be in touch with unseen nature - Andrew PK Yap
-
I think that the whole purpose of meditating is for the suppression of natural thoughts and to be in touch with your spiritual nature or Buddha Nature as Buddhists would say and Holy Spirit as Christians would say. I think Hindus call it Atman but Muslims, I am not so sure. Islam could be simply practice and obeying commandments.
-
Yes. Christians call it Spirit or God, Taoists call it Tao, Hindus call it Atman/Brahman. Buddhism calls it Buddha Nature but it may not be exactly the same as I am going to explain. Islam's mystical part is called SufismOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:I think that the whole purpose of meditating is for the suppression of natural thoughts and to be in touch with your spiritual nature or Buddha Nature as Buddhists would say and Holy Spirit as Christians would say. I think Hindus call it Atman but Muslims, I am not so sure. Islam could be simply practice and obeying commandments.
A friend of mine sent me a youtube video of Rumi's poem (Rumi is a Sufi): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2nYZSoIMY8 called "Become the sky". I liked it. Anyway I also posted about Sufism in the Islamic forum, you can go and check it out.
Anyway what you said is partly true. However it is not the whole picture because although most of them attain an intuitive/direct experience of the Luminosity (lucidity, awareness) aspect of Buddha Nature, they quickly grasp it and turn it into 'Atman'. Due to the poverty of the conceptual analytical mind he will be unable to see the emptiness nature of this luminosity.
So in the recent topic I posted, Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness, it says regarding our Buddha Nature,Some Tirthikas call it by the name Atman or "the Self."
Who are Tirthikas? They are the outer paths, non-Buddhist mystics, Hindus, who experienced the luminosity aspect of our Buddha Nature. They are the ones who experience it as Atman, the Self, the background.
Padmasambhava also said:The Tirthikas who are outsiders see all this in terms of the dualism of eternalism as against nihilism.
Thusness recently said: "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion.
and,
Although there is non-dual in Adviata and no-self in Buddhism, Adviata rest in an “Ultimate Background” (making it dualistic Question ), whereas Buddhism eliminates the background completely and rest in the emptiness nature of phenomena; arising and ceasing is where pristine awareness is. In Buddhism, there is no eternality, only timeless continuity (timeless as in vividness in present moment but change and continue like a wave pattern). There is no changing thing, only change.
Please also watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa4WtuR0wbY (Descartes: Reviving the West's Greatest Modern Vedantist)
These people usually hold onto it as a constant, a background where manifestation pops in and out of existence. The 'background' is actually an illusion, and the teachings of No-Self and Non Duality is to break this mirror, this illusion, and realise that Manifestation IS Source. See Thusness's six stages of experience, part of it is in transcending this Eternal Witness/Self as background: Hi everyone
Lastly, suppression of thoughts is not the right way. Thoughts should be seen as self-arising and self-liberating, without thoughts, we cannot possibly function in the real world. There are two kinds of meditation. One is Shamatha meditation. In Shamatha meditation, the mind concentrates on a fixed meditation object, and becomes absorbed in the meditation objects, thus there are no other thoughts. This practise can lead to samadhi, jhanas, and even psychic powers, but this practise does not lead to liberation, enlightenment. It is important as well, like gathering strength for Vipashyana practise, but by itself it cannot lead to liberation. The other kind of meditation is called Vipashyana. This practise leads to insights, enlightenment and liberation. What is that?Kalu Rinpoche says in his book "Luminous Mind":
"When the mind abides in its natural state, its profound nature can gradually reveal itself, and all its qualities are uncovered. This is Vipassyana practise... Vipassyana...is to see clearly, to have insight into mind's nature and clear vision of its basic state.
...there are differences between the approaches of Shamatha and Vipassyana. Shamatha uses an object or reference, although a subtle one, upon which the mind meditates; a dualistic relationship is established between the mind and its object. In Vipassyana, however, mind and object are essentially one, not two, and remain this way.
...In Vipassyana, many thoughts go through the mind, but they are niether suppressed or followed. They arise and pass away without our having to interfere..Vipassyana...consists of letting go of thoughts, letting them be pacified and liberated by them selves..."
He mentions to always verify these experiences with a qualified teacher, to prevent from going astray.
JM/YTSome more about the difference between Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight):
btw, are you linked to Casino_King?
