why is the odds of enlightenment so low ?
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since every1 have the potential to become a buddha .
the odds of becoming 1 is so low . -
if we can put down our attachment, dualism and false wandering thoughts, then we are all Buddhas already!
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It is untrue that the odds of becoming enlightened is low. And it is not "odds", "odds" is a wrong word. It is just a matter of whether you are willing to practise the eightfold path, whether you desire truth/liberation as to truly practise the Buddha's teachings.Originally posted by Taiwanpolitics:since every1 have the potential to become a buddha .
the odds of becoming 1 is so low .
If you are willing to practise, and know the dharma/have an enlightened person to guide you, it is very likely to attain enlightenment. It will usually 'happen' within tens of years, or even a few years or less if one practises hard. Just follow the path that Buddha taught us so clearly, it leads directly to enlightenment. There are many enlightened people even today.
So if you practise, you can attain enlightenment. It's just a matter of whether you are willing to practise.. there are so many Buddhists in the world, but how many even know that it is possible to become enlightened, or bother to practise?
Update: sorry, regarding Buddhahood, it is generally not something that can be achieved within one lifetime. But enlightenment as to awakening to our true nature, and liberation from samsara (arhats or 6th bhumi bodhisattva & above) can definitely be achieved in this life... that can mean different Bodhisattva Bhumi stages, or Arhat stages, etc.. and there are many enlightened people around in the world, some even post in this forum. -
Hmm have to elaborate on this partOriginally posted by sinweiy:if we can put down our attachment, dualism and false wandering thoughts, then we are all Buddhas already!
/\
It is true that our true nature, Buddha Nature, Awareness (Jue) which is Buddha, 'manifests' when we 'let go' of our wandering/dualistic thoughts...
"For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you,
you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon;
whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness,
you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash. . ."
~Dhyana Paramita Sutra
However.. that is not to be confused as attaining perfected Buddhahood like Shakyamuni Buddha.. Buddhahood manifests in an instance of awakening, like glimpses of the clear bright mirror beneath the layer of dust, but nevertheless the job is still not done as we still have to 'clean' the entire mirror, or rather transmute the entire eighth consciousness into Wisdom. (The wisdom attained through transmuting eighth consciousness is also known as the 'Great Round Mirror Wisdom', or da4 yuan2 jing4 zhi4) -
If all our thoughts are false then what makes Gautama Buddha's thought to be true?Originally posted by sinweiy:if we can put down our attachment, dualism and false wandering thoughts, then we are all Buddhas already!
/\ -
It's not a matter of right and wrong. It is just that sentient beings does not know emptiness, and grasp on extreme, dualistic and erroneous concepts like inherent existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, and neither existence or non existence, and other extreme views like eternalism, nihilism, etc etc. A Buddha does not have all these. He does not grasp or become attached to 'things' because he sees the emptiness nature of it. An enlightened person is also no longer affected by afflictive emotions.. and is purified.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If all our thoughts are false then what makes Gautama Buddha's thought to be true? -
There are countless and countless of Buddhas before Buddha Gautama so i don't think the odds are really low. In addition, there are different levels of enlightenment.Originally posted by Taiwanpolitics:since every1 have the potential to become a buddha .
the odds of becoming 1 is so low .
Everyone of us have buddha nature. Since it is present in our nature, it is within our capability to become a buddha one day. -
It is just that sentient beings does not know emptiness, and grasp on extreme, dualistic and erroneous concepts like inherent existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, and neither existence or non existence, and other extreme views like eternalism, nihilism, etc etc.
Wow...that's kinda highly enlightening. So emptiness is actually 'empty of inherent nature' as well (conventional language...)...I gonna do some reflection on that... -
From my understanding, since an enlightened being's who has eradicated the three posions ( ignorance, hatred and greed ) which are the primary causes of the negative karma, he will no longer have the intention and be acting on the defilement. Thus no more negative karma will be created.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It's not a matter of right and wrong. It is just that sentient beings does not know emptiness, and grasp on extreme, dualistic and erroneous concepts like inherent existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, and neither existence or non existence, and other extreme views like eternalism, nihilism, etc etc. A Buddha does not have all these. He does not grasp or become attached to 'things' because he sees the emptiness nature of it. An enlightened person is also no longer affected by afflictive emotions.. and is purified.
