Original innocence and absolute truth
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The absolute truth is that the present moment is.
This is your true nature, the isness of everything.
Your true nature or absolute truth is also totally empty because everything arises out of nothing.
So your true nature is total emptyness but also complete fullness because your true nature, the present moment, encompasses everything.
Now, let's talk about relative truth.
Relative truth exists on the level of concepts or ideas.
It exists on the level of the mind.
So this is where original sin and original innocence belongs, as a relative truth, not an absolute truth.
For their are no concepts (ideas) in absolute truth.
Original sin is (the mind) grasping or identifying with ideas or thoughts.
And of course the main idea that is grasped is that I am a separate individual from the rest of the world, and therefore so are you.
When you believe that thought, then you look at the world in a peculiar kind of way. Because everything you see in the world, you either need to have it or own it, or you need to protect yourself from it.
Original innocence is a quiet mind that is not grasping onto ideas anymore.
Original innocence looks and sees everything without interpretation, without separation.
In original innocence you love your neighbour as yourself because you see your neighbour is yourself.
All is One. -
Hi JonLS, thanks for sharing again. Very nicely writtenOriginally posted by JonLS:The absolute truth is that the present moment is.
This is your true nature, the isness of everything.
Your true nature or absolute truth is also totally empty because everything arises out of nothing.
So your true nature is total emptyness but also complete fullness because your true nature, the present moment, encompasses everything.
Now, let's talk about relative truth.
Relative truth exists on the level of concepts or ideas.
It exists on the level of the mind.
So this is where original sin and original innocence belongs, as a relative truth, not an absolute truth.
For their are no concepts (ideas) in absolute truth.
Original sin is (the mind) grasping or identifying with ideas or thoughts.
And of course the main idea that is grasped is that I am a separate individual from the rest of the world, and therefore so are you.
When you believe that thought, then you look at the world in a peculiar kind of way. Because everything you see in the world, you either need to have it or own it, or you need to protect yourself from it.
Original innocence is a quiet mind that is not grasping onto ideas anymore.
Original innocence looks and sees everything without interpretation, without separation.
In original innocence you love your neighbour as yourself because you see your neighbour is yourself.
All is One.
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Yes JonLS.
Perception is formed when identification is made and a moment of experience is being assigned a label. Consciousness becomes a stream of perceptions.
In a state of continuous bare experience, neither is there an external world out there nor an internal world in here taking place within consciousness. Without symbols, there is no layering and nothing to divide. In direct experience, everything is really it!
However there is another aspect of consciousness, it is its incessant habit of recording. This aspect has profound implication on our daily experiences. Even after the experience of no-self, a mind is not free from the imprints of ‘physical limitations’. Just like science needs highly precise equipment to penetrate and understand the quantum behavior of sub-atomic particles, sharp and deep clarity is necessary to experience “out-of-the-box” of our emptiness nature, the propensities must subside to a great degree.
To have a full picture of pure pristine nature, the luminous radiance, the workings of propensities and our emptiness nature must all be experienced.
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Thank you for these words Thusness, they have penetrated very deeply because, on some level, they are recognized.Originally posted by Thusness:Yes JonLS.
Perception is formed when identification is made and a moment of experience is being assigned a label. Consciousness becomes a stream of perceptions.
In a state of continuous bare experience, neither is there an external world out there nor an internal world in here taking place within consciousness. Without symbols, there is no layering and nothing to divide. In direct experience, everything is really it!
However there is another aspect of consciousness, it is its incessant habit of recording. This aspect has profound implication on our daily experiences. Even after the experience of no-self, a mind is not free from the imprints of ‘physical limitations’. Just like science needs highly precise equipment to penetrate and understand the quantum behavior of sub-atomic particles, sharp and deep clarity is necessary to experience “out-of-the-box” of our emptiness nature, the propensities must subside to a great degree.
To have a full picture of pure pristine nature, the luminous radiance, the workings of propensities and our emptiness nature must all be experienced. -
An innocent mind
In the sense of original innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is quiescent (quiet, still, surrendered).
This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's true nature.
It is no longer making efforts to "know" or "understand" something.
Instead, there is resting in one's true nature, in being.
This is about letting go of the need to know.
And trusting.
And just being.
True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance. -
To find one that can completely surrender and totally be is extremely rare. Not even one in millions. Yet in deep sleep, all has to let go. How can one be denied such a precious state of beingness.Originally posted by JonLS:An innocent mind
In the sense of original innocence and original sin, an innocent mind is one which is quiescent (quiet, still, surrendered).
This means that the mind is no longer searching for it's true nature.
It is no longer making efforts to "know" or "understand" something.
Instead, there is resting in one's true nature, in being.
This is about letting go of the need to know.
And trusting.
And just being.
True freedom lies in surrender and acceptance.
