be in touch with unseen nature - Andrew PK Yap
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Again, you are ignoring the part where it says "Emptiness is Form". Think about that.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:How can it be? Since all is empty of inherent existence, what is there to escape from? All self-arises out of conditions, self-liberates in its own accords. Whatever effects is to be seen in this way. -
As for the rest of your other posts, you have to understand the Emptiness if Form part before you can go on to understanding "Buddhists Bliss"
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Haven't I said very clearly in that post.. emptiness is in the spontaneous arising out of conditions? Think about itOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:Again, you are ignoring the part where it says "Emptiness is Form". Think about that.
Even a moment of thought, or a sound, or the burning sensation leading to your immediate withdrawal of your hands from the kettle, is a pure manifestation of Tathata which is instrinsically aware/luminous, spontaneous self-arising out of conditions, self-so. If it is seen to be that - arising out of conditions, empty in nature, and due to this wisdom we do not impute reality, we do not differentiate and seperate the thought. No self is permitted in this moment of arising. At the level even the will or effort to stop the thought means we have not clearly seen that everything is spontaneous arising including that moment of thought, we become identified with the thought, so we try to find some way to suppress it, etc...
Even the thought is no different from heart beat... self arise and self liberates in its own accord, it is as natural as walking. Existence will continue to arise, the earth will spin, everything is no diff from this moment of heartbeat.
Oh yes from this perspective of course... there is no question of ignorance or attaining enlightenment... since all is pure spontaneous arising, self-liberating, luminous and blissful. But skillful means are applied to deal with our karmic propensities. -
Perhaps you can explain about "Successful living! Happiness! Joy! Peace!", I think it would be interesting to hear from your perspective..Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:As for the rest of your other posts, you have to understand the Emptiness if Form part before you can go on to understanding "Buddhists Bliss"
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In your context Form is the "spontaneous arising out of conditions" This is why I told you that you keep emphasizing on Form is Emptiness and ignore Emptiness is Form.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Haven't I said very clearly in that post.. emptiness is in the spontaneous arising out of conditions? Think about it
see: 04 February 2007 · 04:53 PM here:
be in touch with unseen nature Page 3
Is Emptiness Void? Nothingness? -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Spontaneous arising out of conditions clearly states that Emptiness is NOT voidness or nothingness, but merely empty of inherent existence, arising out of conditions.
In your context [b]Form is the "spontaneous arising out of conditions" This is why I told you that you keep emphasizing on Form is Emptiness and ignore Emptiness is Form.
see: 04 February 2007 · 04:53 PM here:
be in touch with unseen nature Page 3
Is Emptiness Void? Nothingness?[/b] -
Exactly, so you see, relative reality is a part of ultimate reality. When you start to talk of relative reality as not reality, then you have a problem don't you? When you say that Ultimate Reality is "luminous" and this reality is not reality, you have a problem. There is an error in your understanding. Your mind is "illusionary" when you try to understand Ultimate Reality in this manner.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Spontaneous arising out of conditions clearly states that Emptiness is NOT voidness or nothingness, but merely empty of inherent existence, arising out of conditions.
When you say that Buddhist Bliss is not "current" but only after "liberation" you are dualistic. There is no "current" and "after liberation". -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
You see ah... ultimate reality is all there really is, actually. All relative truths are mental constructs. The world IS reality, ultimately. (The Advaita 3 stages: "The world is an illusion, Brahman alone is real, Brahman IS the World" ) That moment of self-so-spontanous-flow is already originally pure and self-liberating. Even when a thought moment arise, it is already self-liberating. It is we because we impute labels and conceptual ideas onto the flow that confuses us. To say that there is some ultimate reality other than this, is already imputing reality and concepts. True non dual means the absolute and the world are not two, there is never a subjective separated from the objective world... to be completely accurate even to say a mirror reflecting the world is already dualistic. (for that matter you can refer to Thusness's six stages) Buddha Nature cannot be found somewhere apart from the moment of arising and ceasing.