However, the enlightened being is still subjected to past karma, though the effects will be minimised.
ok might be abit irrelevant to the above posting regarding to emptiness but i just heard the above from a venerable so just thinking of sharing only. -
If it is so then any sentient being cannot have buddha nature.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:It's not a matter of right and wrong. It is just that sentient beings does not know emptiness, and grasp on extreme, dualistic and erroneous concepts like inherent existence, non existence, both existence and non existence, and neither existence or non existence, and other extreme views like eternalism, nihilism, etc etc. A Buddha does not have all these. He does not grasp or become attached to 'things' because he sees the emptiness nature of it. An enlightened person is also no longer affected by afflictive emotions.. and is purified. -
Everyone has buddha nature, just that it is obscured to them due to their illusions, like a layer of dust covering the face of the bright mirror.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If it is so then any sentient being cannot have buddha nature. -
You claim that it is possible that everyone has a buddha nature but what the physical proof to your claim?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Everyone has buddha nature, just that it is obscured to them due to their illusions, like a layer of dust covering the face of the bright mirror. -
Buddha nature can mean the potential to be a Buddha but to speak in terms of ultimate, it is not even appropriate to say someone's buddha nature. Buddha Nature is impersonal, and everything is a manifestation of our buddha nature.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:You claim that it is possible that everyone has a buddha nature but what the physical proof to your claim?
Buddha Nature is not a physical thing, it is beyond relative truths of space and time but cognizes the relative world. If it were physical, it would be a compounded, impermanent, conditioned phenomena. The Buddha Nature is unconditioned and not limited by space and time, but manifests in space and time. The very fact of cognizing means that Buddha Nature is cognizing. The very fact that you are aware means there is Buddha Nature. (although conditioned consciousness does not equate to Buddha Nature, but is a manifestation of it) Although to really get in touch with this primal reality we have to do spiritual practises and experience it ourselves.
Anyway here's a good video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa4WtuR0wbY
"....I can doubt objects or the sensory world, because it might be the matrix, it might be a virtual reality, it might be an illusion. One thing I cannot doubt is the doubter, in other words there is an awareness of these things that are arising, and I cannot doubt that ever-present simple feeling of awareness... Because even if I doubt that and deny it, I am using THAT to deny it..."
Buddha Nature is that - the primal, everlasting, timeless undoubtable reality. Except that it is non dual (which Ken mentions later)
Buddha Nature is much closer than physical proof. You can doubt even that physical proof -- the whole objective world might be a matrix, you may just be hallucinating or dreaming, the experiments may be tampered, screwed up, whatever. The primal reality is not moved."For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you,
you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon;
whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness,
you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash. . ."
~Dhyana Paramita Sutra -
*****************
From The Shurangama Sutra:
The Buddha said to Ananda, “The Thus Come Ones of the ten directions cultivated by
means of all of the eighteen realms and obtained perfect, unsurpassed Bodhi. All of them were generally adequate. But you are at an inferior level and are not yet able to perfect comfortable wisdom among them. Therefore, I shall give you an explanation, so that you will be able to enter deeply into one door. Enter one without falseness, and the six sense organs will be simultaneously pure.”
Ananda said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, how do we oppose the flow, enter deeply into one door, and cause the six organs to simultaneously become pure?”
The Buddha told Ananda, “You have already obtained the fruition of a Shrotaapanna. You have already extinguished the view-delusions of living beings in the three realms, but you do not yet know that your organs have accumulated habits that are without beginning. It is through cultivation that one severs not simply these habits, but also their numerous subtleties as they pass through arisal, dwelling, change, and extinction.
“You should now contemplate the six organs further: are they one or six? If you say they are one, Ananda, why can’t the ears see? Why can’t the eyes hear? Why can’t the head walk? Why can’t the feet talk?
“If the six organs are definitely six, then as I now explain this subtle, wonderful dharma-door for you in this assembly, which of your six organs is receiving it?”
Ananda said, “I hear it with my ears.”
The Buddha said, “Your ears hear by themselves, what, then, does it have to do with your body and mouth? And yet you ask about the principles with your mouth, and your body displays veneration.
“Therefore, you should know that if they are not one, then they must be six. And if they are not six, they must be one. But you can’t say that your organs are basically one and six.
“Ananda, you should know that these organs are neither one nor six. It is from being upside-down and sinking into involvements throughout time without beginning that the theory of one and six has become established. As a Shrotaapanna, you have dissolved the six, but you still have not done away with the one.
“It is like emptiness fitting into differently shaped vessels. The emptiness is said to be whatever shape the vessel is. But if you get rid of the vessel and look at the emptiness, you will say it is one and the same.
“But how can that emptiness become alike and different at your convenience? Even less can it be one or not one. Therefore, you should understand that the six receptive functioning organs should be the same way.
“Seeing occurs because the two appearances of darkness and light, and their like, firmly adhere to quietude in what originally was wonderful perfection. The essence of seeing reflects form and combines with form to become an organ. In its pure state the organ of the eye is the four elements. And yet it takes the name ‘eye-organ’ and is shaped like a grape. Of the superficial sense-organs and the four defiling objects, this one races out after form.
“Hearing occurs because the two reverberations of movement and stillness, and their like, firmly adhere to quietude in what originally was wonderful perfection. The essence of hearing reflects sound and resounds with sound to become the organ of the ear. In its pure state, the organ of the ear is the four elements. It takes the name ‘ear organ’ and is shaped like a fresh, curled leaf. Of the superficial sense-organs and the four defiling objects, this one is loosed upon sound. -
[And so on for all the six senses.]
