Buddhism's Stance on Abortion
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Moved from: Not discussing faults of othersOriginally posted by livspore2006:Sorry, it may be off-topic here in this thread but would like to understand what is Buddhism's stand in abortion?
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Here is an article I posted about 2 years ago, Abortion
IMHO and scriptually speaking, Abortion is un-buddhist. Has anyone seen the procedure of abortion? It is very cruel and and images are so gruesome.
They use a loop shaped steel knife to slice the baby in parts (the hands, limbs, the body etc) and later take the dead baby out. It's the most horrible medical procedure on Earth and I've seen it on video tape. And in the Video, it is said that modern equipments detected that even the 1st stage (1~3 months) the baby could move and have heart beat, which means that it is definitely sentient.
Even if the child is of low mental capability, or have some organ defects/etc, it is a karma and responsibility that the parents must take even though it takes a lot of courage. More so are those whose babies are healthy! At most, give the baby away for adoption (which is only last-resort). I'm sure there are many people out there who have trouble making babies and are looking forward to adopt a child!
I would like to share a with you a true story which was told by a Venerable. There was a Venerable who had the powers to know a person's previous existence. There was a couple who had a child with low mental capabilities and they asked the venerable why was that so. The Venerable answered - that child of yours was a drug lord in the previous life and has caused much mental delusions and intoxications to others, and therefore that was his karma. The parents then asked abruptly, if that was the case then why were they affected too? (to have the responsibility to take care of that child). The Venerable continued, "let me finish explaining. You two were his accomplice in selling the drugs while he was the mastermind and therefore it was your karmic consequence for having him as your child." Therefore I think whatever child was borned, that was his karma, by karmic association. He should accept it, give extra love and patience to bringing up their child.
The abortion rates are simply unacceptable. I can't imagine myself being one of the babies subject to the cruel and torturous abortion procedures.
Those who had abortions, there are a few suggestions by Buddhist Venerables for karmic clearance: Do daily repentance*, help promote anti-killing, anti-abortion, through any means, and transference of merits (accumulated throughout one's entire life) to the deceased foetus.
I would encourage people to know more about abortion -
those who are not weak hearted can watch the whole abortion procedure (Warning: very gruesome images!): http://old.abortionno.org/realaudio/hrdtruthdsl.rm
less gruesome alternative which explains accurately the abortion procedures, etc ~ "Pro Life Doctor Speaks Out"
http://www.abortiontv.com/Movies/ProLifeDoctorsSpeakOut.htm - information about the video
working video links (outdated links on that page):
http://old.abortionno.org/realaudio/hrdtruthdsl.rm
http://old.abortionno.org/realaudio/hrdtruthdsl.rm
*Repentance verses:
All the evil karma that I have committed in the past,
Arising from my aeons of greed, anger and ignorance,
Committed by my body, speech and mind,
Now I repent before the Buddha.
Ideally for repentance practise is to chant 108 times, each time bowing down to the Buddha. -
In Buddhism, the unborn baby has consciousness and to abort is similar to killing the baby. Therefore in Buddhism, abortion should be avoided to the best of our abilities and if we choose to abort due to circumstances we still have to be aware or and understand that there are karmic consequences following our descision and do our best to help the aborted child (i.e dedicating one whole life's merits to the aborted child, repentance, etc etc as listed above)
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol4no4d.htm
8. Abortion is legal in some countries. Does Jen Chen Buddhism support abortion? What are the retributions from the karma of abortion?
Jen Chen Buddhism advocates contraception, not abortion.
Jen Chen Buddhism advocates the observance of the Five Precepts: to abstain from (1) killing, (2) stealing, (3) sexual misconduct, (4) false speech and (5) consumption of all kinds of intoxicants. To abstain from killing is the first precept and that means to avoid taking the life away from any living beings. All killings are sinful, especially the killing of human beings since they are of the highest order amongst all living things on earth. As viviparous animals, the human embryo is considered a human being. Therefore, one who has aborted a foetus has committed an act of killing.
Jen Chen Buddhism absolutely does not support abortion because it is an act of killing. The retribution of killing is to suffer in hell. Moreover, the consciousness of the foetus whom has been deprived of his birth and caused to suffer in his killing, will be engulfed in hatred and anger. Thus, the collective negative karma of killing will lead to a common retribution, resulting in calamities among humanity.
Jen Chen Buddhism hopes that humanity accepts contraception and objects to abortion. It is in this way that humanity can have happiness and bliss.http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no2e.htm
6. Is abortion an act of killing?
It is the killing of one's own flesh and blood.
