Buddhism's Stance on Abortion
-
I am now totally lost in ascertaining the point you are trying to make.... Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:What has health got to do with life? It is on parrellel terms. -
Haha... ya now I don't even know what the hell is herzog trying to point out after so many repliesOriginally posted by Beyond Religion:I am now totally lost in ascertaining the point you are trying to make.... Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?
?? Anyway I do not understand why you are talking about total organ malfunction. Are you saying all babies born before 9 months will get total organ malfunction and die? What are you trying to say?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:What has health got to do with life? It is on parrellel terms. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:?? Anyway I do not understand why you are talking about total organ malfunction. Are you saying all babies born before 9 months will get total organ malfunction and die? What are you trying to say?
P.s I find that the law in Singapore which allows unborn babies up to 6 months old to be legally aborted, simply horrifying. Since between 1 to 3 months they already show signs of heartbeat, movement, and sense perception. 4 months old already have baby that are prematurely born. Lots of babies are born at 6th month and looks very healthy.
Stating that you are overgeneralising. Not all babies are born healthty and there are those whose birth will finally result in death soon. -
Hi Paefans,Originally posted by PaeFans:Hi,
I have a few qns for the threadstarter and sincerely hope that my doubts can be cleared.
My wife had 2 abortions previously.
The 1st time was due to a medical condition whereby 1 out of 4 pregnancy will results in a failure (due pre-existing medical condition of both parents). Extensively tests were taken to ensure that the baby was not the unfortunate 25% of failure but the test results showed that the baby will not survive till birth (only 10% will survive but will eventually die within hours of birth due to genetics defects). The baby was aborted when he/she was in the 16 weeks.
The second abortion was due to no heartbeat when doing a routine ultra-sound.
My question to the threadstarted is that am i building very bad karma because i have aborted my 1st baby? The reason for abortion was due to medical reasons (if continue pregnancy, there will be dangers to the mother).
Some background on the Medical condition:
- The genetics condition is Known as Bart Hydrops which affects the baby.
- The parents must suffer from the same genetics diease known as thalasymia (sic) where one of the two oxygen carrying red blood cells is not carrying oxygen.
- There are two types of thalasiymia -Type A and Type B.
- My wife and i suffered from Type A.
- Bart Hydrops refer to no oxygen carrying Red Blood cells in the baby.
Pls help explain whether i have committed great sins in aborting my baby in the first abortion based on the above medical conditions.
Thanks.
Regards,
Paefans.
Just to share my opinion on your queries.
I guess whether or not have you commit a great sin depends on your understanding of kamma. It's sad to say the norm buddhists out there had been seeing kamma as an invisible force of nature or justice that is supposedly to bring justice out of a person's deed. Now this would make the Buddha's definition of kamma sounds like determinism which is definitely untrue. Buddha's idea of kamma is about conditioning factor rather than determining factor.
When the Buddha had advised us on the first precept, to avoid killing, it was aimed to cultivate our mind to at least not to have the thought of killing due to acting on it frequently, so as our mind will from there, generate the thought of to act for the welfare and happiness of all beings.
Now being said this, how many times have you aborted? I don't believe it will be so high of a frequency that it turns into a habit right? In fact I believe both your wife and yourself would be very disappointed and even frustrated with yourselves.
The abortions that you'd done were carried out due to medical background and in no way I think that you'd done so due to a deliberate act in trying to shed off the responsibility as parents.
Now I believe that both your wife and yourself shouldn't be tied down by this "had we done great sins" at the back of your mind. Because having this negative thought, I believe it will hinder rather than complement your marriage life. Having the little ones in a well-built family is part and parcel of lives, but over blaming for the lost of them is definitely not a constructive element in building up a happy family. The self blame could eventually become finger-pointing.
AEN pointed out that you could do some repentance, it may be good, but I don't see the necessity our of it. You may have deliberate aborted the child but it is done in a forced circumstance. You could however dedicate merits to the unborn child while you are doing your chanting service daily (I assume you have?). Or while making a dana (donation) to your local monastry and/or ordain monks and/or nuns, utter this with sincerity in your mind: May the merits of the dana I had performed be dedicated to my unborn child. May he be well and happy.
And if any person tells you that certain people performing rituals for unborn children, really, please don't entertain them. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any scriptures that says about rituals for unborn children. Rather, business-minded people see a market nowadays that the abortion rate is getting higher and making use of the trend to make money out of it. They might use your guilt as a bait to engage future such services.
As buddhist, we should refrain ourselves from unethical and unbuddhistic practices and I think giving dana to the local monastry and the monk is simple and good enough way to dedicate merits.
And by saying monastry, I don't mean those "fake" ones, but rather those that either really putting in effort in promoting Buddhism, or at least have decent and well learned monks and not those that simply sit and wait for dana.