...There is a lot of confusion on the differences between concentration practices and insight practices. This may be caused in part by the “Mushroom Factor,” or may be due in part to other factors, such as concentration practice being easier than insight practices and distinctly more pleasant most of the time. Concentration practices (samatha or samadhi practices) are meditation on a concept, an aggregate of many transient sensations, whereas insight practice is meditation on the many transient sensations just as they are. When doing concentration practices, one purposefully tries to fix or freeze the mind in a specific state, called an “absorption,” “jhana” or “dyana.” While reality cannot be frozen in this way, the illusion of solidity and stability certainly can be cultivated, and this is concentration practice.
Insight practices are designed to penetrate the Three Illusions of permanence, satisfactoriness and separate self so as to attain freedom. (N.B., the illusion of satisfactoriness has to do with the false sense that continuing to mentally create the illusion of a separate, permanent self will be satisfactory or helpful, and is not referring to some oppressive and fun-denying angst trip). Insight practices (various types of vipassana, dzogchen, zazen, etc.) lead to the progressive stages of the progress of insight. Insight practices tend to be difficult and somewhat disconcerting, as they are designed to deconstruct our deluded and much cherished views of the world and ourselves, though they can sometimes be outrageously blissful for frustratingly short periods....
~ Dharma Dan
He is also anti casino one.. 
-
More on the difference between 'not attaching to thoughts' and 'suppressing thoughts':
(Namelessness, an ex moderator, posted this):
No thought, no form and no attachment is the quintessence of the Sutra. But it is not annihilation. It means to be detached from all thought, form and attachment.Originally posted by namelessness:Good Friends, it has been the tradition of our school to take 'No Thought' as the object, 'No Form' as the basis, and 'No Attachment' as the fundamental principle. 'No Form' means to be apart from the notion of forms when in contact with forms. 'No Thought' means to be away from thought when thought arises. 'No Attachment' is the characteristic of our nature. All things - good or bad, beautiful or ugly - should be treated as void. Even in time of disputes and quarrels we should treat our intimates and our enemies alike and never think of retaliation. From thought to thought, let the past be dead. If we allow our thoughts, past, present, and future, to link up in a series, it is called confinement. If we never let our mind attach to anything from thought to thought, and there will be no confinement. This is why 'No Attachment' is taken as the fundamental principle. Good Friends, to free ourselves from all external forms is called 'No Form'. When we are in a position to do so, the nature of Dharma will be pure. This is why 'No Form' is taken as the basis.Good Friends, to keep our mind free from defilement under all circumstances is called 'No Thought'. Our mind should stand aloof from circumstances, and allow no reaction to our mind from circumstances. But it is a great mistake to suppress our mind from all thinking; for even if we succeed in getting rid of all thoughts, and die immediately thereafter, still we shall be reincarnated elsewhere. Mark this, treaders of the Path. It is bad enough for a man to commit blunders from not knowing the meaning of the Dharma, but how much worse would it be to encourage others to follow suit? Being deluded, he sees not and in addition he blasphemes the Buddhist Canon. Therefore 'No Thought' is taken as the object.
Here the patriarch taught us how to be away from our thought. This is difficult because it will take us many years to practice that. But after that, our thoughts would be vanished naturally. That’s how ‘No thought’ can be accomplished. So it is not wise to suppress our mind from thinking, for whatever is suppressed will definitely strike back.
Good Friends, let me explain more fully why we take 'No Thought' as our object. It is because there is a type of man under delusion who boasts of the realization of the Self-nature; but being carried away by circumstances, ideas rise in his mind, followed by erroneous views that are the source of all sorts of false notions and defilements. In the Self-nature, there is intrinsically nothing to be attained. To say that there is attainment, and to talk thoughtlessly on merits or demerits are erroneous views and defilements. For this reason we take 'No Thought' as the object of our School.
Good Friends, what is that should be 'No'? What is that should be 'Thought'? 'No' means to have no dualistic and all defiling conceptions. 'Thought' means to fix our mind on the true nature of Tathata, for Tathata is the quintessence of thought, and thought is the result of the activity of Tathata. It is the positive essence of Tathata - not the sense organs - which gives rise to 'thought'. Tathata bears its own attribute, and therefore it can give rise to 'thought'. Without Tathata the sense organs and the sense objects would perish immediately.
