meditation question
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i up til now still got a question...
meditation... our mind should be clear right?
clear our mind mean mind got nth right? isnt it same as blank?
first question: quote:
"Some Misconceptions about Meditation
Misconception #1. Meditation is turning off your thoughts or making your mind a blank." form En' in SOA on meditation
then what should be on our mind when we are meditating?
then if i thinking of something is thats still consider peace in my mind?
second question:
breathing meditation just keep thinking of the breathing part?
insight meditation is something that we have the picture/video in our mind and forget about our breathing?
sorry for disturbing you guys ahh... cus i think my question have have been post by otherr ppl also... but i jus cant find the answer...
hope expert here will tell me... i am really very keen on learning meditation... there were no reply when i post in SOA... so i decided to try here... hope someone will belighten me here
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AEN recommend me this basic guide for insight meditation:
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_12.php.
Perhaps you can post your experience more in details:
What have you really observed while meditating?
I personally have difficulties consuming all the information in the above link. A qualified meditation teacher can give u a proper guidance and answer your enquires better as they are really experienced.. Meditation is a continous discovery..
The different between breathing and insight meditation.
Insight is also a term for Vipassana meditation
Samatha ususally refering breathing meditation
Breathing meditation => one-pointedness concentration which lead to mental absorption (jhanas).Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Actually Anapanasati is not a concentration meditation.
The name 'Anapanasati' is literally, Mindfulness of Breathing, and Sati means mindfulness, awareness.
However there are two sides of practising mindfulness of breathing. If you are aware of the breathing, the sensation, the coolness and warmness, that is considered Vipassana ( insight ) side. If you note the breathing in and out, that is samatha ( breathin ). Different suttas teach anapanasati different way and has different leanings.
Insight meditation => lead to insight and awakening.
Read on mindfulness:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=193271
An article very well explained the topic on Anapanasati:
Samatha or Vipassana?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Anapana/anapana.html
Just for your information, other than sitting meditation, there are other forms of meditation such as the walking meditation.
mmm there seems to be alot of reading materials here but the meditation instruction can be simple..
Read on why bother to meditate:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226974
very nice article.. -
The way I understand it is dont think, just feel all the sensations of the air moving or touching you. There is no breathe, just the sensations.
I am too lazy to meditate. -
Hi, can you kindly quote what did En' posted? Because I cannot find the post which you mentioned.Originally posted by popikachu:i up til now still got a question...
meditation... our mind should be clear right?
clear our mind mean mind got nth right? isnt it same as blank?
first question: quote:
"Some Misconceptions about Meditation
Misconception #1. Meditation is turning off your thoughts or making your mind a blank." form En' in SOA on meditation
then what should be on our mind when we are meditating?
then if i thinking of something is thats still consider peace in my mind?
second question:
breathing meditation just keep thinking of the breathing part?
insight meditation is something that we have the picture/video in our mind and forget about our breathing?
sorry for disturbing you guys ahh... cus i think my question have have been post by otherr ppl also... but i jus cant find the answer...
hope expert here will tell me... i am really very keen on learning meditation... there were no reply when i post in SOA... so i decided to try here... hope someone will belighten me here
I cannot reply long now because I am in China... till 2/1/07. -
Hi, I'm back. I looked at that website, it is actually not wrong.Originally posted by popikachu:
No thought, no form and no attachment is the quintessence of the Sutra. But it is not annihilation. It means to be detached from all thought, form and attachment.Some Misconceptions about Meditation
Misconception #1. Meditation is turning off your thoughts or making your mind a blank.
Not True ...Inner quietness is experienced in meditation, but not by willfully turning off thoughts. Quieting the mind results naturally from:
the effectiveness of the method used... and
a force beyond our own efforts.[/quote]
In meditation we have to let go of all attachment to our sentient thoughts, but it is not necessarily through suppressing the thought.
