Why meditate?
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Tell me how you experience anything without physical stimulus?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddhism's enlightenment is not about gaining a conceptual understanding of anything. Grasping on any perceptions is due to ignorance.
Rather, enlightenment is insight through direct experience of the ultimate reality. -
Guess how large is the human lung and its capacity and compare it with the volume of air be disturbed by the wings of a butterfly, now can you quantify it as a small change?Originally posted by oldkid:Please note that when Edward Lorenz presented the Chaos Theory paper to the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington, D.C in 1972, it was just a title to his paper, not a proven fact. In fact the title "Does the Flap of a ButterflyÂ’s Wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas?" is an analogy. The butterfly flapping its wings represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena represented by the tornado. This is all an analogy.
Chaos theory is applied in many scientific disciplines: mathematics, biology, computer science, economics, engineering, finance, philosophy, physics, politics, population dynamics, psychology, and robotics. Because of the availbilty of powerful computers today, scientists are able to set small changes in the initial conditions of a given senario and run multiple simulations on the senarios to see the different effects and the accuracy of the experiments.
The breath of an enlightened being is of no difference from yours and mine (if they are still breathing.
). But the breath itself is simply too small to even qualify even as an "small change" in the initial condition. It is what mathematicians called them "N.A.". 
Cherrio -
Enlightenment has nothing to do with experiencing anything physical objects or any particular conditioned phenomena (in fact you need to detach from all of them first), but rather, it is likened to awakening from a long dream to find that all along all there is is just the ultimate reality of luminous emptiness, there is nothing to hold on to, therefore, it cannot be known as an "experience". I am tempted to call it "non experience", but "non experience" or "experience" are both concepts, enlightenment is beyond all.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Tell me how you experience anything without physical stimulus?
Next, even when all sense consciousness fades away, there is still a chance to glimpse our primordial Clear Light, and attain liberation. This also shows that our ground luminosity with emptiness as its nature does not cease upon death or upon the stopping of sense perceptions, therefore ultimate reality of Luminous-Emptiness is everlasting and is not dependent on any sense objects. But for most non practitioners this is impossible, and even if there is someone to talk him into it, without prior practise, it is very difficult.
But this Clear Light is not the light we think of, it is not red light, or blue light, being formless it is beyond everything you can imagine. Therefore the Tibetan Book of the Dead say it is "colorless light", it does not literally mean light as we know, but a form of luminous brightness that can be fully known (when you awaken). Yet without the primal luminosity aspect, there is no way we can ever cognize any physical stimulus. An analogy: without the sunlight or whatever light, it will be impossible to see what is going on in the room.
Regarding Clear Light, Padmasambhava says:Since the Clear Light of your own intrinsic awareness is empty, it is the Dharmakaya;
Again, intuitive, direct experience cannot be imagined by our ideas and concepts especially when ultimate reality transcends words and concepts. Any attempts to try to grasp it conceptually is as futile as describing colours to a blind man. You need to practise and get enlightened yourself.
And this is like the sun rising in a cloudless illuminated sky.
Even though (this light cannot be said) to possess a particular shape or form, nevertheless, it can be fully known.
The meaning of this, whether or not it is understood, is especially significant. -
Also since I said clear light is everlasting, I have to clarify.
http://www.fpmt.org/faq/mod1_faq_p4.asp#3
As stated in the teachings, buddha nature is defined as the emptiness of the fundamental clear light mind. The clear light of death is still a relative level of mind. But, because of the lack of conceptual thought at this level - its clear, luminous nature - it is see as analogous to buddha nature and used in meditation to approach complete union with buddha nature.
The mirror is an imperfect, but useful, analogy for the mind. Like a mirror mind 'reflects' what it comes in contact with. In that sense it also changes from moment to moment. The basic clear and knowing nature of the mind is sustained, just as the mirror's clear, reflective nature does not change.
That which is clear and knowing (the definition of mind) is eternal, as opposed to permanent. Eternal because it never ceases; it continues in its momentary, ever-changing (impermanent) flow into eternity. So, it is eternal and impermanent.
~ Lama Zopa Rinpoche -
Excellent answer!Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Buddhism's enlightenment is not about gaining a conceptual understanding of anything. Grasping on any perceptions is due to ignorance.
Rather, enlightenment is insight through direct experience of the ultimate reality.
Grasping is also a deep seated unconscious habit.