Good Friends, because it is the attribute of Tathata which gives rise to 'thought', our sense organs - in spite of their functioning in seeing, hearing, touching, knowing, etc. - need not be tainted or defiled in all circumstances, and our true nature may be 'self-manifested' all the time. Therefore the Sutra says, "Even all Dharmas can be easily distinguished, the 'First Principle' is still immovable"
We still need to distinquish things in order to survive. The key to non-duality is to find our inner An-Hsiang first, and let An-Hsiang be the only response we have to all circumstances. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
[b]More on No-Thought:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html
III. Also distinctive of Dogen's account of Shikantaza is that it is the practice of "without thinking" (hishiryo): which is also called no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin), the essence of Zen Enlightenment. Here we shall discuss "thinking," "not-thinking" and "without thinking."
A. THINKING (shiryo): This is our habitual tendency to stay in the mode of conceptualizing thought.
1. About "thinking" a) Noetic Attitude: positional (either affirming or negating); b) Noematic Content: conceptualized objects.
a) Noetic Attitude is positional (either affirming or negating): A subject is adopting an intentional stance toward an object and, specifically, thinking about it in either a positive or negative way: "This is an X" or "This is not an X," "Do X" or "Do not do X."
(1) Consciousness is an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object. The subject is a cognitive agent.
b) Noematic Content: X is an intentional object pointed to and conceived through our thoughts.
2. "Thinking" can be pictured as follows:
c) Aspects of "thinking":
(1) Subject-object division present: an active subject thinks an object.
(2) Non-immediacy: We do not experience the object immediately but only at a distance, as removed subjects, and only through the thoughts we have of the object.
(3) Non-fullness: We do not experience the object in its fullness or "suchness" but, rather, only as filtered through our thinking about it.
B. NOT-THINKING (fushiryo): About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: positional (only negating); (2) noematic content: thinking (as objectified).
1. Noetic attitude is positional (only negating): Subject is agent seeking to suppress its thinking.
2. Noematic content: The object is now the "second-order" object "thinking about X."
"Not-thinking" can be pictured as follows:
3. Aspects of "not-thinking": Same as for "thinking."
a) Consciousness is still an intentional-vector proceeding from a subject to the object. The subject is still functioning as agent, even if one trying to bring an end to its own agency.
C. WITHOUT THINKING (hishiryo): This is no-thought (munen; wu-nien) or no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin): pure immediacy in the fullness of things as they are.
1. About "not-thinking": (1) noetic attitude: nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating); (2) noematic content: pure presence of things as they are (genjokoan).
a) Noetic attitude is nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating): Consciousness is no longer an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object but is, rather, an open dynamic field in which objects present themselves.
b) Noematic content: The object is no longer an object that is the target of an intentional act but is, rather, the object itself as it presents itself within the open dynamic field of consciousness.
c) Aspects of "without thinking":
(1) No subject-object distinction: The subject has disappeared—this being the Zen interpretation of Buddhist anatta or no-mind.
(2) Immediacy: Without a subject standing back, the experience is one of immediacy within the dynamic field of consciousness.
(3) Fullness: Because the object is not filtered through an intentional act, it presents itself in its fullness.
(4) Such immediacy and fullness are genjokoan, "pure presence of things as they are."
It is a serious mistake in the understanding of Zen to refer merely to the "denial" or "cessation" of "conceptual thinking." Regardless of whether or not it can be proven than the pre-Buddhist Sanskrit etymology of the term Dhyana can be shown to have no-thought connotations, the main concern here is the semantic development undergone by the Chinese term ch'an in the course of the production of the Ch'an texts in East Asia.
It is quite clear that in Ch'an Buddhism, no-mind, rather than referring to an absence of thought, refers to the condition of not being trapped in thoughts, not adhering to a certain conceptual habit or position.
The error of interpretation made by many scholars (and by Zen practitioners as well) lies precisely in taking the term "no-thought" to refer to some kind of permanent, or ongoing absence of thought. While this assumption is routinely made, it is impossible to corroborate it in the Ch'an canon. If we study the seminal texts carefully, we do find a description of the experience of an instantaneous severing of thought that occurs in the course of a thoroughgoing pursuit of a Buddhist meditative exercise.
Nowhere in the Platform Sutra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Diamond Sutra, or any other major Ch'an text, is the term "no-mind" explained to be a permanent incapacitation of the thinking faculty or the permanent cessation of all conceptual activity. (source)[/b] -
Hello, I am Andrew PK Yap in case you have not realised it...