Here is my ex-moderator's explanation of Platform Sutra, by 6th Patriarch Zen Master Hui-Neng:Originally posted by namelessness:
Good Friends, it has been the tradition of our school to take 'No Thought' as the object, 'No Form' as the basis, and 'No Attachment' as the fundamental principle. 'No Form' means to be apart from the notion of forms when in contact with forms. 'No Thought' means to be away from thought when thought arises. 'No Attachment' is the characteristic of our nature. All things - good or bad, beautiful or ugly - should be treated as void. Even in time of disputes and quarrels we should treat our intimates and our enemies alike and never think of retaliation. From thought to thought, let the past be dead. If we allow our thoughts, past, present, and future, to link up in a series, it is called confinement. If we never let our mind attach to anything from thought to thought, and there will be no confinement. This is why 'No Attachment' is taken as the fundamental principle. Good Friends, to free ourselves from all external forms is called 'No Form'. When we are in a position to do so, the nature of Dharma will be pure. This is why 'No Form' is taken as the basis.
[quote]Good Friends, to keep our mind free from defilement under all circumstances is called 'No Thought'. Our mind should stand aloof from circumstances, and allow no reaction to our mind from circumstances. But it is a great mistake to suppress our mind from all thinking; for even if we succeed in getting rid of all thoughts, and die immediately thereafter, still we shall be reincarnated elsewhere. Mark this, treaders of the Path. It is bad enough for a man to commit blunders from not knowing the meaning of the Dharma, but how much worse would it be to encourage others to follow suit? Being deluded, he sees not and in addition he blasphemes the Buddhist Canon. Therefore 'No Thought' is taken as the object.
Good Friends, let me explain more fully why we take 'No Thought' as our object. It is because there is a type of man under delusion who boasts of the realization of the Self-nature; but being carried away by circumstances, ideas rise in his mind, followed by erroneous views that are the source of all sorts of false notions and defilements. In the Self-nature, there is intrinsically nothing to be attained. To say that there is attainment, and to talk thoughtlessly on merits or demerits are erroneous views and defilements. For this reason we take 'No Thought' as the object of our School.
Good Friends, what is that should be 'No'? What is that should be 'Thought'? 'No' means to have no dualistic and all defiling conceptions. 'Thought' means to fix our mind on the true nature of Tathata, for Tathata is the quintessence of thought, and thought is the result of the activity of Tathata. It is the positive essence of Tathata - not the sense organs - which gives rise to 'thought'. Tathata bears its own attribute, and therefore it can give rise to 'thought'. Without Tathata the sense organs and the sense objects would perish immediately.
Good Friends, because it is the attribute of Tathata which gives rise to 'thought', our sense organs - in spite of their functioning in seeing, hearing, touching, knowing, etc. - need not be tainted or defiled in all circumstances, and our true nature may be 'self-manifested' all the time. Therefore the Sutra says, "Even all Dharmas can be easily distinguished, the 'First Principle' is still immovable"Here the patriarch taught us how to be away from our thought. This is difficult because it will take us many years to practice that. But after that, our thoughts would be vanished naturally. That’s how ‘No thought’ can be accomplished. So it is not wise to suppress our mind from thinking, for whatever is suppressed will definitely strike back.
We still need to distinquish things in order to survive. The key to non-duality is to find our inner An-Hsiang first, and let An-Hsiang be the only response we have to all circumstances.
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Here's another web article that explains the difference between suppressing thoughts and buddhism's 'no thought':
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
But there is something I would like to say about the article posted by En'. That article is much on hindu/new age meditation. Many non-buddhist meditations can develope strong concentration states and even lead to the development of psychic abilities but does not lead to enlightenment. I.e Buddhists generally don't do chakra meditations etc... If you are interested in meditation, I would suggest that you learn from qualified Buddhist teachers.
[b]More on No-Thought:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html
III. Also distinctive of Dogen's account of Shikantaza is that it is the practice of "without thinking" (hishiryo): which is also called no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin), the essence of Zen Enlightenment. Here we shall discuss "thinking," "not-thinking" and "without thinking."
A. THINKING (shiryo): This is our habitual tendency to stay in the mode of conceptualizing thought.
1. About "thinking" a) Noetic Attitude: positional (either affirming or negating); b) Noematic Content: conceptualized objects.
a) Noetic Attitude is positional (either affirming or negating): A subject is adopting an intentional stance toward an object and, specifically, thinking about it in either a positive or negative way: "This is an X" or "This is not an X," "Do X" or "Do not do X."
(1) Consciousness is an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object. The subject is a cognitive agent.
b) Noematic Content: X is an intentional object pointed to and conceived through our thoughts.
