Questions on the four immeasurables
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Ehhh will practise the four immeasurables lead me to heavan realm?
i don't want to be struck there for a long time..
i want to practise the dharma as human -
Originally posted by Isis:Ehhh will practise the four immeasurables lead me to heavan realm?
i don't want to be struck there for a long time..
i want to practise the dharma as human
Don't worry about wanting to stay as human or going to heaven.. If you practise the Four Immeasurables, next life you will be born with good conditions, luxury, etc. A Buddhist should cultivate all the good mental qualities, cultivate blessings, wisdoms, and conditions. If you really practise hard as a human.. even if you are reborn in Deva realm you will still get to know the Dharma. Why? The seeds of dharma is deeply rooted in your consciousness, and you have a strong karmic affinity with the Triple Gems -- Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. The Dharma is also taught in the heavens, there are a lot of records in Sutras of Devas attaining Stream Entry or higher. There are many Bodhisattvas teaching there as well. In Tushita Heaven especially, Maitreya Bodhisattva is teaching in the Tushita's Inner Courtyard, until it is time for him to come to Earth to attain Buddhahood. There are many famous practitioners throughout history who aimed to be reborn in Tushita's Inner Courtyard to continue their practise and learning from Maitreya Bodhisattva.
If you are practising the path to Arhatship, aim to attain at least Stream Entry (1st stage, and at most 7 lifetimes before Arhatship) this lifetime! If you are practising the path of Bodhisattva, aim to attain at least 1st Bhumi this lifetime! Then your path is somewhat "set" already
It is not all that impossible, there are quite a lot of enlightened people even today, some of them are even posting in the forum. But lastly don't be satisfied with whatever attainment and continue to full enlightenment.. hehe.. -
A friend of mine has told me that by attending the first Jhana in meditation practise, we will automatically be reborn into the first Jhana realm after we pass away? Can we still practise the dharma there?
What are the conditions for one to be reborn into the
Tush-ita Heaven's inner courtyard .. anyone knows?
Thx -
Hi Isis,
I think you worry too much...
Why don't you get yourself enlightened in this life. It is very possible. -
Hi Long chen, there is no use worrying as all are determined by karma..
Let nature determines its course.
just wanting to know for know sake = ) -
No, attaining first jhana does not necessarily mean we will be reborn in first Jhana realm. I also have certain jhanic experiences but I really doubt that I am heading for heaven nowOriginally posted by Isis:A friend of mine has told me that by attending the first Jhana in meditation practise, we will automatically be reborn into the first Jhana realm after we pass away? Can we still practise the dharma there?
What are the conditions for one to be reborn into the
Tush-ita Heaven's inner courtyard .. anyone knows?
Thx
Why? Firstly, Jhana experiences are temporary meaning after you're out of your jhana, life goes on as normal. In the human realm it is impossible to function in the world at the Jhanic level of consciousness, except in deep meditation. If you go to the Jhanic realms in the afterlife, you will be able to sustain the level of jhanic bliss throughout your life as a Brahma.... but NOT in the human realm.
What this means is you can cultivate very high jhanas and continue to do evil things (although less likely for a mind with stability). This will probably remind you of Devadatta, Buddha's cousin. He tried to kill Buddha four times (and failed) and tried to create a schism in the Sangha. He also mastered the Jhanas and psychic powers, but because of his heavy karma he still had to fall into hell for his wrongdoings.
The Buddha was omniscient.. so the question is why would he allow devadatta to enter his Sangha and create all these sort of problems? The reasons was that the Buddha did indeed foresee all these, however, he knew that by allowing Devadatta to enter the Sangha, he will be able to attain Pratyekabuddhahood after his "visit to hell". So the Buddha prophecised that Devadatta, due to his jhanic attainments and cultivation, will be able to attain Pratyekabuddhahood in the future.
Then how to attain Jhana rebirth? Firstly, the basics must be there -- you must avoid all bad karmas, keep the 5 precepts, do the 10 virtuous deeds, practise generosity, be filial to your parents, also practise the mental qualities like the 4 immeasurables, loving kindness and so on... I also suspect at the time of death, you must be in the state of jhana to begin with.. then there is a likelihood that you might be reborn in the jhana realms. That means, not only must you attain jhanas a few times, but you must master the art of entering jhana easily at any given moments, this requires very strong samadhi/samatha skills.
Lastly.. I am not too sure about the practise of being reborn in Tushita Court as I do not practise that... perhaps someone can fill you in. -
Ya agreed...Originally posted by longchen:Hi Isis,
I think you worry too much...
Why don't you get yourself enlightened in this life. It is very possible. -
For one whom has attained first jhana, can easily go into first jhana at any moment.. even at the moment of death?