As for sinweiy whose idea prone to determinism, well, probably the child did something grievious in his previous life to have determined to have his end in this manner in this life. I mean we definitely won't know. And hence I don't recommend in speculate that child is creditor; parents are debtors.
And to Herzog_Hwei, I believe AEN is either a very fortunate kid to have little or none of these type of sufferings be happened to anyone around him or he really is a highly cultivated being to have stick to the principle of the Dhamma.
Let's not argue for the sake of argueing shall we?
=) -
Originally posted by yamizi:
yamizi looks like a familiar nick from the Singapore YMB.
Hi Paefans,
Just to share my opinion on your queries.
I guess whether or not have you commit a great sin depends on your understanding of kamma. It's sad to say the norm buddhists out there had been seeing kamma as an invisible force of nature or justice that is supposedly to bring justice out of a person's deed. Now this would make the Buddha's definition of kamma sounds like determinism which is definitely untrue. Buddha's idea of kamma is about [b]conditioning factor rather than determining factor.
When the Buddha had advised us on the first precept, to avoid killing, it was aimed to cultivate our mind to at least not to have the thought of killing due to acting on it frequently, so as our mind will from there, generate the thought of to act for the welfare and happiness of all beings.
Now being said this, how many times have you aborted? I don't believe it will be so high of a frequency that it turns into a habit right? In fact I believe both your wife and yourself would be very disappointed and even frustrated with yourselves.
The abortions that you'd done were carried out due to medical background and in no way I think that you'd done so due to a deliberate act in trying to shed off the responsibility as parents.
Now I believe that both your wife and yourself shouldn't be tied down by this "had we done great sins" at the back of your mind. Because having this negative thought, I believe it will hinder rather than complement your marriage life. Having the little ones in a well-built family is part and parcel of lives, but over blaming for the lost of them is definitely not a constructive element in building up a happy family. The self blame could eventually become finger-pointing.
AEN pointed out that you could do some repentance, it may be good, but I don't see the necessity our of it. You may have deliberate aborted the child but it is done in a forced circumstance. You could however dedicate merits to the unborn child while you are doing your chanting service daily (I assume you have?). Or while making a dana (donation) to your local monastry and/or ordain monks and/or nuns, utter this with sincerity in your mind: May the merits of the dana I had performed be dedicated to my unborn child. May he be well and happy.
And if any person tells you that certain people performing rituals for unborn children, really, please don't entertain them. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any scriptures that says about rituals for unborn children. Rather, business-minded people see a market nowadays that the abortion rate is getting higher and making use of the trend to make money out of it. They might use your guilt as a bait to engage future such services.
As buddhist, we should refrain ourselves from unethical and unbuddhistic practices and I think giving dana to the local monastry and the monk is simple and good enough way to dedicate merits.
And by saying monastry, I don't mean those "fake" ones, but rather those that either really putting in effort in promoting Buddhism, or at least have decent and well learned monks and not those that simply sit and wait for dana.
As for sinweiy whose idea prone to determinism, well, probably the child did something grievious in his previous life to have determined to have his end in this manner in this life. I mean we definitely won't know. And hence I don't recommend in speculate that child is creditor; parents are debtors.
And to Herzog_Hwei, I believe AEN is either a very fortunate kid to have little or none of these type of sufferings be happened to anyone around him or he really is a highly cultivated being to have stick to the principle of the Dhamma.
Let's not argue for the sake of argueing shall we?
=)[/b]
I am not here for argument sake, I am just sick and tired of Buddhists(and every other religious believer) claiming this and that just to prove their doctrinal worth. Each time I counter whatever claims that are put up so that Singapore will not become a haven for any religious fanatics, I get badly rebuked. I think Thomas Paine's Common Sense may have less common sense than my views of common sense but less likely to be so badly looked upon by any religious believer. -
Hello, what's YMB? I used to be active at MIRC #Buddhism between 1997 - 2000Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:yamizi looks like a familiar nick from the Singapore YMB.
I am not here for argument sake, I am just sick and tired of Buddhists(and every other religious believer) claiming this and that just to prove their doctrinal worth. Each time I counter whatever claims that are put up so that Singapore will not become a haven for any religious fanatics, I get badly rebuked. I think Thomas Paine's Common Sense may have less common sense than my views of common sense but less likely to be so badly looked upon by any religious believer.
Erm and I apologise that I mis-wrote that part, it's not meant for you.
And I respect that you know very well that at least in Singapore, nominal buddhists just like to give false claims on literally anything in the world.
I apologise to you for this misunderstanding. =) -
No you are not here for argument sake, you are actually secretly commissioned to boost the rating of BWBOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:yamizi looks like a familiar nick from the Singapore YMB.