Abortion is not only an act of killing, it is the taking of a human life. Moreover, it is not only taking a human life, but the killing of one's own flesh and blood. -
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In Buddhism, when does consciousness begin? At the point of conception or when the foetus starts to develop and grow?
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begin ? there is no beginningOriginally posted by livspore2006:In Buddhism, when does consciousness begin? At the point of conception or when the foetus starts to develop and grow?
life is a continuation before and before and will continue in the future and future aeons
only by liberating from samsara will one end this continuous suffering of rebirth
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I think Livspore is asking about consciousness as in consciousness in this particular rebirth/ life... I am conscious of my existence now, just as I was conscious back when I was 3 years old... I believe I even retain a scrape of memory and consciousness when I was still an infant (though kinda hazy). But at which point do I start to have consciousness of this life?Originally posted by bohiruci:begin ? there is no beginning
life is a continuation before and before and will continue in the future and future aeons
only by liberating from samsara will one end this continuous suffering of rebirth
When my wife was pregnant with our first kid. Her gynaecologist did routine ultrasound scans... That was when I 'see' my first born daughter for the first time; a tadpole-like thing measuring perhaps 2 cm, and complete with a heartbeat to boot. I remembered very clearly that the specialist gynaecologist told us that even foetuses of this size can start to dream.... In other words, a foetus 2 cm long can start to have consciousness.
I also read from some Buddhist works that the consciousness (the ongoing one, the one that we need to liberate from samsara) gets inplanted into a newly formed foetus as soon as it is formed... -
At the moment of conception..Originally posted by livspore2006:In Buddhism, when does consciousness begin? At the point of conception or when the foetus starts to develop and grow? -
yes, agreed with AEN. we both did a discussion/research on it sometime ago, but now i'm not able to find the link which was in chinese though.
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ok, found this link.
Karma and Rebirth:1. Reproductive Kamma (Janaka Kamma)
http://www.kmspks.org/activities/bbc/bbc7.htm
Janaka Kamma is that which produces mental aggregates and material aggregates at the moment of conception. The initial consciousness which is termed the patisandhi vinnana (rebirth-consciousness) is conditioned by this Janaka Kamma. Simultaneous with the arising of the rebirth-consciousness there arise the ‘body-decad’, ‘sex-decad’ and ‘base-decad’ (kaya-bhava-vatthu dasaka).
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I think there is a linguistic failure to communicate in this thread.
First off, which mother will deprive herself of her own child?
There must be not much choice left when a mother decides to terminate the life of her unborn child. The most obvious reason being the health of both the parent and child will be affected. The other would probably be unable to care for the child as required as the child will have special needs in terms of disablity.
Of course, we must analyse the other end of the spectrum. A mother who doesn't care about the unborn child as the conception is not intended ought to know about the consequences of her choice in coitus. I believe this thread is more intended for the unintended mothers.
A medical practitioner, such as Oxford Mushroom, may further point out that doctors usually practice abortions so as to uphold the hippocratic oath. So any claims that abortionists are murderers is pure nonsensical conjecture. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
I have already explained. We do not have the rights to take away a person's life even though the parents may have trouble taking care of the child (i.e if due to pre-marital sex, etc). Like I explained the other choice is to give the child for adoption etc but to take care of the child themselves should be preferred. But abortion is to be avoided in such cases.
I think there is a linguistic failure to communicate in this thread.
First off, which mother will deprive herself of her own child?
There must be not much choice left when a mother decides to terminate the life of her unborn child. The most obvious reason being the health of both the parent and child will be affected. The other would probably be unable to care for the child as required as the child will have special needs in terms of disablity.
Of course, we must analyse the other end of the spectrum. A mother who doesn't care about the unborn child as the conception is not intended ought to know about the consequences of her choice in coitus. I believe this thread is more intended for the unintended mothers.
Secondly, in regards to health reasons, like I have mentioned in the previous post lets say the child has low IQ or intellect, but nevertheless we should understand that the child came due to his and our karma, we must accept this as part of clearing his and our karma, and practise extra love and patience. We should not simply kill a child just because he has something lacking of an ordinary child.
Thirdly if the child poses a danger to the mother's life or in certain circumstances that abortion is to be taken it should be understood that there are karmic consequences for aborting the child and one must take the necessary steps as a Buddhist to clear our karma and help the aborted child (as explained in the previous post).A medical practitioner, such as Oxford Mushroom, may further point out that doctors usually practice abortions so as to uphold the hippocratic oath. So any claims that abortionists are murderers is pure nonsensical conjecture.
Hippocratic oath has to do with not practising abortion.. I do not understand what you mean.
