "I'm hungry, can you eat for me and fill up my stomache?" What ever good and evil the parent had done, it is not transferred to any other people or even its child.
Whether the child is born healthy and deformed, the child AND the parent will have to take part together in some deeds committed before. This will explain in previous lifetimes and previous karma accumulated.
Cherrio -
Yes, that is called collective karma.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:In the wake of the Asian Tsunamis, Ven. Shi MingYi commented that nations can also accumulate karma. By the same token, can a family (as a social unit) also accumulate karma?
Cherrio -
Whenever something bad/something good happens to a group of people, it is the result of collective karma.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:In the wake of the Asian Tsunamis, Ven. Shi MingYi commented that nations can also accumulate karma. By the same token, can a family (as a social unit) also accumulate karma?
So car accidents with many ppl in it, airplane incident, natural disasters, are bad collective karma. If the country is prosperous perhaps there is some collective good karma. -
Anyway Chaos Theory is really good. It really corresponds with Buddhism's interdependent co-arising teaching of Emptiness. Regarding this see recent thread, Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?
Thusness says, Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation. -
well, let's all make our small effort to see if we can topple the world's collective karma to positive..
jia you everyone ! -
Oh and this reminds me..Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyway Chaos Theory is really good. It really corresponds with Buddhism's interdependent co-arising teaching of Emptiness. Regarding this see recent thread, Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?
Thusness says, Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective, the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Interesting quote of the day:
“There is more information in one thimble of reality
than can be understood by a galaxy of human brains. It is
beyond the human brain to understand the world and its
environment, so the brain compensates by creating simplified
illusions that act as a replacement for understanding.
When the illusions work well and the human who subscribes
to the illusion survives, those illusions are passed to new
generations.
“The human brain is a delusion generator.
The delusions
are fueled by arrogance—the arrogance that humans are the
center of the world, that we alone are endowed with the magical
properties of souls and morality and free will and love. We
presume that an omnipotent God has a unique interest in our
progress and activities while providing all the rest of creation
for our playground. We believe that God—because he thinks
the same way we do—must be more interested in our lives
than in the rocks and trees and plants and animals.” -
To those who are interested, The Holographic Paradigm is also similar to Buddhism. I have posted previously in the forum, The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality
Brief intro: http://consciousnessproject.org/page.asp?PageID=12
Holographic Paradigm (The Implicate Order)
By Scott Jeffrey
The Theory in a Nutshell
The late physicist David Bohm posited a wonderful theory of the universe’s holographic nature. A hologram represents both a visible and an invisible image created by the interference patterns of a split beam of laser light (light of a single wavelength). Bohm called the visible “unfolded” reality (the one we can visually see, like the three-dimensional metallic image on a credit card) the explicate order and the invisible “enfolded” domain the implicate order. Although this “folded” domain is beyond measurement and conscious observation, the implicate order is more than just an abstract concept. The implicate order is an unobservable realm beyond the linear, space-time experience, similar to the concept of “phase space” discussed in Chaos Theory.
Significance to Consciousness and Spirituality
The holographic model represents a profound leap toward spiritual reality, illuminating three key distinctions:
1. In a hologram, every point contains the whole. For example, if you broke a holographic image of a pinecone into a hundred pieces, each piece would contain the entire image of the pinecone, not just that particular piece.
2. The appearance of a holographic image changes depending on the viewpoint of the observer. The image itself never changes; we only perceive a change based on where and when we observe it. This parallels discoveries in Quantum Theory where the observer and the observed are inextricably linked—the observer’s intention affects what he observes.
3. A holographic universe implies there is an unseen realm (implicate order) that is governing everything that occurs in the observable world. Moving beyond the linear mental construct of causality (a component of the Newtonian paradigm), we see that everything arising in the physical world is a manifestation of the implicate order, or the unmanifest realm. Creation is unfolding in each instant from the unmanifest realm. As Dr. Hawkins’ asks, “Where is the Empire State Building before it is built?” It is a potentiality of the unmanifest domain that, when the necessary conditions present themselves, becomes manifest in the physical world. -
Like I said it will NOT cause hurricane or tornadoes lahOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I doubt so, since you said that karma may also arise from non-volitional activities.(like breathing)
Like in Chaos Theory, a butterfly flapping its wings in Singapore may cause a typhoon somewhere in the world, an enlightened one breathing may cause a hurricane somewhere in the world.