I wonder if you understand all those extracts that you cut and paste. There are many levels to climb and if you aim too high you become "blur" and learn nothing from it.
The first thing you might want to do is to categorise which level those things you extract are at/for.
Secondly, you would want to fit the right level "instructions" to the right person.
I understand that this can be very difficult in an open forum.
Maybe for me to say "suppress" your thoughts is not a good word. It is more "relinquish" of your thoughts.
The extracts you provided regarding Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight) are very useful for beginners but for those seeking to move a little further, try to observe what happens when you ""relinquish" your own thoughts. -
Hi, usually for most people realisation of our true nature is through gradual practising the teachings of the Buddha and thus attaining the insights into one's true nature, so one must have certain knowledge of the Buddhist teachings and practises. For beginners they have to start from basics. It is also important to find a highly enlightened teacher and learn from him/her as this can accelerate the path a lot. What I am saying here is a brief overview on the matters.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Hello, I am Andrew PK Yap in case you have not realised it...
I wonder if you understand all those extracts that you cut and paste. There are many levels to climb and if you aim too high you become "blur" and learn nothing from it.
The first thing you might want to do is to categorise which level those things you extract are at/for.
Secondly, you would want to fit the right level "instructions" to the right person.
I understand that this can be very difficult in an open forum.
Maybe for me to say "suppress" your thoughts is not a good word. It is more "relinquish" of your thoughts.
The extracts you provided regarding Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight) are very useful for beginners but for those seeking to move a little further, try to observe what happens when you ""relinquish" your own thoughts.
But of course if you have more to ask or discuss here you can always do so.. -
It is actually a cycle. That is to say, you observe or you realise and then you refer to the Buddhist teachings and you observe or you realise and then you refer to the Buddhist teachings...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi, usually for most people realisation of our true nature is through practising the teachings of the Buddha and thus attaining the insights into one's true nature, so one must have certain knowledge of the Buddhist teachings and practises. It is also important to find a highly enlightened teacher and learn from him/her as this can accelerate the path a lot. What I am saying here is a brief overview on the matters.
That is for people who can "learn" or "self-teach".
It is pointless to cram your head with "teachings" Buddhist or otherwise...
Some people will come along and give you pointers at the right time... -
is andrew PK yap someone famous or what?
-
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Erm you can say so la.. but still to begin practising you need to have basic knowledge of the teachings and practises, otherwise you can't even start to begin with.
[b]It is actually a cycle. That is to say, you observe or you realise and then you refer to the Buddhist teachings and you observe or you realise and then you refer to the Buddhist teachings...
That is for people who can "learn" or "self-teach".
It is pointless to cram your head with "teachings" Buddhist or otherwise...
Some people will come along and give you pointers at the right time...[/b]
Also it is important to have someone highly enlightened to guide you as well. You can self learn, but if no one to guide you, it can be more difficult and easier to deviate. -
Living itself is the practice. What is required of you is to "make sense" or "be aware" of what is going on. What is going on within yourself is the most important of this "awareness".Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Erm you can say so la.. but still to begin practising you need to have basic knowledge of the teachings and practises, otherwise you can't even start to begin with. -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
You're talking about the 'mindfulness' aspect, which is one of the factors of the 8 fold path leading to enlightenment.. which is also a very important aspect.
Living itself is the practice. What is required of you is to "make sense" or "be aware" of what is going on. What is going on within yourself is the most important of this "awareness".[/b]
You're right about "being aware", however it is not the mind just the "making sense" of what is going on. Maybe you can read more about Mindfulness here, a very good article: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mfneng/mind13.htm -
If you stick with "reality" how can you deviate? Once you are outside reality, it is called "mental illness".Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Also it is important to have someone highly enlightened to guide you as well. You can self learn, but if no one to guide you, it can be more difficult and easier to deviate.
It is up to you to "evaluate" whatever teaching is offered you. You do not take the words of someone just because he/she claims to be "highly enlightened".
You do not give up your intelligence! You are moving upwards, not downwards. You are becoming more intelligent and not becoming more stupid. -
I am not talking about doctrine here. I am talking about practice. I am talking about "purpose" of meditating and the next step after Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight).Originally posted by An Eternal Now:You're talking about the 'mindfulness' aspect, which is one of the factors of the 8 fold path leading to enlightenment.. which is also a very important aspect.
