adolf hitler
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hitler was very strong minded as he himself made germany became to power in WWII.
but then, all the wisdom, strengths were used on the wrong side. -
Before he step up, german was not as powerful as it was before world war I.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Germany then wasn't powerful, in fact, it was powerless. Austria was seperated from Germany and Germany was paying reparations amounting to billions of marks to the winners in the First World War. Germany was not allowed to have tanks in its armies and its civilians starved. Hitler made a choice to get back what the Germans lost. Who could say who was right and who was wrong?
He revived the economy, clear up debts, built up the defense and claim back the lost land. That is good for the people initially, but he later on launched war to conquer other country and has caused the death of hundreds of millions. Can we call it right? -
Can we call the suffering of the German people then right? In fact, when Germany conquered back Austria, Britain and France were preparing a punitive expedition to bring Germany back into line. So Hitler knew that Germany had to become stronger and Germany must wage a total war to keep its status quo. There was no correct choice once Hitler started the rearmament program for Germany's defence.Originally posted by justdoit77:Before he step up, german was not as powerful as it was before world war I.
He revived the economy, clear up debts, built up the defense and claim back the lost land. That is good for the people initially, but he later on launched war to conquer other country and has caused the death of hundreds of millions. Can we call it right? -
I was thinking that it could be collective karma that also prompt his existence and his becoming a leader of a nation.Originally posted by justdoit77:His past life sure has done many good deeds that give him the good karma to be the leader of a powerful nation.
But if without compassion, his good karma will only become his tool to commit sin.
The primary causes of unskilful action or creation of negative karma, to be more precise is
1) Greed or selfish desire,
2) Hatred or anger,
3) Ignorance or delusion.
Known as the "three poisions" in buddhism.
If you look at this carefully, you probably could see these poision at work from all side. -
And I shall ask you ,herzog_zweiOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Germany then wasn't powerful, in fact, it was powerless. Austria was seperated from Germany and Germany was paying reparations amounting to billions of marks to the winners in the First World War. Germany was not allowed to have tanks in its armies and its civilians starved. Hitler made a choice to get back what the Germans lost. Who could say who was right and who was wrong?
Gassing thousand and millions of Jews to death is considered a justified act ,even to the newborn babies ?
Look at Aushwitz , Polish Concentration camp and many other in German territories ?What makes you think this genocide is justified ? -
Excerpted from Wiki:
After the world war one, the allies imposed a series of peace treaties on the defeated Central Powers. The 1919 Versailles Treaty ended the war with Germany. Germany was kept under a food blockade until it signed the treaty, which declared that Germany (and Austria) were responsible for the war and therefore had to pay all its costs. The treaty required Germany to pay enormous annual cash reparations, based on factors including the value of a soldier's life, which it did by borrowing from the United States, until reparations were suspended in 1931. The “Guilt Thesis” became controversial in Britain and the United States. It caused enormous bitterness in Germany, which nationalist movements, especially the Nazis, exploited in the 1920s. (See Dolchstosslegende). Due to this treaty, one of the worst economic collapses in history took place in Germany, resulting in widespread famine, and inflation.
According to my history teacher,if Britain and France hasn't gone too far in exploiting Germany in this treaty, world war II could be avoided.
In buddhism point of view, the three poisons are the main causes of negative karma and sufferings. -
Hitler considered the Jews as traitors from WWI who should be destroyed to the last genome in eugenics terms. I don't consider genocide as justified but Hitler decided that a huge punitive act should prevent any more such traitors from forming in the new Germany.(Go read his speeches and military directives.)Originally posted by bohiruci:And I shall ask you ,herzog_zwei
Gassing thousand and millions of Jews to death is considered a justified act ,even to the newborn babies ?
Look at Aushwitz , Polish Concentration camp and many other in German territories ?What makes you think this genocide is justified ? -
you might want to read on "aryan" before saying that the jews are traitors who did not contribute to germany. The truth is that hitler is pretty much messed up in his head, germany's army was strong due its generals rather than hitler. in fact, he sealed the fate of the war pretty much by giving stupid orders that serve no purpose, for example, hitler ordered to build more fighters-bombers instead of interceptors when germany clearly has the upper hand in aerojet technology.