I heard it was actually encouraged to attain first jhana...
can practise dharma there too?
of course in the long run, we should all practise and strive for enlightenment. -
actually im still trying to find a teacher and a dharma door that i can work on..Originally posted by longchen:Hi Isis,
I think you worry too much...
Why don't you get yourself enlightened in this life. It is very possible.
letting affinity find its way ... -
Originally posted by Isis:
No, please read my post again. I mean, if you can attain first jhana, it does not mean you can attain first jhana again easily, or even at will, it requires practise and mastery to be able to enter it "at your will".
For one whom has attained first jhana, can easily go into first jhana at any moment.. even at the moment of death?I heard it was actually encouraged to attain first jhana...
Depends on which teacher. The reason why some teachers would teach that entering at least first jhana is very helpful, is because it stabilises the mind a lot. Some teachers teach Insight straight, etc.
can practise dharma there too?
of course in the long run, we should all practise and strive for enlightenment.
Dharma Dan said,
As concentration improves, it is as though the mind “sees” the first jhana and grabs on to it. Having an idea of what you are looking for, i.e. something enjoyable and steady, can be helpful for this. It has the five primary factors of applied and sustained effort or attention, rapture, happiness and concentration. Thus, it is great fun, feels good, but takes consistent effort to sustain. The attention is focused narrowly, as though one were looking at a small area of this page. This state can be quite a relief from the pain and discomfort of sitting meditation and can temporarily quiet the mind somewhat. As with all the concentration states, it is generally quite easy to concentrate on something that is very enjoyable. Thus, one’s concentration skills may improve rapidly and easily after attaining the first jhana and tend to basically flounder until one has a attained the first jhana. Thus, attaining the first jhana is really, really important.
And anyway yes, you can practise Dharma at the first jhana too. Why? From what I know, the Brahma King, Maha Brahma, is also a Buddhist (quite obviously, he invited Buddha to teach, and took refuge under him, and invited him to the heavens to teach), he is an Anagami (3rd stage Arhat).
My Master and teachers however, do not recommend any particular jhanic cultivation. -
icic.. thx for clarifying my doubts.
/\ -
Good luck in your findingOriginally posted by Isis:actually im still trying to find a teacher and a dharma door that i can work on..
letting affinity find its way ...
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its not easy and also its not difficult to reach the jhana stage (for anyone), of cos besides the merits or karmic ability to be able to do so which seriously i don't have an attachment to blindly believe in them. correct me if i'm wrong. it is possible when one does not have a concept of form in terms of like having a place or stage one aims to go. the more you want to get there the less likely you'll be there. these stages are merely a set of objects. even if a person without having to be reborn in the heavens is also possible to travel there & receive teachings directly from the bodhisattva in the human form through meditation. the key is to be liberated from the sufferings of the cycles of rebirth & death no matter where one dwells. as for the ability to settle or leave the jhana states at one's will, is all depends on one's practice & cultivation of cos and its not so important because it will become natural in the process.
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Yes true, however I must emphasize that Samatha jhanas (unlike Insight jhanas) are not crucial and necessary for liberation. (even though some confused people may say otherwise.. I have not contacted the jhana support group and I have yet to understand their understandings of jhanaOriginally posted by paperflower:its not easy and also its not difficult to reach the jhana stage (for anyone), of cos besides the merits or karmic ability to be able to do so which seriously i don't have an attachment to blindly believe in them. correct me if i'm wrong. it is possible when one does not have a concept of form in terms of like having a place or stage one aims to go. the more you want to get there the less likely you'll be there. these stages are merely a set of objects. even if a person without having to be reborn in the heavens is also possible to travel there & receive teachings directly from the bodhisattva in the human form through meditation. the key is to be liberated from the sufferings of the cycles of rebirth & death no matter where one dwells. as for the ability to settle or leave the jhana states at one's will, is all depends on one's practice & cultivation of cos and its not so important because it will become natural in the process.) Samatha jhanas itself does not lead to insight or liberation, it may lead to better rebirth or rebirth in the 8 jhana planes, and also may lead to psychic powers, but it is very different from Insight jhanas.
However it would be good to know the stages (i.e insight stages) as it might help in our progress, know the pitfalls, and so on. The Bodhisattva bhumi models, Lam Rim teachings, etc etc, also contains many teachings on the stages of the path. Of course like any other things... it is not meant to be attached, but meant to guide and help us. Also "wanting to get there" is just a sentient thought, the crucial factor is in practicing every moment. -
I totally agree with AEN.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes true, however I must emphasize that Samatha jhanas (unlike Insight jhanas) are not crucial and necessary for liberation. (even though some confused people may say otherwise.. I have not contacted the jhana support group and I have yet to understand their understandings of jhana) Samatha jhanas itself does not lead to insight or liberation, it may lead to better rebirth or rebirth in the 8 jhana planes, and also may lead to psychic powers, but it is very different from Insight jhanas.