For a person that has experienced no-self (non-duality), deep sleep is even more important. It is the completion of a full cycle of non-duality and natural beingness.
But this may not be the case for one that clings to the "Eternal Witnessing". There is a very subtle holding in them for mantaining this witnessing subconciously thereby denying them from naturally going into deep sleep. If it reaches a point that presents itself as a problem, it is a signal to the practitioner that it is time to let go and dissolve the holding of the Witness, the center. It will be tough to simply try just "let go" of the center and if this is the case, an insight into our "emptiness nature" may help.
Only after going through a full cycle of natural non-duality and beingness in all three states will a practitioner sleep be shorten. I called this the second cycle of non-duality. -
Hi Thusness,
Thank you for that reply.
There is something else I would like to share with you.
There is an experience that is ongoing.
It involves the center of my being.
The center of my being opens up and an energy comes flooding in (arises).
This energy is pure, it is undifferienciated, it is pure consciousness, pure isness.
It is breaking through the dream of "my life" as a separate "person" in time.
It is pure isness.
Bringing me back to the present moment.
All else is just appearance.
All else is just a dream, just manifestation.
Do you recognize what I am saying? -
Yes JonLS, I know what you meant. It is also this vitality aspect of Presence that took over the main role during deep sleep. For me it has been ongoing till now, powerfully presence. When the mind is not making interpretations and the pure energy felt directly in its raw state, it is felt as vibrational, continuously dancing. In a pool of saliva, at the back of forehead, at crown center, on top of your head, tongue, all cells seem dancing vibrantly everywhere. It is as if you have touched 'pure life' and brings whatever in contact to life. The 'beingness' is charged powerfully by this vitality. It forms part of the clarity, bliss and joy. It is one of the core aspects of Presence, not just the knowingness. When the aspects of clear knowingness, vitality and self propensity are fused, Presence is shaped and seemed to come from a 'center', that 'center' in actual case it is rather a sensation of a 'mysterious depth', it should not be localized. Drop that ‘center’, allow the flow to arise from the mysterious deep of nowhere, from the beingness of the arising phenomena itself, no attempt is made to sink back to a center; there is no need to; it connects All.Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Thusness,
Thank you for that reply.
There is something else I would like to share with you.
There is an experience that is ongoing.
It involves the center of my being.
The center of my being opens up and an energy comes flooding in (arises).
This energy is pure, it is undifferienciated, it is pure consciousness, pure isness.
It is breaking through the dream of "my life" as a separate "person" in time.
It is pure isness.
Bringing me back to the present moment.
All else is just appearance.
All else is just a dream, just manifestation.
Do you recognize what I am saying?
ps: knowingness and vitality cannot be separated, it is for discussion sake that i separate them. -
Hi JonLS,
There is nothing wrong with the Isness experienced as “I AM” except that it is skewed towards the ‘thought’ realm. The cognitive mind is overwhelmed by the transcendental experience and wants to monopolize the entirety of Presence. As such the purity is distorted. Full and equal authentication of Isness as experienced in “I AM” must also be fully experienced in all appearance and to all moments of manifestation. When the ‘center’ is dissolved, no preference can be made between “Amness” and Appearances”, nothing can be more clear, All is it! -
Thank you for your wonderful replies Thusness,
Presence is shaped and seemed to come from a 'center', that 'center' in actual case it is rather a sensation of a 'mysterious depth', it should not be localized.
Yes, this feels right to me.
I use the term "center of my being" because Eckhart used the phrase "the opening of the inner dimension", he said it is in the center of your body.
It does seem to come from there, but I am also aware that it does not appear or feel to be from this dimension of time and space.There is nothing wrong with the Isness experienced as “I AM” except that it is skewed towards the ‘thought’ realm. The cognitive mind is overwhelmed by the transcendental experience and wants to monopolize the entirety of Presence. As such the purity is distorted.
Yes, I notice the mind is quite active during the experience, always trying to interpret what is happening.Full and equal authentication of Isness as experienced in “I AM” must also be fully experienced in all appearance and to all moments of manifestation. When the ‘center’ is dissolved, no preference can be made between “Amness” and Appearances”, nothing can be more clear, All is it!
I know what you are saying here!
I have experienced, for more than a day, the fact that all there was, was the appearance and that's all of it!
It is one complete whole!
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Yes!Originally posted by JonLS:I know what you are saying here!
I have experienced, for more than a day, the fact that all there was, was the appearance and that's all of it!
It is one complete whole! -
By the way, over the years I have refined the term "naturalness" into "spontaneously arise due to conditions". When condition is, Presence Is. Not bounded within a space-time continuum. It helps to dissolve the centricity. See whether it syncs in you...