I am not here for argument sake, I am just sick and tired of Buddhists(and every other religious believer) claiming this and that just to prove their doctrinal worth. Each time I counter whatever claims that are put up so that Singapore will not become a haven for any religious fanatics, I get badly rebuked. I think Thomas Paine's Common Sense may have less common sense than my views of common sense but less likely to be so badly looked upon by any religious believer.
---- kidding----
But seriously, it may be the way you present your arguments... it just give the appearance of going round the circle picking on semantic and syntatic issues without a clear central point. I still do not know what you are trying to disprove here..... -
Grr... I click once and got no response from the browser... I clicked afew more times and this happens... Duplicate posts Sorry!
-
Double post deleted.
-
double post deleted
-
And your point is? How is it relevant to this topic at all?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Stating that you are overgeneralising. Not all babies are born healthty and there are those whose birth will finally result in death soon. -
But lots of your post doesn't make sense.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:yamizi looks like a familiar nick from the Singapore YMB.
I am not here for argument sake, I am just sick and tired of Buddhists(and every other religious believer) claiming this and that just to prove their doctrinal worth. Each time I counter whatever claims that are put up so that Singapore will not become a haven for any religious fanatics, I get badly rebuked. I think Thomas Paine's Common Sense may have less common sense than my views of common sense but less likely to be so badly looked upon by any religious believer. -
Neither do yours....Originally posted by An Eternal Now:But lots of your post doesn't make sense. -
Nope, all my posts are in accordance to this forum topic, "Buddhism's Stance on Abortion", whereas your posts have little to do with this topic. I merely replied your posts in order to find out what you are trying to say but in the end it seems to have no relevance.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Neither do yours.... -
And I am stating that your stance is against common as well as medical sense.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Nope, all my posts are in accordance to this forum topic, "Buddhism's Stance on Abortion", whereas your posts have little to do with this topic. I merely replied your posts in order to find out what you are trying to say but in the end it seems to have no relevance. -
AEN,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Nope, all my posts are in accordance to this forum topic, "Buddhism's Stance on Abortion", whereas your posts have little to do with this topic. I merely replied your posts in order to find out what you are trying to say but in the end it seems to have no relevance.
I think that Herzog_Zwei is trying to say that not all foetues are formed completely and healthy and therefore it is up to the couples' decision in whether to go for abortion or not.
It's always easy to say that even if incomplete, not healthy we should not abort, and people will go on quoting famous people like Beethovan and such. But how many people willing to take such a chance and responsiblities?
My stand is that a deliberate attempt to abort a child should be avoided in accordance with our first precept. However, living in realistic and painful world we all sometimes will be put into circumstances that a difficult choice has to be made.
The point is that do what one ought to do and be responsible for it. -
Coming close to what I was trying to express.Originally posted by yamizi:AEN,
I think that Herzog_Zwei is trying to say that not all foetues are formed completely and healthy and therefore it is up to the couples' decision in whether to go for abortion or not.
It's always easy to say that even if incomplete, not healthy we should not abort, and people will go on quoting famous people like Beethovan and such. But how many people willing to take such a chance and responsiblities?
My stand is that a deliberate attempt to abort a child should be avoided in accordance with our first precept. However, living in realistic and painful world we all sometimes will be put into circumstances that a difficult choice has to be made.
The point is that do what one ought to do and be responsible for it. -
Originally posted by yamizi:AEN,
I think that Herzog_Zwei is trying to say that not all foetues are formed completely and healthy and therefore it is up to the couples' decision in whether to go for abortion or not.
It's always easy to say that even if incomplete, not healthy we should not abort, and people will go on quoting famous people like Beethovan and such. But how many people willing to take such a chance and responsiblities?
My stand is that a deliberate attempt to abort a child should be avoided in accordance with our first precept. However, living in realistic and painful world we all sometimes will be put into circumstances that a difficult choice has to be made.
The point is that do what one ought to do and be responsible for it.
I have never suggested that abortion should never be done under all circumstances, but I pointed earlier on that abortions done out of so called "unavoidable circumstances" such as danger to maternal or fetal health makes up only 5 to 10% of all abortions, while most of the abortions could be avoided. I also made a point that 25% of fetuses in Singapore are aborted, and it wouldn't make sense that much of the numbers are aborted due to health reasons but usually they are aborted due to unwillingness and other avoidable reasons.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Coming close to what I was trying to express.