2. "Thinking" can be pictured as follows:
c) Aspects of "thinking":
(1) Subject-object division present: an active subject thinks an object.
(2) Non-immediacy: We do not experience the object immediately but only at a distance, as removed subjects, and only through the thoughts we have of the object.
(3) Non-fullness: We do not experience the object in its fullness or "suchness" but, rather, only as filtered through our thinking about it.
B. NOT-THINKING (fushiryo): About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: positional (only negating); (2) noematic content: thinking (as objectified).
1. Noetic attitude is positional (only negating): Subject is agent seeking to suppress its thinking.
2. Noematic content: The object is now the "second-order" object "thinking about X."
"Not-thinking" can be pictured as follows:
3. Aspects of "not-thinking": Same as for "thinking."
a) Consciousness is still an intentional-vector proceeding from a subject to the object. The subject is still functioning as agent, even if one trying to bring an end to its own agency.
C. WITHOUT THINKING (hishiryo): This is no-thought (munen; wu-nien) or no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin): pure immediacy in the fullness of things as they are.
1. About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating); (2) noematic content: pure presence of things as they are (genjokoan).
a) Noetic attitude is nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating): Consciousness is no longer an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object but is, rather, an open dynamic field in which objects present themselves.
b) Noematic content: The object is no longer an object that is the target of an intentional act but is, rather, the object itself as it presents itself within the open dynamic field of consciousness.
c) Aspects of "without thinking":
(1) No subject-object distinction: The subject has disappeared—this being the Zen interpretation of Buddhist anatta or no-mind.
(2) Immediacy: Without a subject standing back, the experience is one of immediacy within the dynamic field of consciousness.
(3) Fullness: Because the object is not filtered through an intentional act, it presents itself in its fullness.
(4) Such immediacy and fullness are genjokoan, "pure presence of things as they are."
It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.
It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.
The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.
Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity. (source)[/b] -
But to give you a short answer regarding "breathing meditation just keep thinking of the breathing part? insight meditation is something that we have the picture/video in our mind and forget about our breathing?"
Meditation isn't about thinking, and there are two sides of the meditation of Anapanasati, or mindfulness of breathing. The two sides of anapanasati are samatha and vipassana. Samatha means concentration on a concept of the meditation object, developing one pointedness of the mind as a result. Samatha meditation is not only anapanasati, there are really uncountable objects that can be used as an object for samatha just that anapanasati is a more common one. The practise of Samatha leads to the 8 samatha jhanas, development of concentration, which may serve as a foundation for further insight/vipassana practices, and samatha may even lead to the development of supernatural abilities. However samatha practise itself cannot lead to insights and enlightenment.
To develope insight we have to practise insight practices. Vipassana means to investigate, be aware of the reality of the meditation object, or even if it is not any particular objects but choiceless awareness. So lets say you practise mindfulness of breathing, you are completely aware of the sensation of the breathe - hard or soft; liquidity or cohesion; hot or cold; movement or vibration. It is not a mental knowing, but just the awareness, the pure sensation itself. You zoom into the minutest details of the sensation of the breath.
I will describe briefly elaborate the difference between these two approaches of Breathing meditation in Buddhism and what each approach leads to.http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Anapana/anapana.html
Again I suggest that you find a qualified and highly enlightened teacher to guide you and give you advise on how to practise. Another thing is we must understand that Buddhist practise is not just limited to sitting meditation... we must bring this meditative state into our daily lives as well. Every moment can be meditation.
(excerpt)
Respiration Meditation
Then as to respiration meditation (anapanasati), in the Visuddhimagga it is mentioned as samatha meditation, concentration meditation. In the Mahasatipatthana Sutta it is mentioned as vipassana meditation. Then how can we distinguish it between the vipassana aspect of respiration and the samatha aspect of respiration? If we are mindful of the absolute reality of respiration, that will be vipassana meditation. If we are mindful of the concept regarding respiration, then it will be samatha meditation.
So the Visuddhimagga mentions the method of concentrating on the touching sensation whenever you breathe in and breathe out. When you concentrate your mind on the coming in and going out of the breath, then it is samatha meditation because you have to concentrate on the coming in and going out, not on the wind or air. When it is coming in you note ‘in’; when it is going out you note, ‘out’. ‘In, out, in, out’. Your mind is not on the breathing air but on the ‘coming-in’ and the ‘going-out’. ‘Coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ are not ultimate realities.