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Hitler's act of genocide is not a means to an end but an end itself, thats why its called the final solution.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hitler considered the Jews as traitors from WWI who should be destroyed to the last genome in eugenics terms. I don't consider genocide as justified but Hitler decided that a huge punitive act should prevent any more such traitors from forming in the new Germany.(Go read his speeches and military directives.)
Genocide is an abhorrent act and cannot be justified/ rationalized under any circumstances , no ifs, no buts. I am appalled that someone could actually attempt to speak in defense of Hitler. -
It was considered an end to genetically programmed traitors.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Hitler's act of genocide is not a means to an end but an end itself, thats why its called the final solution.
Genocide is an abhorrent act and cannot be justified/ rationalized under any circumstances , no ifs, no buts. I am appalled that someone could actually attempt to speak in defense of Hitler.
You ought to be appalled at yourself for not being rational about understanding why such an artistic genius wanted to commit genocide. How about trying to think with an open mind and not let your gentle nature react? -
Sorry no can do.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:It was considered an end to genetically programmed traitors.
You ought to be appalled at yourself for not being rational about understanding why such an artistic genius wanted to commit genocide. How about trying to think with an open mind and not let your gentle nature react?
The "gentle nature" within me is something I have cultivated a long time to bring it out. I cannot suppress my own Buddha nature to empathize with a tyrant who butchered people by the millions. -
Hitler and many such people thereof are at the ethnocentric level of consciousness.
There are several stages of consciousness and one usually progresses as they age until a certain level (but this stops at different stages for different people, or it may be impeded by a pathology, and also usually one does not reach transpersonal levels unless one has done spiritual practises, with a few exceptions)What Is Enlightenment Magazine
Those interested to read more should grab the book 'A Brief History of Everything' by Ken Wilber from bookstores or library. It does not only discuss the stages of consciousness but everything in an integral view. Interesting read.
Evolving Worldviews, Expanding Self
Although the spectrum of consciousness includes twelve colors to denote
twelve specific levels, stages, structures, or waves of development, for
ease of explanation Wilber often uses a simpler, three- or four level scheme
pioneered by developmental psychologists like Lawrence Kohlberg and Carol
Gilligan. Tracing the most general contours of psychological growth, this
scheme highlights the fact that increasing consciousness corresponds to a
broadening of worldviews and an expansion of one's sense of self.
Egocentric ("me"): A stage characterized by narcissistic self-absorption,
bodily needs and desires, emotional outbursts, unsocialized impulses, and an
incapacity to take the role of the "other"; seen today predominantly in
infants and young children, rebellious teens, wild rock stars, and
criminals. (Infrared to red)
Ethnocentric ("us"): An expansion of self-identity to include one's family,
peers, tribe, race, faith group, or nation; the adoption of socially
conformist rules and roles; commonly seen in children aged seven to
adolescence, religious myths and fundamentalism, the . ,'moral majority,"
Nazis, the KKK, right-wing politics, patriotism, sports teams, school
rivalries. (Amber)
Worldcentric ("all of us"): An even greater expansion of self to embrace all
people, regardless of race, gender, class, or creed; a stage of rationality
that questions rigid belief systems and transcends conventional rules and
roles; commonly seen in late adolescence, social activism, multiculturalism,
science, moral relativism, liberal politics, the "global village," New Age
spirituality; the emergence of integral cognition. (Orange to teal)
Kosmocentric ("all that is"): An identification with all life and
consciousness, human or otherwise, and a deeply felt responsibility for the
evolutionary process as a whole; "superintegral" cognition and values;
innate universal morality; spirituality beyond merely personal motivations;
an emergent capacity, rarely seen anywhere. (Turquoise to clear light)
------------------------------------------------------------
WILBER: Now these stages, which we also call structures or levels, show up
in all human beings, so we have to take them into account. One of the real
problems is that you can have a spiritual experience – a profound taste of
emptiness, or pure nonduality, or absolute oneness, or radiant, luminous
absolute bliss/love – and when you come out of that experience or even while
you're in it, you'll interpret it according to the level or stage you're at.
The evidence for this is now just overwhelming.