However it would be good to know the stages (i.e insight stages) as it might help in our progress, know the pitfalls, and so on. The Bodhisattva bhumi models, Lam Rim teachings, etc etc, also contains many teachings on the stages of the path. Of course like any other things... it is not meant to be attached, but meant to guide and help us. Also "wanting to get there" is just a sentient thought, the crucial factor is in practicing every moment.
Insight is also very important... perhaps even more important than Jhana attainments.
About myself, I practice Jhana meditation for some years... I learn it during meditation retreat and also some years ago, I attended meditation class, with my mum and wife (gf at that time) on Sundays in a Buddhist temple in Bukit Timah. The teachers said that i was a very good meditator and it is a pity that i did not took refuge. But for years there was no progress so I quit going to the class.
For me, jhana meditation was not enough. Without insights and realisations, I was not able to understand the working of mind and consciousness. It was a series of realisations that allowed me to better understand consciousness and work around the limitations imposed by the 'sense of self'. For that I am grateful to the guidance offered by several teachers.
My point is... with the proper understanding and practice... realisations and progress along the enlightenment path is shorter than one usually expect. Certainly it is less than one kalpa
One of the major pitfall is in reading up and absorbing all kinds of informations, regardless of whether they are from religious sources or not. It must be understood that many informations maybe culturally bias. Even if the informations are true, those realised masters wrote from a state that is different from the average readers'. As such, these readers conjure up 'imaginations' and 'speculation' that impede progress. Yes, speculations impede progress. In fact, they are what constitute most of my obstacles.... I spend more time unlearning them instead
These are my experiences and I hope this is helpful. -
Originally posted by longchen:
Oh I see.. thanks for your sharing
I totally agree with AEN.
Insight is also very important... perhaps even more important than Jhana attainments.
About myself, I practice Jhana meditation for some years... I learn it during meditation retreat and also some years ago, I attended meditation class, with my mum and wife (gf at that time) on Sundays in a Buddhist temple in Bukit Timah. The teachers said that i was a very good meditator and it is a pity that i did not took refuge. But for years there was no progress so I quit going to the class.
For me, jhana meditation was not enough. Without insights and realisations, I was not able to understand the working of mind and consciousness. It was a series of realisations that allowed me to better understand consciousness and work around the limitations imposed by the 'sense of self'. For that I am grateful to the guidance offered by several teachers.
My point is... with [b]the proper understanding and practice... realisations and progress along the enlightenment path is shorter than one usually expect. Certainly it is less than one kalpa
One of the major pathfall is in reading up and absorbing all kinds of informations, regardless of whether they are from religious sources or not. It must be understood that many informations maybe culturally bias. Even if the informations are true, those realised masters wrote from a state that is different from the average readers'. As such, these readers conjures up 'imaginations' and 'speculation' that impedes progress. Yes, speculations impedes progress. In fact, they are what constitute most of my obstacles.... I spend more time unlearning them instead
These are my experience and I hope this is helpful.
[/b] You reminded me that Buddha himself was unsatisfied with his 2 previous teachers who taught him how to attain the 7th and 8th jhana... he left these 2 teachers and practised himself because these jhanas did not lead to enlightenment and liberation he sought. -
Indeed, just to add, liberation and enlightenment is a result of a form of "awakening", it is not about attaining anything, or any states, because enlightenment is imageless. Any mental state is still within the realm of consciousness, as long as there is no awakening to the truth of no-self, emptiness, there is still dualistic consciousness, 7th consciousness.Originally posted by paperflower:it is possible when one does not have a concept of form in terms of like having a place or stage one aims to go. the more you want to get there the less likely you'll be there. these stages are merely a set of objects.
To put it in another way... enlightenment means awakening to the truth of what always IS. It is literally waking up from the dream of what never existed, into the real... but yet reality is not any "thing", being of the nature of emptiness itself, ungraspable. Just a form of wisdom."“Virtuous man, one who practices Complete Enlightenment of the causal ground of the Tathagata realizes that [birth and extinction] are like an illusory flower in the sky. Thus there is no continuance of birth and death and no body or mind that is subject to birth and death. This nonexistence of [birth and death and body and mind] is so not as a consequence of contrived effort. It is so by its intrinsic nature.
“The awareness [of their nonexistence] is like empty space. That which is aware of the empty space is like the appearance of the illusory flower. However, one cannot say that the nature of this awareness is nonexistent. Eliminating both existence and nonexistence is in accordance with pure enlightenment.
“Why is it so? Because the nature of empty space is ever unmoving. Likewise, there is neither arising nor perishing within the Tathagatagarbha. [8] It is free from conceptual knowledge and views. Like the nature of dharmadhatu, which is ultimate, wholly complete, and pervades all ten directions, such is the Dharma practice [of the Tathagata] of the causal ground."Manjusri, you should know
~ The Sutra of Complete Enlightenment
that all Tathagatas,
from their original-arising causal ground,
use wisdom to enlighten
and penetrate ignorance.