I should know, I've been doing it for so long!!! -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Guess how large is the human lung and its capacity and compare it with the volume of air be disturbed by the wings of a butterfly, now can you quantify it as a small change?
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Hence, there's no such thing. I still don't understand your concept neither do most scientist.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Again, intuitive, direct experience cannot be imagined by our ideas and concepts especially when ultimate reality transcends words and concepts. Any attempts to try to grasp it conceptually is as futile as describing colours to a blind man. You need to practise and get enlightened yourself. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Baseless assumptions. Just because you are blind and you can't see red colour, doesn't mean there is no red colour.
Hence, there's no such thing.I still don't understand your concept neither do most scientist.
As far as I know most scientists and most people will understand what I said. So if you don't understand, you still need to explain what you do not understand. Secondly, there is a difference between not understanding conceptually and not directly experiencing. You cannot understand is due to my explanation not being detailed. You haven't experienced is because, using a relative-truth analogy, your mirror mind is covered by a layer of dust (i.e your illusions and attachments), and you cannot see what underlies that layer of dust (if I take the mirror as our buddha nature). Therefore we need to practise and purify our minds.
You asked how to experience anything without 5 senses. I say it is not an experience of anything in particular, but the direct seeing into the true nature of everything which is at the same time no-thing. It is seeing the luminous emptiness nature, the reality of all. This luminosity never fails to reflect. It is a mirror-like awareness that enables the 5 senses + the mind to be cognized.. without which, there can be no consciousness of any of sensory input. Whatever is present, it just reflects. If it is good, it reflects. Even if it is bad, awareness just reflects. It is impartial. Even if there is no sensory input, there is just the reflection of no sensory input. Yet, it is not exactly like a mirror we normally think because it is not a permanent entity, rather it is just a moment to moment reflecting. This reflecting does not cease when there is no sensory input, or you can say no 5 senses. Because it never fails to reflect, we say it has timeless continuity yet impermanent. Because it has timeless continuity and without which nothing can be cognized, we say that it is ground reality, ground luminosity. This is the luminosity aspect (and yet I have explained part of the emptiness aspect by impermanency). Other religions' mystics who experienced this aspect may call it "God" -- often known as a permanent background where all things arise and return. In Buddhism, there is furthermore a realisation of the emptiness, and the background is not needed.
The emptiness aspect has to do with the 3 or 4 dharma seals and the truth of interdependent co-arising. -
I can ask the whole Physics and Engineering faculty in NUS and NTU and I can bet none of them can understand what nonsense you are saying.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:As far as I know most scientists and most people will understand what I said. So if you don't understand, you still need to explain what you do not understand. -
Doubt so, since I explained so clearly. Even though physics and engineering has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Don't talk about art if we are talking about maths.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I can ask the whole Physics and Engineering faculty in NUS and NTU and I can bet none of them can understand what nonsense you are saying.
(hint: in science, the closest so far is Quantum Physics. classical physics has nothing to do with spiritual since it works within the limits of the relative truth of time and space.) -
But do not forget, spiritual truths should always be verified under the spiritual domain (i.e practising and seeing for yourselves), because any other ways will be ineffective or inadequate.
Remember what Thusness said to casino_king a year ago:Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Casino_King,
It is inadequate to use rational thought to understand spiritual matters. Logic is only that branch of philosophy that deals with reasoning. It does not deal with all types of thinking such as remembering (Recalling past life included), dreaming (Dream Yoga), day dreaming, neurosis, learning..etc. These other types of thinking are the job of psychology and parapsychology.
Although evidence is needed to serve as a base for inductive and deductive reasoning, full proof evidence to arrive at a certain conclusion is not necessary in logical analysis. In daily life, not all reasoning attempts to provide conclusive evidence for the truth of a given conclusion and more often than not, conclusive evidence cannot be produced. For pragmatic ground, we merely want the evidence we arrived at be 'well founded'.
As human, sleeping and dreaming took up pretty much percentage of our life. We are not just a rational being, to understand human, we have to deal with all these matters with spiritual issues included.
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Even the guys doing Quantum Mechanics have no idea what are you saying. What you doing is like describing a singularity yet everyone knows that a singularity cannot be described as it is beyond the event horizon.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Doubt so, since I explained so clearly. Even though physics and engineering has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Don't talk about art if we are talking about maths.
(hint: in science, the closest so far is Quantum Physics. classical physics has nothing to do with spiritual since it works within the limits of the relative truth of time and space.)