So understanding stages is the first piece of the puzzle. The second piece
is states of consciousness. States of consciousness generally tend to come
and go; they are temporary. The natural/meditative ones are waking (gross),
dreaming (subtle), deep steep (causal), witnessing, and nondual. And then
there are nonordinary states, such as drunken states and stoned states. And
you can have any of these state experiences at virtually any level or stage
you're at. You can be at any level and have a waking, dreaming, or deep
steep state. You can be at any level and experience a meditative state. You
can be at any Level and actually go through Zen training. What's so
astonishing is that a Nazi can complete Zen training. That's the point –
states can be experienced at any stage you're at.
[End Quote]
By the way, many psychiatric illnesses can be attributed to various pathologies associated with a particular level of consciousness. Some fragments (may not be all) of their 'self' gets stuck in that particular level of consciousness and turns sour. Read Ken Wilber's books for a very detailed explaination of the whole thing -- he mentioned the pathology (including various personality disorders) for every level of consciousness. For instance, schizoid personality disorder (but not schizo split personality, which is a pathology due to various aspects of self's development at very different stages/not in unity) seems to be an Egocentric consciousness level of pathology... so herzog_zwei might be interested to get the book.
Compassion and loving kindness is very important, it expands one's level of consciousness. But for one who is plagued by a pathology, various kinds of therapies might be needed. -
I am not asking you to empathise with Hitler but to understand that Hitler was a normal person caught between the devil and the deep blue sea when he was elected.(i.e. fulfilling his political promise to the Germans to lead them out of the economic quagmire via aggressive programs and his humanity.)Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Sorry no can do.
The "gentle nature" within me is something I have cultivated a long time to bring it out. I cannot suppress my own Buddha nature to empathize with a tyrant who butchered people by the millions. -
AEN, you read up my article on SPD and yet you claim Ken Wilber's book is being accurate. My article is based off DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria which easily exposes Ken Wilber's book as being illogical. If you should know, SPD is not some dark part of a person's psyche or conciousness but a part of a person's normal life. A SPD sufferer is not egocentric as described by Ken Wilbur but dislikes company of people and the joys of life which can also mean that this person is enlightened.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Those interested to read more should grab the book 'A Brief History of Everything' by Ken Wilber from bookstores or library. It does not only discuss the stages of consciousness but everything in an integral view. Interesting read.
By the way, many psychiatric illnesses can be attributed to various pathologies associated with a particular level of consciousness. Some fragments (may not be all) of their 'self' gets stuck in that particular level of consciousness and turns sour. Read Ken Wilber's books for a very detailed explaination of the whole thing -- he mentioned the pathology (including various personality disorders) for every level of consciousness. For instance, schizoid personality disorder (but not schizo split personality, which is a pathology due to various aspects of self's development at very different stages/not in unity) seems to be an Egocentric consciousness level of pathology... so herzog_zwei might be interested to get the book.
Compassion and loving kindness is very important, it expands one's level of consciousness. But for one who is plagued by a pathology, various kinds of therapies might be needed. -
That I understand. But that fact does not justify him taking the life of millions, nor does it absolve him of his crimes.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I am not asking you to empathise with Hitler but to understand that Hitler was a normal person caught between the devil and the deep blue sea when he was elected.(i.e. fulfilling his political promise to the Germans to lead them out of the economic quagmire via aggressive programs and his humanity.) -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
No, Ken Wilber did not say anything about schizoid being a egocentric pathology. I added that part which I think is a possibility, although it might be completely wrong. Also I am not saying that a person with such pathologies are completely egocentric but are influenced by it because certain parts of his consciousness development gets into problems or some part of his 'self' gets stuck somewhere... and many forms of psychotic disorders are linked to this.
AEN, you read up my article on SPD and yet you claim Ken Wilber's book is being accurate. My article is based off DSM-IV-TR diagnostic criteria which easily exposes Ken Wilber's book as being illogical. If you should know, SPD is not some dark part of a person's psyche or conciousness but a part of a person's normal life. A SPD sufferer is not egocentric as described by Ken Wilbur but dislikes company of people and the joys of life which can also mean that this person is enlightened.
Usually a pathology happens when a person starts to transcend a previous stage of consciousness but during that process something wrong happened with one of the steps and this causes a pathology.