You're right about "being aware", however it is not the mind just the "making sense" of what is going on. Maybe you can read more about Mindfulness here, a very good article: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mfneng/mind13.htm -
Yes Buddhism teaches people to stick with reality, however we must be able to differentiate what is 'Ultimate Reality' and what is 'Relative Truths'. Relative truths are the ordinary "this and that", "right or wrong", they are truths in the realm of time and space.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:If you stick with "reality" how can you deviate? Once you are outside reality, it is called "mental illness".
It is up to you to "evaluate" whatever teaching is offered you. You do not take the words of someone just because he/she claims to be "highly enlightened".
You do not give up your intelligence! You are moving upwards, not downwards. You are becoming more intelligent and not becoming more stupid.
Buddhism does not only teach about knowing relative truths but to eventually realise the Ultimate Reality. Mindfulness practise is not just about the mind making sense of what is happening, it is a present moment awareness whether or not there is thoughts making sense of what is happening.
Therefore like I said it is important to learn what is Buddhism first and be under the guidance of someone ahead of you in the path to guide you to realise enlightenment. This enlightenment is not about realising relative truths which you can discern with your intelligence, but it is about realising the ultimate truth that is all always so, all along.
Of course still, we should evaluate whether the teaching helps us, before we practise it. Regarding this, please see Kalama Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html -
There is no next step after Shamatha and Vipashyana, but there are stages of attainment as a result of Shamatha and Vipashyana practise. Shamatha leads to 8 stages of Jhanas, while Vipashyana also leads to progressive levels of insights.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I am not talking about doctrine here. I am talking about practice. I am talking about "purpose" of meditating and the next step after Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight).
Then after Fruition, there are still various levels of attainments before full enlightenment. For example in the Arhat path, there is 4 stages before Arhatship, while in the Bodhisattva path, there are 10 Bhumi stages.
But anyway for a beginner we should always start from the basics.
I got to go for now.. talk to you later -
If you cannot make sense of relative truths, can you ever hope to understand Ultimate Truths? Get your own life in order first before you start to talk about Ultimate Truths. Otherwise it can very well be a cop out.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes Buddhism teaches people to stick with reality, however we must be able to differentiate what is 'Ultimate Reality' and what is 'Relative Truths'. Relative truths are the ordinary "this and that", "right or wrong", they are truths in the realm of time and space.
Buddhism does not only teach about knowing relative truths but to eventually realise the Ultimate Reality. Mindfulness practise is not just about the mind making sense of what is happening, it is a present moment awareness whether or not there is thoughts making sense of what is happening.
Therefore like I said it is important to learn what is Buddhism first and be under the guidance of someone ahead of you in the path to guide you to realise enlightenment. This enlightenment is not about realising relative truths which you can discern with your intelligence, but it is about realising the ultimate truth that is all always so, all along.
Of course still, we should evaluate whether the teaching helps us, before we practise it. Regarding this, please see Kalama Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html -
yes i agreed.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I think that the whole purpose of meditating is for the suppression of natural thoughts and to be in touch with your spiritual nature or Buddha Nature as Buddhists would say and Holy Spirit as Christians would say. I think Hindus call it Atman but Muslims, I am not so sure. Islam could be simply practice and obeying commandments.
But not all who meditate aim for relinquishing thoughts and get in touch of there spiritual self. Some just do it for mental or physical health and not for spiritually. -
In a way that is right. Therefore in Buddhism to get enlightened you have to practise the eightfold path. Basically it splits into 3 parts: wisdom, ethical conduct, and mental development. What are they?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:If you cannot make sense of relative truths, can you ever hope to understand Ultimate Truths? Get your own life in order first before you start to talk about Ultimate Truths. Otherwise it can very well be a cop out.
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html (see entire article to know in-depth)
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
However, Morality, Concentration, Insight, have equal importance for enlightenment. If you go for morality and miss out concentration and insight, you cant get the insights into ultimate reality required for enlightenment. Or you miss out insight but go for concentration, you can only get to jhanas and samadhis. If you miss our morality and want to do insight, you probably can't do it because Morality is the basic requirement for concentration and insight practise.