Say you come into the room through the door and go out of the room through the door. We may ask, “What is this coming in and going out?” it is neither you, nor a person. It is just ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out.’ It is just concept. In the same way, when you concentrate on the coming in and going out of the breath, it is just a concept. Since concept is the object of meditation, it is samatha meditation. You cannot realise any specific characteristics or general characteristics of ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ because they are not realities, just concepts, so that’s samatha meditation.
However, if you focus your mind on the point where the breath touches whenever it comes in or goes out, it touches the nostrils. When you observe this touching sensation and are mindful of it, then it is (ultimate) reality. That touching point is composed of the four primary material elements: pathavī dhatu, hard or soft; apo dhatu, liquidity or cohesion; tejo dhatu, hot or cold; vayo dhatu, movement or vibration. These four elements are there whenever you focus your mind on the touching sensation. So the object is absolute reality. What can we call it — samatha or vipassana meditation? It is vipassana.
That is what the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw wrote about the distinction between the samatha and vipassana aspects of respiration meditation. I appreciate it very much. So then we can say respiration meditation is vipassana meditation in accordance with the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. We can also say that respiration meditation is samatha in accordance with the Visuddhimagga. It is very subtle and profound to differentiate between these two aspects of respiration meditation, but I think those who have practised meditation very well can differentiate between these two aspects. -
Meditation is the psychological approach to mental culture, training and purification.
In place of prayer, Buddhist practise meditation for mental culture and for spiritual development. No one can attain Nibbana or salvation without developing the mind through meditation. Any amount of meritorious deeds alone will not lead a person to attain the final goal without the corresponding mental purification. Naturally, the untrained mind is very elusive and persuades people to commit evil and become slaves of the senses. Imagination and emotions always mislead man if his mind is not properly trained. One who knows how to practise meditation will be able to control one's mind when it is misled by the senses.
Most of the troubles which we are confronting today are due to the untrained and uncultured mind. It is already established that meditation is the remedy for many physical and mental sickness. Medical authorities and great psychologists the world over say that mental frustration, worries, miseries, anxieties, tension and fear are the causes of many diseases, stomach ulcers, gastritis, nervous complaints and mental sickness. And even latent sickness will be aggravated through such mental conditions.
When the conscious 'I' frets too much, worries too much, or grieves too long and too intensely, then troubles develop in the body. Gastric ulcers, tuberculosis, coronary diseases and a host of functional disorders are the products of mental and emotional imbalance. In the case of children, the decay of the teeth and defective eye-sight are frequently related to emotional disorders. -
Many of these sicknesses and disorders can be avoided if people could spend a few minutes a day to calm their senses through the practice of mediation. Many people do not believe this or are too lazy to practise meditation owing to lack of understanding. Some people say that mediation is only a waste of time. We must remember that every spiritual master in this world attained the highest point of his life through the practice of meditation. They are honored today by millions of people because they have done tremendous service to mankind with their supreme knowledge and patience which they obtained through the practice of meditation.
Meditation should not be a task to which we force ourselves 'with gritted teeth and clenched fists'; it should rather be something that draws us, because it fills us with joy and inspiration. So long as we have to force ourselves, we are not yet ready for meditation. Instead of meditating we are violating our true nature. Instead of relaxing and letting go, we are holding on to our ego, to our will power. In this way meditation becomes a game of ambition, of personal achievement and aggrandizement. Meditation is like love: a spontaneous experience?not something that can be forced or acquired by strenuous effort.
Therefore Buddhist mediation has no other purpose than to bring the mind back into the present, into the state of fully awakened consciousness, by clearing it from all obstacles that have been created by habit or tradition.