Egocentric does not necessarily have to mean a dark part of one's psyche but more like a worldview and perspective of things, and a part of an individual's development of consciousness which progresses as they age. This usually isn't a problem until something goes wrong in an individual's development and turns into a pathology. -
http://www.adler.edu/AdlerAssets/documents/Faculty/457_syllabus_Sutherland.pdf
"ADLER SCHOOL OF PROFESSIONAL PSYCHOLOGY
COURSE SYLLABUS"
"#457 Historical & Theoretical Perspectives of Art Therapy (2 cr)"
......5. Developmental sub-stages and possible pathology stemming from faulty early
object relations....
......b. Practicing differentiation (4 months to 12 months): schizoid character
formation as result of denial of attachment.....
Also see, Ken Wilber's listed developmental lines and the therapies that correlates to each fulcrum's pathologies: http://www.zen-tower.com/english/irm/irm_start.htm --0-1 Perception Autistic Physiostates Material Exchange Undifferentiated Matter 1 Doing First: Body analysis and Gestalt First, Second Place
0-1 Perception F-1 Pysical Self Psychotic Regressive Therapy Matter 1 Hatha Yoga Awareness Continuum Body Analysis Energy Balance (JinShin Jyitsu)
It seems that schizoid is a pre-egocentric pathology belonging to Fulcrum 1.
Here's another interesting read.. http://www.du.edu/~psherry/objrels.htm - object relations theory: mahler & horner. -
The reason why Germans considered Jews and communists as traitors is because due to their pride, they have to find some scapegoats to blame for losing the war. Although the jews and communists are actually innocent.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Hitler considered the Jews as traitors from WWI who should be destroyed to the last genome in eugenics terms. I don't consider genocide as justified but Hitler decided that a huge punitive act should prevent any more such traitors from forming in the new Germany.(Go read his speeches and military directives.) -
AEN, what nonsense are you talking again? Jews are among the richest people in Europe at that time but yet they didn't contribute to the war effort like the common Germans as it isn't their war. This is common knowledge.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:The reason why Germans considered Jews and communists as traitors is because due to their pride, they have to find some scapegoats to blame for losing the war. Although the jews and communists are actually innocent. -
Yes, Hitler is at fault but then again, if you were in his position at that time, you would have probably done the same.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:That I understand. But that fact does not justify him taking the life of millions, nor does it absolve him of his crimes. -
Are you talking about psychology or psychiatry?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:http://www.adler.edu/AdlerAssets/documents/Faculty/457_syllabus_Sutherland.pdf
"ADLER SCHOOL OF PROFESSIONAL PSYCHOLOGY
COURSE SYLLABUS"
"#457 Historical & Theoretical Perspectives of Art Therapy (2 cr)"
......5. Developmental sub-stages and possible pathology stemming from faulty early
object relations....
......b. Practicing differentiation (4 months to 12 months): schizoid character
formation as result of denial of attachment.....
Also see, Ken Wilber's listed developmental lines and the therapies that correlates to each fulcrum's pathologies: http://www.zen-tower.com/english/irm/irm_start.htm --
It seems that schizoid is a pre-egocentric pathology belonging to Fulcrum 1.
Here's another interesting read.. http://www.du.edu/~psherry/objrels.htm - object relations theory: mahler & horner. -
No, I am pretty sure I wouldn't.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Yes, Hitler is at fault but then again, if you were in his position at that time, you would have probably done the same. -
Both.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Are you talking about psychology or psychiatry? -
Hi, my humble opinion is that adolf hilter is like any other sentient beings who has committed evil karma due to delusion, hatred and selfish desire.
He is also suffering.
As buddhist, we should also practise and be compassionate to Adolf hitler.
May he be free from suffering.
May he attains enlightenment.
May he helps other sentient beings be free of suffering.
/\ -
My sis said that she saw a church with a banner "Jesus loves Osama" to showcase Jesus Christ's unconditional love for all creation. Maybe Buddhism can do something similar, "Buddha loves Hitler"Originally posted by Isis:Hi, my humble opinion is that adolf hilter is like any other sentient beings who has committed evil karma due to delusion, hatred and selfish desire.
He is also suffering.
As buddhist, we should also practise and be compassionate to Adolf hitler.
May he be free from suffering.
May he attains enlightenment.
May he helps other sentient beings be free of suffering.
/\