--------------
See: The Equal Importance of Morality, Concentration, and Insight
Morality, Concentration and Insight are the essential three trainings of Buddhist practice And there's something interesting I thought was worth sharing....I thought it would be fun to envision the Three Trainings as characters and have them critique each other and then talk with each other about ways that they could reinforce each other. I will do this in the form of a short play in one act. While I will exaggerate and dichotomize their issues with each other for comic effect, I do think that each of the points made has some validity. Hopefully, you will see through the humor to the important points being illustrated.
Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, Adobe/.pdf version, by Arhat, Dharma Dan
Curtain opens. Morality, Concentration and Insight are sitting in a bar having a discussion. A large stack of empty shot glasses sits in front of each character.
Morality: You navel gazing, self-absorbed, good-for-nothing freaks! I go out and work hard all day long to make this world fit to live in while you two sit on those sweat covered cushions and cultivate butt-rot! I go out and make good money, keep food in our mouths, a roof over our heads, deal with our stuff, and you go out and spend our money up at that freak-house you call a meditation center when there is important work to be done! I want to work on my tan!
Insight: Who are you calling “self-absorbed?” I can’t be self absorbed by definition! If it wasn’t for me, you would be so stuck in dualistic illusion that you wouldn’t know your ass from your elbow, you conceptually fixated, emotionally mired, bound-up-in-manifestation-looking, twelve sandwich eating…
Concentration: Yeah! And by the way, Mr. Oh-so-worldly, you should learn to lighten up sometimes! Work your fingers to the bone, whaddaya get? Bony fingers. ThatÂ’s what. And that goes for you too, Mr. Enlightenment! If you didnÂ’t have my skills, youÂ’d be shit out of luck, unable to focus, and dead boring to boot! Who brings up the deep joy and wondrous mind states around here? I do, thatÂ’s who, so you two should just shut up!
Insight: Oh, yeah? Well, Mr. La-la Land, if it werenÂ’t for me, weÂ’d be so caught up in your transient highs that we might just get arrested. Somebody call the law! You two are so easily sucked into blowing things out of proportion that without me you two would have all the perspective of a dung heap!
Morality: Dung heap? YouÂ’d be lucky to have a dung heap if it wasnÂ’t for me, you emptiness-fixated, IÂ’m-oh-so-non-conceptual vibration-junkie. What good is having perspective if you donÂ’t go out and use it?
Concentration: Yeah! And speaking of perspective, I give you guys more perspective than you have any idea of. Not only do I provide a bridge between our resident Save-the-world Poster Child and the Void-fixated Flicker-boy, I help you two get your twitchy little minds right! I help the Boy Scout here gain more and deeper insights into his screwed up emotional world and “stuff” than he ever could have on his own, and if it wasn’t for me, Mr. Ultimate would just be spinning his wheels in the parking lot! And further more, I am fun, fun, fun!
Insight: Yeah, maybe, but you donÂ’t know when to stop, you otherworldly space-case! If Relative Man and I hadnÂ’t pulled you out of the clouds, youÂ’d still be lost in some formless realm thinking you had half a clue. IÂ’m the one with the clue! There ainÂ’t nothinÂ’ in the world like what I know, and without it, you twoÂ’s whole pathetic little sense of identity would be bound up in a world beyond your control. I am your salvation, and you know it!
Morality: Beyond my control my ass! I make things happen in this world, great things! IÂ’m the one that really gets us somewhere! I make a difference! Who cares if there is no self when people are starving in Africa?
Insight: Who cares is exactly my point! There is no separate, permanent self that cares!
Morality: “I know you are, but what am I?”
Insight: Exactly!
Morality: Jerk!
Concentration: See? You guys gotta' chill out, get some balance and peace in your life. Take a few moments and just breathe! Leave your worries and cares behind, and fly the friendly skies! ItÂ’s free, legal, and oh-so-recommended. You can quit whenever you like! All your friends are doing it! Come on, just relax!
Morality: All right, Fly Guy, when are we going to deal with our emotional issues, huh? When are we going to save the world? We canÂ’t just go on vacation forever.
Insight: Your problem is that you can’t see the sensations that make up these “issues” as they really are, so you make such a big friggin’ deal out of them. I mean, I see your point, but you are so reactive and blind that you are hardly the one for the job. You solidify these things into huge monsters, forget you have done this, and then freak out when they come running after you. You need a clue, you confused little shrew!
Morality: Oh, yeah! DonÂ’t think that just because you can see the true nature of the issues that make up your reality that you wonÂ’t still have stuff to deal with! Now, thatÂ’s delusion!