The Buddha obtained His Enlightenment through the development of His mind. He did not seek divine power to help Him. He gained His wisdom through self-effort by practising meditation. To have a healthy body and mind and to have peace in life, one must learn how to practise meditation. -
Nature of Modern Life
Today we are living in a world where people have to work very hard physically and mentally. Without hard work, there is no place for people in the modern society. Very often keen competition is going on everywhere. One is trying to beat the other in every sphere of life and man has no rest at all. Mind is the nucleus of life. When there is no real peace and rest in the mind, the whole life will collapse. People naturally try to overcome their miseries through pleasing the senses: they drink, gamble, sing and dance?all the time having the illusion that they are enjoying he real happiness of life. Sense stimulation is not the real way to have relaxation. The more we try to please the senses through sensual pleasures, the more will we become slaves to the senses. There will be no end to our craving for satisfaction. The real way to relax is to calm the senses by the control of mind. If we can control the mind, then we will be able to control everything. When the mind is free from mental disturbances it can see many things which others cannot see with their naked eyes. Ultimately, we will be able to attain our salvation and find peace and happiness.
To practise meditation, one must have strong determination, effort and patience. Immediate results cannot be expected. We must remember that it takes many years for a person to be qualified as a doctor, lawyer, mathematician, philosopher, historian or a scientist. Similarly to be a good meditator, it will take sometime for the person to control the elusive mind and to calm the senses. Practising meditation is like swimming in a river against the current. Therefore one must not lose patience for not being able to obtain rapid results. At the same time the meditator must also cultivate his morality. A congenial place for meditation is another important aspect. The meditator must have an object for his meditation, for without an object the jumping mind is not easy to trap. The object must not create lust, anger, delusion, and emotion in the meditator's mind.
When we start to meditate, we switch the mind from the old imaginative way of thinking, or habitual thought into a new unimpeded or unusual way of thinking. While meditating when we breathe in mindfully, we absorb cosmic energy. When we breathe out mindfully with Metta?loving kindness, we purify the atmosphere. Intellect is necessary for the overcoming of emotionality and spiritual confusion as intuition is necessary for overcoming intellectual limitation and conceptual abstraction.
We spend most of our time on our body: to feed it, to clothe it, to cleanse it, to wash it, to beautify it, to relax it, but how much time do we spend on our mind for the same purposes?
Some people take the Buddha Image as an object and concentrate on it. Some concentrate on inhaling and exhaling. Whatever may be the method, if anyone tries to practise meditation, he is sure to find relaxation. Meditation will help him a great deal to have physical and mental health and to control the mind when it is necessary.
Man can do the highest service to the society by simply abstaining from evils. The cultured mind that is developed through meditation performs a most useful service to others. Meditation is not simply a waste of man's valuable time. The advanced mind of a meditator can solve so many human problems and is very useful to enlighten others. Meditation is very useful to help a person live peacefully despite various disturbances that are so prevalent in this modern world. We cannot be expected to retire to a jungle or forest to live in ivory towers?'far from the madding crowd'. By practising right meditation we can have an abode for temporary oblivion. Meditation has the purpose of training a person to face, understand and conquer this very world in which we live. Meditation teaches us to adjust ourselves to bear with the numerous obstacles to life in the modern world. -
Some people practise meditation in order to satisfy their material desires; they want to further their material gains. They want to use meditation to get better jobs. They want to earn more money or to operate their business more efficiently. Perhaps they fail to understand that the aim of meditation is not to increase but to decrease desires. Materialistic motives are hardly suitable for proper meditation, the goal of which lies beyond worldly affairs. One should meditate to try to attain something that even money cannot buy or bring.
If you practice meditation, you can learn to behave like a gentleman even though you are disturbed by others. Through meditation you can learn how to relax the body and to calm the mind; you can learn to be tranquil and happy within.
Just as an engine gets overheated and damaged when it is run for a prolonged period and requires cooling down to overcome this, so also the mind gets overtaxed when we subject it to a sustained degree of mental effort and it is only through meditation that relaxation or cooling can be achieved. Meditation strengthens the mind to control human emotion when it is disturbed by negative thoughts and feelings such as jealousy, anger, pride and envy.
If you practise meditation, you can learn to make the proper decision when you are at a cross-roads in life and are at a loss as to which way to turn. These qualities cannot be purchased from anywhere. No amount of money or property can buy these qualities, yet you attain them through meditation. And finally the ultimate object of Buddhist meditation is to eradicate all defilements from the mind and to attain the final goal--Nibbana.