Exactly, so you see, relative reality is a part of ultimate reality. When you start to talk of relative reality as not reality, then you have a problem don't you? When you say that Ultimate Reality is "luminous" and this reality is not reality, you have a problem. There is an error in your understanding. Your mind is "illusionary" when you try to understand Ultimate Reality in this manner.
Relative truths however, refer to mentally constructed 'rights' and 'wrongs', 'this' or 'that', etc. They usually belong to the realm of time and space (time and space are ultimately empty, but are useful relative truths, as long as we do not mistaken them as ultimately real, and recognise its emptiness as well). They refer to content, concepts, not the ultimate reality. So we cannot mix up these two. Of course in regards to all relative truths, their ultimate reality is Emptiness. This does not mean Ultimate Reality = Relative Truths, otherwise you'll be saying that Emptiness is just a Concept, you can't mix them up. Emptiness is Form, Form is Emptiness simply means Emptiness is not nothingness/void, or that there is no dualistic realities like a Subjective Absolute apart from the objective world.When you say that Buddhist Bliss is not "current" but only after "liberation" you are dualistic. There is no "current" and "after liberation".
That's why I say you can have 'small liberation' right now.. of course you can experience varying degrees of bliss now even while practising as a Buddhist. -
Ultimate reality does not existsOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:You see ah... ultimate reality is all there really is, actually. All relative truths are mental constructs. The world IS reality, ultimately. (The Advaita 3 stages: "The world is an illusion, Brahman alone is real, Brahman IS the World" ) That moment of self-so-spontanous-flow is already originally pure and self-liberating. Even when a thought moment arise, it is already self-liberating. It is we because we impute labels and conceptual ideas onto the flow that confuses us. To say that there is some ultimate reality other than this, is already imputing reality and concepts. True non dual means the absolute and the world are not two, there is never a subjective separated from the objective world... to be completely accurate even to say a mirror reflecting the world is already dualistic. (for that matter you can refer to Thusness's six stages) Buddha Nature cannot be found somewhere apart from the moment of arising and ceasing.
Relative truths however, refer to mentally constructed 'rights' and 'wrongs', 'this' or 'that', etc. They usually belong to the realm of time and space (time and space are ultimately empty, but are useful relative truths, as long as we do not mistaken them as ultimately real, and recognise its emptiness as well). They refer to content, concepts, not the ultimate reality. So we cannot mix up these two. Of course in regards to all relative truths, their ultimate reality is Emptiness. This does not mean Ultimate Reality = Relative Truths, otherwise you'll be saying that Emptiness is just a Concept, you can't mix them up. Emptiness is Form, Form is Emptiness simply means Emptiness is not nothingness/void, or that there is no dualistic realities like a Subjective Absolute apart from the objective world.
1. Outside of
2. Apart from
1. Relative Reality
2. You -
So are you saying ultimate reality does not exist outside or apart from concepts?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Ultimate reality does not exists
1. Outside of
2. Apart from
1. Relative Reality
2. You -
An example of what I am saying based on what you have posted!Originally posted by An Eternal Now:So are you saying ultimate reality does not exist outside or apart from concepts?
23.To desire something other than this
Is just like having an elephant (at home), but searching for its tracks elsewhere.
Even though you may try to measure the universe with a tape measure, it will not be possible to encompass all of it.
(Similarly) if you do not understand that everything derives from the mind, it will not be possible for you to attain Buddhahood.
By not recognizing this (intrinsic awareness for what it is), you will then search for your mind somewhere outside of yourself.
If you seek for yourself elsewhere (outside of yourself), how can you ever find yourself?
If you are looking for "Ultimate Reality" you are looking for yourself! -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Yes, but that has nothing to do with relative reality. Relative reality means dualistic concepts -- this or that, right or wrong, you and me, etc. Precisely because it is dualistic, it is relative, meaning this relates to that, etc. The True Self you are talking about encompasses all, is beyond dualistic concepts/relative truths like "self" and "not self", therefore it is ultimate reality.