Realizing that ignorance is like
a flower in the sky,
they are thus liberated from the continuance
[of birth and death].
Like a person [seen] in a dream who
cannot be found when [the dreamer] awakens,
awareness is like empty space.
It is impartial and equal, and ever unmoving.
When enlightenment pervades all ten directions,
the Buddha Path is accomplished.
There is no place where illusions vanish,
and there is no attainment
in accomplishing the Buddha Path,
for the intrinsic nature is already wholly complete.
By this, bodhisattvas
can give rise to the bodhi-mind.
Sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age
through this practice will avoid erroneous views. -
Originally posted by Isis:
u have to cultivate Wei Xin Shi Ting (Only Mind is Still Samathi) which is not easy, as only Grand Master Xu Yun had done it. in His books, He wrote that when He went to Tush-ita Heaven, He never saw anyone else who had did it.
What are the conditions for one to be reborn into the
Tush-ita Heaven's inner courtyard .. anyone knows?
Thx
my advice is practice to rebirth in Western Pureland much easier.
/\ -
He never saw anyone else who had did it. hmm... who do you mean? As far as I know there are quite a number of people like Asangha (and one of his disciple or something?) and a number of others who have went to Tushita Courtyard..Originally posted by sinweiy:u have to cultivate Wei Xin Shi Ting (Only Mind is Still Samathi) which is not easy, as only Grand Master Xu Yun had done it. in His books, He wrote that when He went to Tush-ita Heaven, He never saw anyone else who had did it.
my advice is practice to rebirth in Western Pureland much easier.
/\
But I do agree that Pure Land is easier. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
of cos He would have saw Wu-Zhuo (Asangha) who is of the fourth century A. D. Venerable Master Xu Yun is 1840-1959.
He never saw anyone else who had did it. hmm... who do you mean? As far as I know there are quite a number of people like Asangha (and one of his disciple or something?) and a number of others who have went to Tushita Courtyard..
But I do agree that Pure Land is easier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsu_Yun
what i mean is, from the time when Master Xu Yun is alive (onward), He didn't see anybody else who had cultivated and achieve the rebirth in Tusita. those of earlier dates like Wu-Zhuo and a few of His seniors, He did saw.
btw, Tusita is not the same as the five Pure Abodes (suddhavasa) of the Fourth jhana heavens, which are accessible only to non-returners (anagami) and arahants.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
/\ -
interesting... thanks /\
i'm thinking of attaining first or/and second jhana then switch to insight...
to cultivate my mind to be more stable.
My mind is actually quite restless...
i hope i can practise to be more @ the moment.
Good for mental health too. -
Why bother to ask so much? When you die, you will find out the truth. So live your life as you believe and wait to find out the truth.Originally posted by Isis:A friend of mine has told me that by attending the first Jhana in meditation practise, we will automatically be reborn into the first Jhana realm after we pass away? Can we still practise the dharma there?
What are the conditions for one to be reborn into the
Tush-ita Heaven's inner courtyard .. anyone knows?
Thx -
No, you do not attain enlightenment when you die, you attain enlightenment through practising right now as a human.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Why bother to ask so much? When you die, you will find out the truth. So live your life as you believe and wait to find out the truth. -
I see.. thanks for the replyOriginally posted by sinweiy:of cos He would have saw Wu-Zhuo (Asangha) who is of the fourth century A. D. Venerable Master Xu Yun is 1840-1959.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsu_Yun
what i mean is, from the time when Master Xu Yun is alive (onward), He didn't see anybody else who had cultivated and achieve the rebirth in Tusita. those of earlier dates like Wu-Zhuo and a few of His seniors, He did saw.
btw, Tusita is not the same as the five Pure Abodes (suddhavasa) of the Fourth jhana heavens, which are accessible only to non-returners (anagami) and arahants.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
/\ Sorry I posted this reply so late.. seem to have forgotten. -
Originally posted by longchen:
Indeed. Very true.
Insight is also very important... perhaps even more important than Jhana attainments. My point is... with the proper understanding and practice... realisations and progress along the enlightenment path is shorter than one usually expect. Certainly it is less than one kalpa
Yes and very sincere advise. Very true in every sentence. Thank you.
One of the major pitfall is in reading up and absorbing all kinds of informations, regardless of whether they are from religious sources or not. It must be understood that many informations maybe culturally bias. Even if the informations are true, those realised masters wrote from a state that is different from the average readers'. As such, these readers conjure up 'imaginations' and 'speculation' that impede progress. Yes, speculations impede progress. In fact, they are what constitute most of my obstacles.... I spend more time unlearning them instead
These are my experiences and I hope this is helpful.
[/b][/quote]