Nowadays, however, the practice of meditation has been abused by people. They want immediate and quick results, just as they expect quick returns for everything they do in daily life. In Buddhism, as is the case with other eastern cultures, patience is a most important quality. The mind must be brought under control in slow degrees and one should not try to reach for the higher states without proper training. We have heard of over-enthusiastic young men and women literally going out of their minds because they adopted the wrong attitudes towards meditation. Meditation is a gentle way of conquering the defilements which pollute the mind. If people want 'success' or 'achievement' to boast to others that they have attained this or that level of meditation, they are abusing the method of mental culture. One must be trained in morality and one must clearly understand that to be successful in the discipline of meditation worldly achievement must not be equated with spiritual development. Ideally, it is good to work under an experienced teacher who will help his student to develop along the right path. But above all one must never be in a hurry to achieve too much too quickly. -
Yo guys. I'm new to Buddhism actually. For as i know, there are many different types of meditation in Buddhism. Currently I'm using Zen meditation. It's really very enjoyable as results show that meditating at night before sleep can really improve a person's concentration. Before i start to meditate, i would lit some sandalwood incense that I've bought it at a Dharma chanting session. The company is called Mtmeru Pte Ltd. The sandalwood is from India! Heard from the salesman that it can improves one concentration when meditating. Oh yeah and they have a website. Visit www.mtmeru.com
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I've found a wonderful definition of Vipasyana (Insight) Practise by Kalu Rinpoche from the "Luminous Mind" from another forum:
"When the mind abides in its natural state, its profound nature can gradually reveal itself, and all its qualities are uncovered. This is Vipassyana practise... Vipassyana...is to see clearly, to have insight into mind's nature and clear vision of its basic state.
...there are differences between the approaches of Shamatha and Vipassyana. Shamatha uses an object or reference, although a subtle one, upon which the mind meditates; a dualistic relationship is estblished between the mind and its object. In Vipassyana, however, mind and object are essentially one, not two, and remain this way.
...In Vipassyana, many thoughts go through the mind, but they are niether suppressed or followed. They arise and pass away without our having to interfere..Vipassyana...consists of letting go of thoughts, letting them be pacified and liberated by them selves..."
He mentions to always verify these experiences with a qualified teacher, to prevent from going astray. -
Some more about the difference between Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight):
...There is a lot of confusion on the differences between concentration practices and insight practices. This may be caused in part by the “Mushroom Factor,” or may be due in part to other factors, such as concentration practice being easier than insight practices and distinctly more pleasant most of the time. Concentration practices (samatha or samadhi practices) are meditation on a concept, an aggregate of many transient sensations, whereas insight practice is meditation on the many transient sensations just as they are. When doing concentration practices, one purposefully tries to fix or freeze the mind in a specific state, called an “absorption,” “jhana” or “dyana.” While reality cannot be frozen in this way, the illusion of solidity and stability certainly can be cultivated, and this is concentration practice.
Insight practices are designed to penetrate the Three Illusions of permanence, satisfactoriness and separate self so as to attain freedom. (N.B., the illusion of satisfactoriness has to do with the false sense that continuing to mentally create the illusion of a separate, permanent self will be satisfactory or helpful, and is not referring to some oppressive and fun-denying angst trip). Insight practices (various types of vipassana, dzogchen, zazen, etc.) lead to the progressive stages of the progress of insight. Insight practices tend to be difficult and somewhat disconcerting, as they are designed to deconstruct our deluded and much cherished views of the world and ourselves, though they can sometimes be outrageously blissful for frustratingly short periods....
~ Dharma Dan -
1 - so this is samatha right? then is it possible to combine both samatha and vipassana together as samatha is the "in and out" while vipassana is the 4 element right?
The practise of Samatha leads to the 8 samatha jhanas, development of concentration, which may serve as a foundation for further insight/vipassana practices, and samatha may even lead to the development of supernatural abilities.
When you concentrate your mind on the coming in and going out of the breath, then it is samatha meditation because you have to concentrate on the coming in and going out, not on the wind or air. When it is coming in you note ‘in’; when it is going out you note, ‘out’. ‘In, out, in, out’. Your mind is not on the breathing air but on the ‘coming-in’ and the ‘going-out’. ‘Coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ are not ultimate realities.