An example of what I am saying based on what you have posted!
[b]23.To desire something other than this
Is just like having an elephant (at home), but searching for its tracks elsewhere.
Even though you may try to measure the universe with a tape measure, it will not be possible to encompass all of it.
(Similarly) if you do not understand that everything derives from the mind, it will not be possible for you to attain Buddhahood.
By not recognizing this (intrinsic awareness for what it is), you will then search for your mind somewhere outside of yourself.
If you seek for yourself elsewhere (outside of yourself), how can you ever find yourself?
If you are looking for "Ultimate Reality" you are looking for yourself![/b] -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
It does, this relates to that, there is right and wrong, you and me; that is reality but it is also not reality (Form is Emptiness) Not reality IS also reality. (Emptiness is Form).
Yes, but that has nothing to do with relative reality. Relative reality means dualistic concepts -- this or that, right or wrong, you and me, etc. Precisely because it is dualistic, it is [b]relative, meaning this relates to that, etc.[/b] -
Ok.. so you're saying emptiness is not apart from relative truths, and relative truth itself is ultimate reality, like Nirvana is Samsara rightly seen? Like for example we normally think of a keyboard as a permanent, inherent existing entity. Yet the keyboard is actually empty of inherent, permanent reality. And this impermanence, empty of inherent existence is also actually the keyboard?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:It does, this relates to that, there is right and wrong, you and me; that is reality but it is also not reality (Form is Emptiness) Not reality IS also reality. (Emptiness is Form).
Emptiness is not only at ultimate level but also relative level? Is that what you mean? -
mm i kinda of agreed with what AndrewPKYap has said regarding the above paragraph.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:It does, this relates to that, there is right and wrong, you and me; that is reality but it is also not reality (Form is Emptiness) Not reality IS also reality. (Emptiness is Form).
However, im not sure about the ultimate reality is really just about yourself.
It just does not seem complete to me.. i'm not sure why.. -
me tooOriginally posted by Isis:mm i kinda of agreed with what AndrewPKYap has said regarding the above paragraph.
However, im not sure about the ultimate reality is really just about yourself.
It just does not seem complete to me.. i'm not sure why..
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
ok just to add.. after thinking abt it..
An example of what I am saying based on what you have posted!
[b]23.To desire something other than this
Is just like having an elephant (at home), but searching for its tracks elsewhere.
Even though you may try to measure the universe with a tape measure, it will not be possible to encompass all of it.
(Similarly) if you do not understand that everything derives from the mind, it will not be possible for you to attain Buddhahood.
By not recognizing this (intrinsic awareness for what it is), you will then search for your mind somewhere outside of yourself.
If you seek for yourself elsewhere (outside of yourself), how can you ever find yourself?
If you are looking for "Ultimate Reality" you are looking for yourself![/b]
" if you are looking for ultimate reality", i'm looking for myself.
In my own opinion, i could say yes.. in a way..
but is the ultimate reality is preceived by oneself?? = > is that what andrew mean? ( refering to ur previous A=/=B etc anology )
I'm not sure if i interpret right... -
I think ultimate reality is not about the ego, the self, or any concepts whatsoever, although it is not separate from relative realities. Ultimate reality cannot be attained. Neither can it be "known". Recognition is not a "knowing", there is nothing in particular to know, neither is there someone who knows. Insight/enlightenment/awakening is not about attaining or knowing anything, but waking up from a big dream. It has always been said that Ultimate Reality is ungraspable and imageless. To hold on to a "Self" as ultimate reality is already wrong. Ultimate reality is just the arising and ceasing, everything spontaneously self-arises and self-liberates. All along our existence has been non-dual, so oneness cannot be prescribed (or attained), it can only be described. Meaning, there never was a seperation of subject and object (therefore achieving 'union' or 'oneness' does not make sense), all along it is our ignorance fooling ourselves. There is nothing to attain.. and you can't find yourself outside Mind (as in True Mind) means it doesn't help when you are searching for the bull you are riding on in the first place. It does not literally means finding something which you can identify with "IT" and call it "Self".
http://www.nathangill.com/pages/readingroom/going-beyond.html
Going beyond.