Insight: ItÂ’s even more deluded to think that you can really have a completely healthy perspective on anything without me, you Monster Maker!
Concentration: Dude, do you see those angels floating through the wall?
Morality: Where in the Hell did I find you freaks?
Insight: Short memory, eh? You found us when you realized you couldnÂ’t do it on your own. You needed us to really be able to do the job you wanted to do, to really make a difference and be as happy and effective as you could be.
Morality: Yeah? And when can I get rid of you?
Concentration and Insight: When you have mastered us completely. Jinx, one two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten!
Morality: BartenderÂ…
THE END.
If you find that you have gotten to the point when you cannot laugh at your own path, stop immediately and figure out why. I hope you have found this little, irreverent dialogue entertaining. While obviously a bit ridiculous, these sorts of tensions can arise until we really have a solid grasp of each training. When we have this, they will work together as they were meant to. -
The questions a student practicing meditation for "spiritual" purposes should ask are:
"Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?"
"Can I relinquish my thoughts?"
and
"What happens after I relinquish my thoughts?" -
I only ask myself the 1st question, which is the only important question that matters. "Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?". Setting the correct motivation in doing something is very important. For question 2 "Can I relinquish my thoughts?", surely it can be accomplished through discipline and countless practise. In fact one should never ask this question at all as it will serve as an obstruction. For question 3, although I'm not at that stage yet, but I do feel that cultivators who had reached this stage will be able to answer that question. So for someone still practising, it is again, of no importance. My 1.5 cents opinion.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The questions a student practicing meditation for "spiritual" purposes should ask are:
"Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?"
"Can I relinquish my thoughts?"
and
"What happens after I relinquish my thoughts?"
Cherrio -
1) Because you want liberation, therefore you practise concentration (i.e shamatha) and insight (i.e vipassana/vipashyana). Mahayana practitioners not only want to practise for their own liberation, furthermore, they want to practise with all sentient beings in mind, meaning practising the Bodhisattva way and having great compassion for others, wishing to save other sentient beings as well. Mahayana practitioners also wish to attain the complete and perfect enlightenment of Buddhahood. (If you practise for your own liberation, the highest attainment is Arhatship, but not Buddhahood)Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The questions a student practicing meditation for "spiritual" purposes should ask are:
"Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?"
"Can I relinquish my thoughts?"
and
"What happens after I relinquish my thoughts?"
2) & 3) You can relinquish from your thoughts, if you can practise mindfulness and meditation.
Thusness said,
----------------------
Hi LB,Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Just want to clarify this. Generally I understand the concept of living in the present moment, feeling current sensations and feelings, being aware of thoughts, etc. But there are a few examples that confuse me:
1. I am a teacher and I spend a large amount of my working time planning tomorrow's lessons or next week's lessons. This is necessary for my job. Does this mean I am not living in the present?
2. If you are an academic and your career involves researching abstract concepts, thinking about them, writing research on them, does this mean you are escaping from the present by doing this?
3. If you enter the "flow state" (popular term in American psychology, meaning losing all sense of time because you are so absorbed in what you're doing) would that be bad in Buddhism because you lost track of time passing and therefore the present reality? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
thanks
LB
You may want to look more deeply into ‘non-action’, i.e., plan but not be attached to outcome. When engaging with conceptual models, just work within the laws and conditions of the model. This is analogous to our ‘buddha nature’ working day in and day out within the conditions of our five senses yet not limited by it.
Before stabilization of our experience of Presence, there will be confusion. No-self is a very distinct phase of our practices; without going through this phase, we will not be able to replace our conceptual mode of knowing with intuitiveness and directness. This is known as the ‘turning point’. From intuitive workings into spontaneity will take some time.
-------------------
Hi LB,Originally posted by la lapine blanche:Thusness,
Thanks for the post, I'm really interested in what you said but not sure I've fully understood.
"Stabilization of our experience of Presence" - at the moment I only feel "present" sometimes, like when I can be bothered to meditate or when I remind myself to climb the stairs mindfully, etc. So I guess what you mean by "stabilization of experience of Presence" is when I come to feel this all the time?
You're quite right that I don't really go beyond conceptual thinking at all yet. I think that's why I'm struggling to understand a lot of things. Like emptiness - I kind of see the concept of "no inherent self" like I am just a collection of genes, cells, influences on my past, experiences, environment, etc. but I haven't really deeply grasped it because I still feel a strong sense of "me"!