In any case I also have to make a point that even if abortion is done under circumstances such as health reasons, we cannot just say there will not be karmic effects.. as Yamizi is said, karma isn't just a system to judge a person. The act of killing the baby, causing tremendous pain, taking away life, itself has karma even though it might be done under various circumstances. The same goes for euthanasia, even if choices are made due to that circumstance it doesn't mean no karma will be created. So even though the karmic effects may not be the same as, say abortion done out of unwillingness to bear a child, we should bear in mind that all abortions will result in some form of karma, and therefore, we should under such circumstances try to lighten our karma and his karma and dedicate merits to the child. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Turns out that out of all Singapore's abortions, only about 3% are done due to health reasons:
Sure, you can help me ask him
However I am also citing the likelihood that many may use fictitious medical issues as an excuse to have abortion (at least from what I heard this is a common practice in Taiwan). In Singapore I have no idea.
Here is what I found, that Singapore only has 2% of abortions made due to maternal risks (http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL12/randy.html):
6. Zambia reported 3.4% citing maternal risk, Singapore 7.3% (1984) and 2% (1985), Colombia 8.8%, Mexico 8.3%.
Here are the figures of Thailand and U.S:
Thailand U.S.
Wants to postpone childbearing 16.1% 25.5%
Wants no (more) children 36.3% 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby 18.5% 21.3%
Having a baby will disrupt 8.5% 10.8%
education or job
Has relationship problem or partner 3.3% 14.1%
does not want pregnancy
Too young: parent(s) or other(s) 2.7% 12.2%
object to pregnancy
Risk to maternal health 5.1% 2.8%
Risk to fetal health 5.1% 3.3%
Other 5.1% 2.1%
-----
Like I suspected, reasons like teenage sex, unwillingness to take care of children, etc etc which all seems to be avoidable as long as the parents take the [b]responsibilities, makes up most of the abortion cases while health reasons are only about 5 to 10%.[/b]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9551373&dopt=Abstract *
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore.
STUDY OBJECTIVE: Abortion legislation in Singapore has gone through dramatic changes in the past 25 years. In this paper, we studied the effect of abortion legislation on abortion trends in Singapore. SETTING AND PARTICIPANTS: The Ministry of Health, Singapore, collects data on all abortions performed in Singapore. These data have been analyzed and are presented in this paper. RESULTS: The liberalization of abortion legislation resulted in a dramatic increase in the number of abortions performed beginning in 1974. The rate peaked at 23,512 abortions in 1985, and in fact, 35% of all pregnancies were terminated in 1985. The introduction of mandatory abortion counseling in 1986 resulted in a decline in the number of abortions to 16,476 in 1993 with only 24.6% of pregnancies being terminated. The teenage abortion rate was 0.2 per 1000 female teenagers under 20 years of age in 1970. With the liberalization of abortions, the rate reached a peak of 13.7 per 1000 female teenagers in 1985. In 1993, the teenage abortion rate was 9.5%. The proportion of nulliparous women seeking abortion has increased phenomenally from 0.5% in 1976 to 40.6% in 1993. Close to 95% of the women seeking abortions in 1993 did so for social reasons, 3.7% for medical reasons, and 2.0% for failed contraception (Table 3). CONCLUSION: Mandatory abortion counseling and a change in the government policy which now encourages Singaporeans to have more children if they can afford it, have resulted in a decrease in the number of abortions being performed. The problems of teenage abortions, nulliparous abortions, and repeated abortions need to be further addressed.
PMID: 9551373 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -
---
-
There is no doubt when an action is performed regardless of the motivation, karma is created. The only difference here is correct motivation will yield less intensity when bearing fruit.
It is pretty difficult to discuss if destroying the life of a deformed baby just to prevent his/her future sufferings after been born is helping that sentient being. We cannot see the future.
That act of destorying a life has negative karma been created, even if it is really preventing his/her suffering.
Just know that you will need to have correct views in order to have correct motivations. Every situation is different and alot of contemplation is needed.
Cherrio -
Hence I said this thread is more for those with unplanned pregnancies and not pregnancies that have to be terminated due to medical cause.Originally posted by An Eternal Now: -
Well.. I did said something for those of medical cause as well.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hence I said this thread is more for those with unplanned pregnancies and not pregnancies that have to be terminated due to medical cause. -
Then please don't generalise that abortion is an unskillful act, there is a need for it and it is not murder when one life is taken so that another may continue.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Well.. I did said something for those of medical cause as well. -
I did not generalise that abortion is an unskillful act in my posts, it depends on which situation, and nevertheless as I said there is karma even if it is a so called 'skillful act', and there are steps we can take to lessen these effects and help the deceased.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then please don't generalise that abortion is an unskillful act, there is a need for it and it is not murder when one life is taken so that another may continue.
Whether it is skillful or an unskillful act, it does not change the fact that abortion is killing. It might be murder in the sense that it is done with ill will or killed against the law, although in most cases abortion is committed without the right thought and reasons.