...One need not be a Christian or even a believer in God to KNOW that taking an innocent human life is wrong. The Hippocratic Oath, from the 4th century B.C., declares: "...Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion." Until recently, this oath was taken by every physician as he entered his practice. Sadly, this is no longer the case. After 6000 years of keeping inviolate a human life in the womb, our "modern" society has decided that some lives are more important than others. We have lost our moorings.. -
Thanks an eternal now for the true story on abortion , that helps answer alot of suspicion that i have ony my mind for a few years already ..... Think thats enough for me .
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I really wonder who has lost his or her mental bearings, AEN or me? As I said before, it's the final and last resort that an abortion is considered as a solution. However, AEN just generalised that abortions are totally unnecessary even in extreme cases or emergencies. In fact, AEN considers abortions in such cases as generating negative karma.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:quote:
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
I think there is a linguistic failure to communicate in this thread.
First off, which mother will deprive herself of her own child?
There must be not much choice left when a mother decides to terminate the life of her unborn child. The most obvious reason being the health of both the parent and child will be affected. The other would probably be unable to care for the child as required as the child will have special needs in terms of disablity.
Of course, we must analyse the other end of the spectrum. A mother who doesn't care about the unborn child as the conception is not intended ought to know about the consequences of her choice in coitus. I believe this thread is more intended for the unintended mothers.
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I have already explained. We do not have the rights to take away a person's life even though the parents may have trouble taking care of the child (i.e if due to pre-marital sex, etc). Like I explained the other choice is to give the child for adoption etc but to take care of the child themselves should be preferred. But abortion is to be avoided in such cases.
Secondly, in regards to health reasons, like I have mentioned in the previous post lets say the child has low IQ or intellect, but nevertheless we should understand that the child came due to his and our karma, we must accept this as part of clearing his and our karma, and practise extra love and patience. We should not simply kill a child just because he has something lacking of an ordinary child.
Thirdly if the child poses a danger to the mother's life or in certain circumstances that abortion is to be taken it should be understood that there are karmic consequences for aborting the child and one must take the necessary steps as a Buddhist to clear our karma and help the aborted child (as explained in the previous post).
quote:
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A medical practitioner, such as Oxford Mushroom, may further point out that doctors usually practice abortions so as to uphold the hippocratic oath. So any claims that abortionists are murderers is pure nonsensical conjecture.
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Hippocratic oath has to do with not practising abortion.. I do not understand what you mean.
...One need not be a Christian or even a believer in God to KNOW that taking an innocent human life is wrong. The Hippocratic Oath, from the 4th century B.C., declares: "...Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion." Until recently, this oath was taken by every physician as he entered his practice. Sadly, this is no longer the case. After 6000 years of keeping inviolate a human life in the womb, our "modern" society has decided that some lives are more important than others. We have lost our moorings..[/i]
How long can a parent breath for a child? How long can a parent clear out toxins from a kidneyless and liverless baby? Given our modern medical capabilities, years of painful and torturing survival will be entailed. A properly planned and executed abortion is meant to be prevent such painful sufferings for both parent and child. I have heard of cases of children born without the means to survive and kept on life preserving equipment until necrotic infection sets in. This is a sad day indeed as buddhists have lost all wisdom and humanity from Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings.
The Hippocratic Oath has a lot to do with preserving lives. Unfortunately AEN has failed to realise the fact that in the case of abortion, triage, a method of deciding how best to preserve life, is often practiced. In this case, the baby's life is considered as below the mother's life in value and is thus sacrificed for the well-being of the mother. In fact, the Oath has been reworded recently in the last century to allow for abortions as both unborn child and mother are the physician's patients. -
I see.. npOriginally posted by TWE:Thanks an eternal now for the true story on abortion , that helps answer alot of suspicion that i have ony my mind for a few years already ..... Think thats enough for me .
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Most of the time abortions are not the last solutions, only in minority cases are they aborted due to obvious dangers to mother's life, etc. Abortion rate in Singapore is about 25% of babies, I believe most babies are aborted due to reasons like teenage sex, etc.
I really wonder who has lost his or her mental bearings, AEN or me? As I said before, it's the final and last resort that an abortion is considered as a solution. However, AEN just generalised that abortions are totally unnecessary even in extreme cases or emergencies. In fact, AEN considers abortions in such cases as generating negative karma.