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In my experience, Presence is stronger at some times than at other times, and in this sense, it is spontaneously arising.Originally posted by Thusness:By the way, over the years I have refined the term "naturalness" into "spontaneously arise due to conditions". When condition is, Presence Is. Not bounded within a space-time continuum. It helps to dissolve the centricity. See whether it syncs in you...
However I'm not aware of any conditions necessary for Presence.
Having said that, when Presence is strong the thoughts and egoic feelings are not present, or at least they are very weak and in the background. Are these the conditions?
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Hi JonLS,
Dwell a lil on religion
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Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the diversities of appearances? “Sweetness” of sugar isn’t the “blueness” color of the sky. Same applies to “AMness”… all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their ‘forms’. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
Although there is non-dual in Adviata and no-self in Buddhism, Adviata rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic ), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change. -
this is more of philosophy .Originally posted by JonLS:The absolute truth is that the present moment is.
This is your true nature, the isness of everything.
Your true nature or absolute truth is also totally empty because everything arises out of nothing.
So your true nature is total emptyness but also complete fullness because your true nature, the present moment, encompasses everything.
Now, let's talk about relative truth.
Relative truth exists on the level of concepts or ideas.
It exists on the level of the mind.
So this is where original sin and original innocence belongs, as a relative truth, not an absolute truth.
For their are no concepts (ideas) in absolute truth.
Original sin is (the mind) grasping or identifying with ideas or thoughts.
And of course the main idea that is grasped is that I am a separate individual from the rest of the world, and therefore so are you.
When you believe that thought, then you look at the world in a peculiar kind of way. Because everything you see in the world, you either need to have it or own it, or you need to protect yourself from it.
Original innocence is a quiet mind that is not grasping onto ideas anymore.
Original innocence looks and sees everything without interpretation, without separation.
In original innocence you love your neighbour as yourself because you see your neighbour is yourself.
All is One.
nicely written though .... -
This is not philosophy just, because philosophy just deals on the level of concepts, theories. Yet JonLS wrote from his true inner experienceOriginally posted by Taiwanpolitics:this is more of philosophy .
nicely written though .... Through the recognition of our true nature/Buddha Nature.. so at the same time it can be said to transcend it.A scholar once asked, "Buddhism seems a great theory, and I find it useful. Is Buddhism a Philosophy?"
"Master Shen-Kai once said 'Buddhism is not Philosophy but beyond Philosophy,'" I replied.
"Why so?" The scholar asked.
"Philosophy is a system of thoughts based upon logical reasoning." I answered. "However, Buddhism is about realizing truths while detaching from thoughts." -
I found this quite good:Originally posted by Thusness:Although there is non-dual in Adviata and no-self in Buddhism, Adviata rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic ), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.http://www.fpmt.org/faq/mod1_faq_p4.asp#3
Oh longchen's one as well..
...As stated in the teachings, buddha nature is defined as the emptiness of the fundamental clear light mind. The clear light of death is still a relative level of mind. But, because of the lack of conceptual thought at this level - its clear, luminous nature - it is see as analogous to buddha nature and used in meditation to approach complete union with buddha nature.
The mirror is an imperfect, but useful, analogy for the mind. Like a mirror mind 'reflects' what it comes in contact with. In that sense it also changes from moment to moment. The basic clear and knowing nature of the mind is sustained, just as the mirror's clear, reflective nature does not change.
That which is clear and knowing (the definition of mind) is eternal, as opposed to permanent. Eternal because it never ceases; it continues in its momentary, ever-changing (impermanent) flow into eternity. So, it is eternal and impermanent....
~ Lama Zopa RinpocheIs there an Eternal Witness?
Edit: Articles by longchen of his insights and experiences on his spiritual path can be read at http://www.dreamdatum.com/articles-path.html
During deep meditative states, an all-pervading Presence is detectable. This Presence, is most often experienced when thoughts are momentarily suspended. In this state, we sense the Eternal Witness.
But does the Eternal Witness truly exist? No.
In the past, I would have thought that it existed... as our true self. Not anymore.
So what causes the impression of the Witness?
From deep meditative observation, the witness is realised to be just an impression that is caused by subtle knowingness and sequential observation. Moment to moment arises in lightning fast speed. The second moment got a subtle imprint of the recently preceded one. This sequential change causes the sense of Subtle Witnessing known as the Eternal Witness.
There is no permanent unchanging Witness, but ever changing moment to moment witnessing. In another word, no permanent 'Eternal Witness' exist. -
From an article on Vipassana written by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.htmlOriginally posted by Thusness:Hi JonLS,
Dwell a lil on religion :
Since appearance is all there is and appearance is really the source, what gives rise to the diversities of appearances? “Sweetness” of sugar isn’t the “blueness” color of the sky. Same applies to “AMness”… all are equally pure, no one state is purer than the other, only condition differs. Conditions are factors that give appearances their ‘forms’. In Buddhism, pristine awareness and conditions are inseparable.
