what if
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Erm, what you experienced doesn't sound like what wiki said at all. Sounds like hallucination of psychiatric illnessOriginally posted by Eric Cartman:I looked up wiki and it says The five hindrances have completely disappeared and intense unified bliss remains. Only the subtlest of mental movement remains - perceiveable in its absence by those who have entered the second Jhāna. The ability to form unwholesome intentions cease.
Yeah thats what I got because I looked at all the lines on my palm all at once, then concentrated and other things ceased before I could see something coming out of my hand
I'm going to quote what Buddha said about the first jhana:[First jhana]
During first jhana, there is withdrawal from sensual attachment, one pointedness absorption, and very strong bodily rupture. The bliss spreads throughout body. (remember I mentioned my experience of intense bliss spreading throughout the body in wave-like movement?) The whole body is in a state of bliss. Physical rupture is the strong character in First Jhana, and in higher jhana physical rupture turns more to mental rupture, then to equanimity, etc. A different form of bliss.
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.
"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...
So don't anyhow say you attain this or that jhana. -
No, it means our pure awareness. When visualised, this awareness seems to be 'bright', 'luminous'. That's why we hear about things like clear-light nature, or 'jue zhao guang ming'.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Does luminousity mean brightness or what. -
And does rupture mean burst?
All I knew was that I was very clever when I was little. -
What happens if you dont visualize it?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No, it means our pure awareness. When visualised, this awareness seems to be 'bright', 'luminous'. That's why we hear about things like clear-light nature, or 'jue zhao guang ming'. -
Wah lao... even child prodigies aren't very rare lah. I'm sure you know and obviously, enlightenment has little to do with whether you are clever.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:And does rupture mean burst?
All I knew was that I was very clever when I was little.
Some very stupid people can become enlightened as well. There was a disciple of Buddha who is very stupid. He couldn't understand the teachings and cannot even memorise a simple dharma verse to contemplate on. Then the Buddha taught him to keep chanting "broom" (something like that), he attained Arhatship. -
Not about what happens. Just that when expressed verbally, luminous is an appropriate description.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:What happens if you dont visualize it? -
Anyway just a note to confused readers: jhana stages (samatha) that are discussed above are not stages of enlightenment.
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During first jhana, there is withdrawal from sensual attachment, one pointedness absorption, and very strong bodily rupture. The bliss spreads throughout body. (remember I mentioned my experience of intense bliss spreading throughout the body in wave-like movement?) The whole body is in a state of bliss. Physical rupture is the strong character in First Jhana, and in higher jhana physical rupture turns more to mental rupture, then to equanimity, etc. A different form of bliss.
sensual attachment - Yes I had no sensual attachment when I was little
One pointed absorption - yup I was absorbed in my palm.
Bliss thuout body - I think I had that too. -
Originally posted by Eric Cartman:
You sure? Any slightest attachment to the 5 sense objects is called sensual attachment. Maybe you were attached, but you were not aware, or you have forgotten after some time.
sensual attachment - Yes I had no sensual attachment when I was littleOne pointed absorption - yup I was absorbed in my palm.
A few moments of concentration is not the same as attaining absorption.Bliss thuout body - I think I had that too.[/b]
If 'you think' only then it cannot be. The rupture is so intense that it will leave you without doubt that you did experience bodily rupture. It might just be the most amazing experience you ever had in your life if you are a beginner in meditation. -
what the hell is body rupture??Originally posted by An Eternal Now:If 'you think' only then it cannot be. The rupture is so intense that it will leave you without doubt that you deed experience bodily rupture. It might just be the most amazing experience you ever had in your life if you are a beginner in meditation. -
Rupture = piti:Originally posted by Eric Cartman:what the hell is body rupture??Five kinds of delightful satisfaction piti:
A note: I believe jhana ruptures have to do with 3~5 (i think particularly 5) sort of rupture, because ruptures 1~2 can be experienced as only fleeting and short moments.
1. The thrill of joy and delightful satisfaction of low intensity which makes the flesh tingle or creep:khuddaka piti;
2. Instantaneous joy like a flash of lightning (of delightful satisfaction): khanika piti;
3. A surge of delightful satisfaction or flood of joy like surf breaking on the shore; okkantika piti;
4. Delightful satisfaction which transports and enables one to float in the air like a wisp of cotton, ubbega piti; and
5. Intense delightful satisfaction which suffuses the whole body for a long time, or like a flood overflowing small tanks and ponds: pharana piti. -
Dharma Dan said something similar which proves that stupid people can be enlightened as well:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Wah lao... even child prodigies aren't very rare lah. I'm sure you know and obviously, enlightenment has little to do with whether you are clever.