How long can a parent breath for a child? How long can a parent clear out toxins from a kidneyless and liverless baby? Given our modern medical capabilities, years of painful and torturing survival will be entailed. A properly planned and executed abortion is meant to be prevent such painful sufferings for both parent and child. I have heard of cases of children born without the means to survive and kept on life preserving equipment until necrotic infection sets in. This is a sad day indeed as buddhists have lost all wisdom and humanity from Shakyamuni Buddha's teachings.The Hippocratic Oath has a lot to do with preserving lives. Unfortunately AEN has failed to realise the fact that in the case of abortion, triage, a method of deciding how best to preserve life, is often practiced. In this case, the baby's life is considered as below the mother's life in value and is thus sacrificed for the well-being of the mother. In fact, the Oath has been reworded recently in the last century to allow for abortions as both unborn child and mother are the physician's patients.
In most cases, preserving lives means NOT to abort. In the case of saving mother's life during emergency situations, nevertheless there is karma for killing although the level of karma may be different for killing the baby for other unnecessary reasons (i.e due to unwanted babies). A big problem is many people abort the babies with excuses of medical symptom but in actuality it is just a fictitious excuse. Anyway so I was saying whatever the reasons for aborting the baby there is karma involved, so if one has aborted the baby one has to practise the things that can clear our and the babies' karma. -
How about dropping a pm to Oxford Mushroom and inquire the rough percentage?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:In most cases, preserving lives means NOT to abort. In the case of saving mother's life during emergency situations, nevertheless there is karma for killing although the level of karma may be different for killing the baby for other unnecessary reasons (i.e due to unwanted babies). A big problem is many people abort the babies with excuses of medical symptom but in actuality it is just a fictitious excuse. Anyway so I was saying whatever the reasons for aborting the baby there is karma involved, so if one has aborted the baby one has to practise the things that can clear our and the babies' karma. -
Sure, you can help me ask himOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How about dropping a pm to Oxford Mushroom and inquire the rough percentage?
However I am also citing the likelihood that many may use fictitious medical issues as an excuse to have abortion (at least from what I heard this is a common practice in Taiwan). In Singapore I have no idea.
Here is what I found, that Singapore only has 2% of abortions made due to maternal risks (http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL12/randy.html):
6. Zambia reported 3.4% citing maternal risk, Singapore 7.3% (1984) and 2% (1985), Colombia 8.8%, Mexico 8.3%.
Here are the figures of Thailand and U.S:
Thailand U.S.
Wants to postpone childbearing 16.1% 25.5%
Wants no (more) children 36.3% 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby 18.5% 21.3%
Having a baby will disrupt 8.5% 10.8%
education or job
Has relationship problem or partner 3.3% 14.1%
does not want pregnancy
Too young: parent(s) or other(s) 2.7% 12.2%
object to pregnancy
Risk to maternal health 5.1% 2.8%
Risk to fetal health 5.1% 3.3%
Other 5.1% 2.1%
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Like I suspected, reasons like teenage sex, unwillingness to take care of children, etc etc which all seems to be avoidable as long as the parents take the responsibilities, makes up most of the abortion cases while health reasons are only about 5 to 10%. -
If you want to factor in psychological factors, that'll deal at least a whooping 50 percent down the drain.
(The infamous post-natal blues) -
mm what happens if the baby can cause health danger to the mother?
and the docter could recommend the mother to abort it?
So it is either the mother or baby's life... -
I think it really depends on the situation and one must see the risks etc involved... But like I explained if abortion is to be undertaken one must understand that even so, there are karma involved and therefore one has to do lots of purification practices and dedicate merits to the baby so as to help ourselves and the baby clear our karma and hopefully the baby wld be reborn in virtuous realms.Originally posted by Isis:mm what happens if the baby can cause health danger to the mother?
and the docter could recommend the mother to abort it?
So it is either the mother or baby's life... -
Then I believe, it's karma that such a baby is not meant to be(exist).Originally posted by Isis:mm what happens if the baby can cause health danger to the mother?
and the docter could recommend the mother to abort it?
So it is either the mother or baby's life... -
Originally posted by Isis:
normally, the baby come as the debtor of the mother, then if the baby is aborted, it'll still come again. unless the dept/karma is cleared between both of them.
mm what happens if the baby can cause health danger to the mother?
and the docter could recommend the mother to abort it?
So it is either the mother or baby's life...
like say, if i came to you for what you own me. but you did not pay me, instead kill me. how would you think i would feel?
but maybe the above case is link to collective karma.
ps: many cases of abortions, the mothers actually felt very very guilty.
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Not all ley , my mum tried to abort me but failed n untill now whenever we argue she will still occasionally use it as her weapon to remind me that she never wanted me at all .
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I see. Did you cause any health danger for your mother..? What is the reason she wanted to abort?Originally posted by TWE:Not all ley , my mum tried to abort me but failed n untill now whenever we argue she will still occasionally use it as her weapon to remind me that she never wanted me at all .