But even if something an enlightened person done has cause some effects elsewhere, he will not get any karma. Because karma is intentional/volitional action. An enlightened being has fully realised his true nature and disidentified with volitional activities and thus stops creating karma forever. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
More about the Holographic Implicate Order, the non-local, interdependent co-arising kind of Order, please read 'Enter the Hologram' (right click, click View Image/Show Picture to see in full):
To those who are interested, The Holographic Paradigm is also similar to Buddhism. I have posted previously in the forum, The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic Reality
Brief intro: http://consciousnessproject.org/page.asp?PageID=12
[b]Holographic Paradigm (The Implicate Order)
By Scott Jeffrey
The Theory in a Nutshell
The late physicist David Bohm posited a wonderful theory of the universe’s holographic nature. A hologram represents both a visible and an invisible image created by the interference patterns of a split beam of laser light (light of a single wavelength). Bohm called the visible “unfolded” reality (the one we can visually see, like the three-dimensional metallic image on a credit card) the explicate order and the invisible “enfolded” domain the implicate order. Although this “folded” domain is beyond measurement and conscious observation, the implicate order is more than just an abstract concept. The implicate order is an unobservable realm beyond the linear, space-time experience, similar to the concept of “phase space” discussed in Chaos Theory.
Significance to Consciousness and Spirituality
The holographic model represents a profound leap toward spiritual reality, illuminating three key distinctions:
1. In a hologram, every point contains the whole. For example, if you broke a holographic image of a pinecone into a hundred pieces, each piece would contain the entire image of the pinecone, not just that particular piece.
2. The appearance of a holographic image changes depending on the viewpoint of the observer. The image itself never changes; we only perceive a change based on where and when we observe it. This parallels discoveries in Quantum Theory where the observer and the observed are inextricably linked—the observer’s intention affects what he observes.
3. A holographic universe implies there is an unseen realm (implicate order) that is governing everything that occurs in the observable world. Moving beyond the linear mental construct of causality (a component of the Newtonian paradigm), we see that everything arising in the physical world is a manifestation of the implicate order, or the unmanifest realm. Creation is unfolding in each instant from the unmanifest realm. As Dr. Hawkins’ asks, “Where is the Empire State Building before it is built?” It is a potentiality of the unmanifest domain that, when the necessary conditions present themselves, becomes manifest in the physical world. [/b]
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Oh my! This is really interesting!
The way they described it is so similar to some commentaries in Sutras. Rejoice!
Cherrio -
Ya I especialy like this article a lot: The Universe as a Hologram - Holographic RealityOriginally posted by oldkid:Oh my! This is really interesting! The way they described it is so similar to some commentaries in Sutras. Rejoice!
Cherrio -
How would you know and how would you not know? What is true reality and what is false perception? How true is your reality?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like I said it will NOT cause hurricane or tornadoes lah
But even if something an enlightened person done has cause some effects elsewhere, he will not get any karma. Because karma is intentional/volitional action. An enlightened being has fully realised his true nature and disidentified with volitional activities and thus stops creating karma forever.
Does an enlightened one who has reborned stop living? Or an enlightened one lives in a different phase than the environment which all living things lives in? Any action may constitute changes to the environment and such actions may be big or small. So a single breath from an enlightened one may create a hurricane from a suitable condition. -
How about you changing the places of your left hand and your right hand? Some things are not connected to each other even though they appear so.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:More about the Holographic Implicate Order, the non-local, interdependent co-arising kind of Order, please read 'Enter the Hologram' (right click, click View Image/Show Picture to see in full): -
How did you conclude that a single breath from an enlightened being may create a hurricane? Why is it a hurricane and not a thunderstorm?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How would you know and how would you not know? What is true reality and what is false perception? How true is your reality?