Although there is non-dual in Adviata and no-self in Buddhism, Adviata rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic ), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
...The Sabbasava Sutta expands on this point by listing seven approaches to take in developing dispassion. Vipassana, as a quality of mind, is related to all seven, but most directly with the first: "seeing," i.e., seeing events in terms of the four noble truths and the duties appropriate to them. The remaining six approaches cover ways of carrying out those duties: restraining the mind from focusing on sense data that would provoke unskillful states of mind; reflecting on the appropriate reasons for using the requisites of food, clothing, shelter, and medicine; tolerating painful sensations; avoiding obvious dangers and inappropriate companions; destroying thoughts of sensual desire, ill will, harmfulness, and other unskillful states; and developing the seven factors for Awakening: mindfulness, analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, and equanimity.
Each of these approaches covers a wide subset of approaches. Under "destroying," for instance, one may eliminate an unskillful mental state by replacing it with a skillful one, focusing on its drawbacks, turning one's attention away from it, relaxing the process of thought-fabrication that formed it, or suppressing it with the brute power of one's will (MN 20). Many similar examples could be drawn from other discourses as well. The overall point is that the ways of the mind are varied and complex. Different fermentations can come bubbling up in different guises and respond to different approaches. One's skill as a meditator lies in mastering a variety of approaches and developing the sensitivity to know which approach will work best in which situation.
On a more basic level, however, one needs strong motivation to master these skills in the first place. Because appropriate attention requires abandoning dichotomies that are so basic to the thought patterns of all people — "being/not being" and "me/not me" — meditators need strong reasons for adopting it. This is why the Sabbasava Sutta insists that anyone developing appropriate attention must first must hold the noble ones (here meaning the Buddha and his awakened disciples) in high regard. In other words, one must see that those who have followed the path are truly exemplary. One must also be well-versed in their teaching and discipline. According to MN 117, "being well-versed in their teaching" begins with having conviction in their teachings about karma and rebirth, which provide intellectual and emotional context for adopting the four noble truths as the basic categories of experience. Being well-versed in the discipline of the noble ones would include, in addition to observing the precepts, having some skill in the seven approaches mentioned above for abandoning the fermentations.
Without this sort of background, meditators might bring the wrong attitudes and questions to the practice of watching arising and passing away in the present moment. For instance, they might be looking for a "true self" and end up identifying — consciously or unconsciously — with the vast, open sense of awareness that embraces all change, from which it all seems to come and to which it all seems to return. Or they might long for a sense of connectedness with the vast interplay of the universe, convinced that — as all things are changing — any desire for changelessness is neurotic and life-denying. For people with agendas like these, the simple experience of events arising and passing away in the present won't lead to fivefold knowledge of things as they are. They'll resist recognizing that the ideas they hold to are a fermentation of views, or that the experiences of calm that seem to verify those ideas are simply a fermentation in the form of a state of being. As a result, they won't be willing to apply the four noble truths to those ideas and experiences. Only a person willing to see those fermentations as such, and convinced of the need to transcend them, will be in a position to apply the principles of appropriate attention to them and thus get beyond them... -
how do you know if it isnt something people already take for granted?
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What are you refering to?Originally posted by Eric Cartman:how do you know if it isnt something people already take for granted? -
the Isness part
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Personally, I have learnt that all IS.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:the Isness part
Every moment is as it IS. There can never be a moment that is not as it is.
Isness has a crystal aliveness... clear, joyful and spontaneously manifesting.
Look! See! Isness is always there... but it has been hijacked by 'sense of self'.... or the stream of preferences we call self or soul. Even self and soul IS. ~ Longchen
Please read the entire thread here: Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana Deconstruction of Time
If everyone is able to 'see through' the illusion that the self and the world is inherently existent, and no longer give rise to dualistic thinking, there would be no more fundamental aversion or attraction to phenomena, or what Buddhism say - no more Greed, Hatred and Ignorance. Just Isness. -
noted
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Personally, I have learnt that all IS.
My own experience is that I've found that the Isness of the present moment is It.
Every moment is as it IS. There can never be a moment that is not as it is.
Isness has a crystal aliveness... clear, joyful and spontaneously manifesting.
Look! See! Isness is always there... but it has been hijacked by 'sense of self'.... or the stream of preferences we call self or soul. Even self and soul IS. ~ Longchen
There is nothing needed beyond this.
Rest in just "this".
I open myself up to the vastness that is this present moment. -
Before I was involved in a story of becoming, of needing to know, of needing something other than what is arising in this present moment.
But now I realize that, in my essence, I am this present moment including the emptiness out of which it arises and all appearances also.
It all emanates somewhere from within my gut area.