So there's an awareness of this room right now, but what about the unmanifest level?
What unmanifest level? Isn't what's appearing enough?
The appearance is merely a pointer to what is beyond Consciousness.
Why do you want to go beyond?
Because that's where all the action is, for creating this manifestation.
This manifestation isn't created - it spontaneously appears.
But ultimately there's nothing more important than what is beyond Consciousness.
When there's exclusive identification with the content of awareness, with the story of 'me' as an imagined entity, there's a tendency for the awareness aspect of Consciousness to be objectified as 'the beyond', a state or realm which once attained will offer oneness, lasting peace.
But in actuality there is no beyond, nothing to be attained 'ultimately'. There's simply this as it is: simple presence. This is already that 'realm'. Consciousness (awareness and the presently appearing content of awareness) is already one or whole, and when the story of 'me' - of identification - is seen as just a play, a movie, then all pursuit of oneness, all pursuit of the beyond or whatever, quite naturally becomes obsolete.http://www.nathangill.com/pages/readingroom/cosmic-entertainment.html
The cosmic entertainment.
Are you saying that thought doesn't make a difference, that nothing makes a difference in the sense of cause and effect? Everything just arises?
Everything just arises, including the idea of cause and effect.
But doesn't that idea itself make a difference? Doesn't the idea create an effect at a local level?
Only apparently so, as part of the play or movie of life. In actuality there's no cause and effect. Everything - all of this imagery - arises entirely spontaneously, immediately. Within the movie of life, there is the impression of cause and effect, but in actuality there is no separation, so nothing that can act upon anything else.
So it all just happens to arise and it just looks as though there's relationship?
Yes, the imagery that arises merely suggests separation.
And so somebody who identifies with an 'I' or with a body -
Well, it's not that there's 'someone' who identifies - rather it's more accurately described by saying 'Where identification arises Â…'.
OK, so where identification arises, that is something that nothing can be done about?
Precisely so. If anything changes it does so entirely spontaneously - because there's no one here who can effect any change. Cause and effect, action and reaction, are appearance only, the imagery of the movie of life, the cosmic entertainment. -
To say I exists, no
To say I do not exists, no
To say Ultimate reality is me, no
To say Ultimate reality is not me, no
When you look at a flower through a microscope
You are not looking at the flower
The flower no longer exists
When you look at a flower from outer space
You are not looking at the flower
The flower no longer exists
Yet the flower is always there
even when the flower had faded and passed away
The flower is still there
When you look at a flower with your naked eyes
You can see the flower
You can also not see the flower
When you look at a flower with your naked eyes
To say I am right, no
To say I am wrong, no
When you realise the existence of everything
When you realise the non existence of everything
You have found yourself -
If you can rest in bliss with this understanding, then rest.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:To say I exists, no
To say I do not exists, no
To say Ultimate reality is me, no
To say Ultimate reality is not me, no
When you look at a flower through a microscope
You are not looking at the flower
The flower no longer exists
When you look at a flower from outer space
You are not looking at the flower
The flower no longer exists
Yet the flower is always there
even when the flower had faded and passed away
The flower is still there
When you look at a flower with your naked eyes
You can see the flower
You can also not see the flower
When you look at a flower with your naked eyes
To say I am right, no
To say I am wrong, no
When you realise the existence of everything
When you realise the non existence of everything
You have found yourself -
There is obviously more to it.Originally posted by Thusness:If you can rest in bliss with this understanding, then rest. -
Then walk on.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:There is obviously more to it. -
and help others walking behind, that wants to, to catch up...Originally posted by Thusness:Then walk on.
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and recognising also that some people that claim to be in front of you are in reality, way behind or not even walking the same path!
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and so, the way is not to teach but to help others realise... there is nothing to teach and everything to realise.