Does an enlightened one who has reborned stop living? Or an enlightened one lives in a different phase than the environment which all living things lives in? Any action may constitute changes to the environment and such actions may be big or small. So a single breath from an enlightened one may create a hurricane from a suitable condition.
Cherrio -
First of all there is no evidence whatsoever that breathing or butterfly flapping can possibly cause tornadoes or hurricanes. It does not make sense. There must be a host of conditions. Of breathing can cause hurricanes, everyday we should have billions of hurricanes in the world because everyone breathes.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How would you know and how would you not know? What is true reality and what is false perception? How true is your reality?
Does an enlightened one who has reborned stop living? Or an enlightened one lives in a different phase than the environment which all living things lives in? Any action may constitute changes to the environment and such actions may be big or small. So a single breath from an enlightened one may create a hurricane from a suitable condition.
Secondly enlightened people live in the same environment as us, however they stops creating karma. -
decided to start a new topic instead: be in touch with unseen nature - Andrew PK Yap
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Then why does Chaos Theory conclude the flapping of the wings of a butterfly may create a tornado somewhere? It shows that all living beings are interlinked to each other as well as the environment. If so, then the breathe of an enlightened being should also be able to cause changes to the weather.Originally posted by oldkid:How did you conclude that a single breath from an enlightened being may create a hurricane? Why is it a hurricane and not a thunderstorm?
Cherrio -
The only reason to meditate regularly is to arrive at some goal in the future.
This is pure efforting by the ego.
It's the ego that feels there is a problem now that needs to be solved by meditation.
And so the question is asked:
What is wrong with the present moment unless you think about it???
Be still now.
Let go of thought now.
You don't need future or time to do this.
This is so very simple.
Why is everyone complicating it so?
Ask a small child if there's a problem with now.
Be childlike.
Have an innocent mind. -
Perhaps an enlightened one simply stops asking questions.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How would you know and how would you not know? What is true reality and what is false perception? How true is your reality?
Does an enlightened one who has reborned stop living? Or an enlightened one lives in a different phase than the environment which all living things lives in? Any action may constitute changes to the environment and such actions may be big or small. So a single breath from an enlightened one may create a hurricane from a suitable condition.
Can you just rest in the present moment?
Without having a need to do something, to know something? -
If an enlightened one stops asking questions then why is he enlightened?Originally posted by JonLS:Perhaps an enlightened one simply stops asking questions.
Can you just rest in the present moment?
Without having a need to do something, to know something?
I ask because I want to know so I cannot stop asking. -
Buddhism's enlightenment is not about gaining a conceptual understanding of anything. Grasping on any perceptions is due to ignorance.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If an enlightened one stops asking questions then why is he enlightened?
I ask because I want to know so I cannot stop asking.
Rather, enlightenment is insight through direct experience of the ultimate reality. -
Please note that when Edward Lorenz presented the Chaos Theory paper to the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington, D.C in 1972, it was just a title to his paper, not a proven fact. In fact the title "Does the Flap of a ButterflyÂ’s Wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas?" is an analogy. The butterfly flapping its wings represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena represented by the tornado. This is all an analogy.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then why does Chaos Theory conclude the flapping of the wings of a butterfly may create a tornado somewhere? It shows that all living beings are interlinked to each other as well as the environment. If so, then the breathe of an enlightened being should also be able to cause changes to the weather.
Chaos theory is applied in many scientific disciplines: mathematics, biology, computer science, economics, engineering, finance, philosophy, physics, politics, population dynamics, psychology, and robotics. Because of the availbilty of powerful computers today, scientists are able to set small changes in the initial conditions of a given senario and run multiple simulations on the senarios to see the different effects and the accuracy of the experiments.
The breath of an enlightened being is of no difference from yours and mine (if they are still breathing.
). But the breath itself is simply too small to even qualify even as an "small change" in the initial condition. It is what mathematicians called them "N.A.".
Cherrio