Some very stupid people can become enlightened as well. There was a disciple of Buddha who is very stupid. He couldn't understand the teachings and cannot even memorise a simple dharma verse to contemplate on. Then the Buddha taught him to keep chanting "broom" (something like that), he attained Arhatship....That night the abbot played a tape of a man describing the stages of insight. It blew my mind, as he described exactly what I had gone through in the previous 13 days. I could clearly see how the stages he was describing had unfolded, exactly where I was and what I had to do. I was also astounded that the path could be so reproducible and straightforward, that I could just follow moronically simple instructions and have it all happen. Those who want to get lost in the reaction, “No, it isn’t so simple. Awakening is a great and intractable mystery! You are lying! It mustn’t be so!” should take a few moments to seriously question exactly how this disempowering and inaccurate view helps them feel good about themselves. They should then take a few moments to find another, more empowering view that helps them feel good about themselves, step up to the plate, and hit a home run...
~ Dharma Dan -
oh well what if I was in a rupture all the time without even having to do formal meditationOriginally posted by An Eternal Now: -
Dharma Dan said something similar which proves that stupid people can be enlightened as well:
That proves that me or other people could very well have been enlightened without all these.
Would you call a person with awareness clever? -
That is impossible. Be honest with yourself and others. I believe outside jhanas you can experience rupture 1~2, but not 3~5. Rupture 1~2 is only fleeting ruptures, cannot be jhana/absorption.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:oh well what if I was in a rupture all the time without even having to do formal meditation -
1) Without all what?Originally posted by Eric Cartman:That proves that me or other people could very well have been enlightened without all these.
Would you call a person with awareness clever?
2) A person with 'awareness'* knows ultimate reality. He is liberated and free. He may not necessarily be very intelligent in mundane things, but generally enlightened people are much more mature and wise than normal people. Especially, if you are a bodhisattva you will gain wisdom (both aspects) superior than that of an arhat, and you will know how to save sentient beings with skillful means.
*note: it is not refering to luminosity or pure awareness as I mentioned above. more of refering to trasnscendental knowledge. -
so why dont you talk about the pure awareness thenOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:1) Without all what?
2) A person with 'awareness'* knows ultimate reality. He is liberated and free. He may not necessarily be very intelligent in mundane things, but generally enlightened people are much more mature and wise than normal people. Especially, if you are a bodhisattva you will gain wisdom (both aspects) superior than that of an arhat, and you will know how to save sentient beings with skillful means.
*note: it is not refering to luminosity or pure awareness as I mentioned above. more of refering to trasnscendental knowledge. -
Because it doesn't mean sense saying "a person with pure awareness".Originally posted by Eric Cartman:so why dont you talk about the pure awareness then
Everyone "HAS" Buddha Nature, or rather, Buddha Nature is the ever-present reality just that we didn't realise it. -
"have awareness" as in knowing whats going on and everything under control.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Because it doesn't mean sense saying "a person with pure awareness".
Everyone "HAS" Buddha Nature, or rather, Buddha Nature is the reality all the time just that we didn't realise it. -
Mindful?Originally posted by Eric Cartman:"have awareness" as in knowing whats going on and everything under control.
Mindfulness can lead to development of wisdom, but not necessarily cleverness. Some people's logic ability, IQ, and amount of knowledge is higher than others. Mindfulness may not help much. -
yeah so I have wisdom.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Mindful?
Mindfulness can lead to development of wisdom, but not necessarily cleverness. Some people's logic ability, IQ, and amount of knowledge is higher than others. Mindfulness may not help much. -
Anyway just a note, enlightenment is beyond all mental perceptions and knowledge. Don't have the idea that you will gain some special knowledge in the form of mental perception and knowledge.. all these have to be let go of, released before you can enter into the realm of emptiness. Reality cannot be found on the level of mental knowledge and perception. Don't try to attain something special, like supernatural powers, or etc. That's why Zen Master Seung Sahn always says, "I hope you only go straight - don't know, get Enlightenment, and save all beings from suffering." Like Dharma Dan say, all you have to "do" is just follow the dharma, practise moronically and get enlightened.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:That proves that me or other people could very well have been enlightened without all these.
Would you call a person with awareness clever?According to Lao Tzu, the greatest calamity is in having a body, thus he teaches the way of extinguishing the body* to attain the realm of wu or non-being. Moreover, the greatest cause that burdens the body is in having knowledge, thus he teaches the way of abandoning knowledge to enter the realm of hsu or emptiness.
* extinguishing attachment to body, not suicide -
Don't think you are mindful enough yet. Even if you truly think you are, continue to practise hard to enlightenment.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:yeah so I have wisdom. -
That's why Zen Master Seung Sahn always says, "I hope you only go straight - don't know, get Enlightenment, and save all beings from suffering." Like Dharma Dan say, all you have to "do" is just follow the dharma, practise moronically and get enlightened.
That sounds like turning into a zombie and turning everyone else into a zombie. -
Zombies are ignorant and scary.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:That sounds like turning into a zombie and turning everyone else into a zombie.
"Only go straight" means being down-to-earth, sincere in practising and not having too much of your own attachment and obsessed with your neurotic stuff.