Not exactly. Continuous sustainability of Presence all the time is the result of the awakening of our prajna wisdom that will lead to the experience of all phenomenon manifestation as unconditional spontaneous arising. It is not the result of effort or the strength of habitual energy.
The beginning of clarity and stabilization starts when we begin to break loose a deeply held 'bond' in our consciousness -- A hypnotic bond that is like a magical spell bonding us to our thoughts, body and self. Feel the power of this bond. It is just a form of identification and nothing else yet it has such power over us. Realizing this will help loosen the power of symbols over us, thus bringing us one step closer to the natural state. We will realize that we are in the right track when we notice an acute sharpening of all our senses. We feel very clear, light and bright and thoughts will lessen naturally. Thought at this level begins to play a secondary role. We gather strength when Presence beams and radiates.
Lastly be thorough in no-self. We need not worry too much. The Presence experienced from the practice of mindfulness will prevent the over-negation. instead, it will refine the understanding of our true nature.
PS: 'Mindfulness in Plain English' is a good guide. You may want to grab it. -
It is not conducive to meditate with an expectation in mind or of an outcome.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The questions a student practicing meditation for "spiritual" purposes should ask are:
"Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?"
"Can I relinquish my thoughts?"
and
"What happens after I relinquish my thoughts?"
With high expectations, mind will be restless which will lead to disappointment. Simply be.
Mm Question 1: In the mundane world, people are encouraged to set and achieve a goal. However, Meditation does not work there way.
Mm QUESTION 2: Self-doubting before u started meditating?
Practise and u will see.
mm Question 3: can only be answered by oneself. Only by seeing the truth, can one understand/realised what happens after i relinquish my thought? and oh yeah, do not be attached to insights.
Best to find a meditation guru to guide along and whom will provide valuable insights that cater to individual's needs.
I don't think anyone (which included me) is qualified to answer any meditation questions unless one is a qualified meditiation teachers or enlightened.
Just added my 1 cents of thought and what i had learnt from a dharma talk which i had attended.
/\ -
You should never stop questioning and never assume anything.Originally posted by oldkid:I only ask myself the 1st question, which is the only important question that matters. "Why do I want to relinquish my thoughts?". Setting the correct motivation in doing something is very important. For question 2 "Can I relinquish my thoughts?", surely it can be accomplished through discipline and countless practise. In fact one should never ask this question at all as it will serve as an obstruction. For question 3, although I'm not at that stage yet, but I do feel that cultivators who had reached this stage will be able to answer that question. So for someone still practising, it is again, of no importance. My 1.5 cents opinion.
Cherrio -
I don't see it as setting a goal for yourself. You can only know it when you see it or have it. But if someone did not tell you about it, you might simply miss it.Originally posted by Isis:It is not conducive to meditate with an expectation in mind or of an outcome.
With high expectations, mind will be restless which will lead to disappointment. Simply be.
Mm Question 1: In the mundane world, people are encouraged to set and achieve a goal. However, Meditation does not work there way.
Mm QUESTION 2: Self-doubting before u started meditating?
Practise and u will see.
mm Question 3: can only be answered by oneself. Only by seeing the truth, can one understand/realised what happens after i relinquish my thought? and oh yeah, do not be attached to insights.
Best to find a meditation guru to guide along and whom will provide valuable insights that cater to individual's needs.
I don't think anyone (which included me) is qualified to answer any meditation questions unless one is a qualified meditiation teachers or enlightened.
Just added my 1 cents of thought and what i had learnt from a dharma talk which i had attended.
/\
It is like when you are traveling in a far country. You have no idea what you are doing there. You have no idea why you are there.
You are simply wandering everywhere.
If someone told you that in the far country there is a gate that will lead you to a wonderful place; when you come to the gate you will enter in.
Otherwise you will just keep on wandering and even if you come to the gate, you will go pass it and never enter in. -
Exactly! Some questions can be answered verbally, some questions can be answered through experience. There is always a right time for the right question. Some question questions are ven answered before they are asked.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You should never stop questioning and never assume anything.
Assumption is the worst. Assumption brings the mind to expect something. If the expectation is not met, the mind will be disturbed.
In meditation, one will have many questions. Not all can be answered. The best way to get the answers will be through practise and consultation with a Guru. My 1.4 cents opinion, as instructed by Guru.
Cherrio