2 - about the 4 element, how to used it or what i mean is what is it? "hard or soft, liquidity or cohesion, hot or cold, movement or vibration" feel our breath then answer this 4 elemt which is which? -
Originally posted by popikachu:
Yes, since the mind concentrates on "coming in" and "going out" which is merely a mental concept, it is Shamatha. It is not about penetrating ultimate reality (i.e the 3 dharma seals) or the luminosity aspect of the sensate reality. It has not transcended the content of the thought, which is relative truth, not ultimate truth.
1 - so this is samatha right? then is it possible to combine both samatha and vipassana together as samatha is the "in and out" while vipassana is the 4 element right?
It is not really possible to combine shamatha and vipassana practise in the conventional sense if you mean one is concentrating on a concept and the other is penetrating the ultimate reality, yet on the other hand it is possible to cultivate insight and calmness at the same time.
Notes: Zhi = Shamatha, Guan = Vipassana/Vipashyana:
In this explanation, Samatha means stopping/detaching our sentient thoughts, means detaching from the contents of our sentient thoughts. Vipashyana means seeing the nature of our mind, which is as explained above. In this sense, if you practise meditation/detachment from all thought content, yet being in tact with ultimate reality, then samatha and vipassana is combined, however, it is not the shamatha that leads to shamatha jhanas. Generally speaking I believe Theravada is the tradition that has more emphasize on developing the 8 shamatha jhanas.
The necessity of both samatha and vipassana is obvious from the following suttas:
Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.170: In this sutta, Venerable Ananda says that monks and nuns who informed him that they had attained arahantship all declared that they did so by one of the four categories, i.e. there are only these four ways to arahantship:
o Samatha followed by vipassana - after which the path is born in him/herr,
o Vipassana followed by samatha[31] - after which the path is born in him/herr,
o Samatha and vipassana together, simultaneously - after which the path is born in him/her, and
o The mind stands fixed internally (i.e. on the cognizant consciousness or 'self') until it becomes one-pointed[32] - after which the path is born in him/her.
I thought of another explanation of practising samatha and vipassana at the same time, that is, at the level of one of the 8 samatha jhana, one switches to investigating the true nature of the jhanic state, which vipassana.
Anyway I am not very sure about this myself and would appreciate any comments.2 - about the 4 element, how to used it or what i mean is what is it? "hard or soft, liquidity or cohesion, hot or cold, movement or vibration" feel our breath then answer this 4 elemt which is which?
The key is the awareness of the sensation. When there is awareness of the sensation, all the 4 factors will be sensed. It is not a "mental knowing", you don't have to analyse and label the breathing and think whether it is hot or cold, hard or soft, whether it is moving or not moving. Rather, sense it to the minutest detail - the coldness, the hotness, whatever characteristic that is in the air will be felt if you just be aware.
Lastly, it is not so much of "awareness" of "sensation" because if I said this, this sounds dualistic, as if there is a "self" or "awareness" in here seperate from an "object" (which is again conceptual) out there... this is dualistic consciousness and therefore it is not Vipashyana (I have posted something about this in the previous post). Rather, there is nothing apart from the arising and ceasing, and no dualistic relation is assumed in Insight practise. Thusness said, No watcher needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga. Like a famous Zen Master said when he got enlightened, "When I heard the bell ring, suddenly there was no 'I' and no 'bell,' just the ringing."
This conversation took place more than a year ago:
[22:37] so far what do u understand about awareness?
[22:38] hmm like u say lor... awareness is never lost
[22:39] what is awareness right now?
[22:39] when u say thought arises, is thought awareness?
[22:41] thought is not awareness, but there is awareness of thought
[22:41] lol
[22:41] so what is thought?
[22:42] and where is awareness?
[22:42] same like taste, is the taste awareness?
[22:45] i think u cant define awareness to a 'thing'
[22:45] so is taste or thought a thing?
[22:47] u practice meditation now right?
[22:47]
[22:47] never practise for quite some time
[22:47] taste or thought is not a thing
[22:47] lol
[22:49] so do u think awareness is a party behind thinking thought or experiencing taste?
[22:49]
[22:49] lol
[22:49] no
[22:49] taste is not a thing, then what is it?
[22:50] just the awareness
[22:50] lol
[22:50] experience this awareness with totality.