Ananda said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, as the Buddha has said, ‘The resolve for enlightenment on the causeground which seeks the eternal must be in mutual accord with the ground of fruition.’
“World Honored One, the ground of fruition is Bodhi; Nirvana; true suchness; the Buddha-nature; the Amala- Consciousness; the Empty Treasury of the Thus Come One; the great, Perfect Mirror-Wisdom. But although it is called by these seven names, it is pure and perfect, its substance is durable, like royal vajra, everlasting and indestructible.
“If the seeing and hearing are apart from light and darkness, movement and stillness, and penetration and obstruction and are ultimately devoid of substance, they are then like thoughts apart from sense-objects: they do not exist at all.
“How can what is ultimately destroyed be a cause by which one cultivates in the hope of obtaining the fruition of the Thus Come One’s sevenfold permanent abode?
“World Honored One, when it is apart from light and darkness, the seeing is ultimately empty, just as when there is no sense-object, the essence of thought is extinguished.
“I go back and forth in circles, minutely searching, and basically there is no such thing as my mind or its objects. Just what should be used to seek the Unsurpassed Enlightenment?
“The Thus Come One previously said it was a tranquil essence, perfect and eternal. His present contradiction defies belief and is a resort to idle theorizing. How can the Thus Come One’s words be true and actual?
“I only hope the Buddha will let fall his great compassion and will instruct us who do not understand and who are holding on tightly.”
The Buddha told Ananda, “You study and learn much, but you have not yet extinguished outflows. In your mind you know only the causes of being upside down. But when the true inversion manifests, you really cannot recognize it yet.
Lest your sincerity and faith remain insufficient, I will try to make use of an ordinary happening to dispel your doubts."
Then the Thus Come One instructed Rahula to strike the bell once, and he asked Ananda, “Did you hear that?”
Ananda and the members of the Great Assembly all said, “We heard it.”
The bell ceased to sound, and the Buddha again asked, “Do you hear it now?”
Ananda and the members of the Great Assembly all said, “We do not hear it.”
Then Rahula struck the bell once again. The Buddha again asked, “Do you hear it now?”
Ananda and the Great Assembly again said, “We hear it.”
The Buddha asked Ananda, “What do you hear and what do you not hear?”
Ananda and the members of the Great Assembly all said to the Buddha, “When the bell is rung, we hear it. Once the sound of the bell ceases, so that even its echo fades away, we do not hear it.”
The Thus Come One again instructed Rahula to strike the bell, and he asked Ananda, “Is there sound now?”
Ananda and the members of the Great Assembly all said, “There is a sound.”
After a short time the sound ceased, and the Buddha again asked, “Is there a sound now?”
Ananda and the Great Assembly answered, “There is no sound.”
After a moment, Rahula again struck the bell, and the Buddha again asked, “Is there sound now?”
Ananda and the Great Assembly said together, “There is sound.”
The Buddha asked Ananda, “What is meant by ‘sound,’ and what is meant by ‘no sound?’”
Ananda and the Great Assembly told the Buddha, “When the bell is struck there is sound. Once the sound ceases and even the echo fades away, there is said to be no sound.”
The Buddha said to Ananda and the Great Assembly, “Why are you inconsistent in what you say?”
The Great Assembly and Ananda then asked the Buddha, “In what way have we been inconsistent?”
The Buddha said, “When I asked you if it was your hearing, you said it was your hearing. Then, when I asked you if it was sound, you said it was sound. I cannot ascertain from your answers if it is hearing or if it is sound. How can you not say this
is inconsistent?
“Ananda, when the sound is gone without an echo, you say there is no hearing. If there were really no hearing, the hearing nature would be extinguished. It would be just like dead wood. If then the bell were sounded again, how would you know?
“What you know to be there or not there is the defiling object of sound. But could the hearing nature be there or not be there depending on your perception of its being there or not? If the hearing could really not be there, what would perceive that it was not?
“And so, Ananda, the sounds that you hear are what are subject to production and extinction, not your hearing. The arising and cessation of sounds cause your hearing-nature to be as if there or not there.
“You are so upside-down that you mistake sound for hearing. No wonder you are so confused that you take what is everlasting for what is annihilated. Ultimately, you cannot say that there is no hearing nature apart from movement and stillness and from obstruction and penetration."
http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Sh...0526.screen.pdf -
But can you doubt the primal reality?Originally posted by An Eternal Now: -
You can't, because the primal reality is the doubter or THAT which doubts, and not the doubted. When you doubt, you're really just doubting something else which you think might be the primal reality but it is not it. You are merely doubting concepts, which is good. You need to doubt ALL concepts in order to reach the primal reality.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:But can you doubt the primal reality?'There are some meditators who don't let their mind rest in itself or in basic immediateness, as they should. Instead they let it watch outwardly or search inwardly. You will neither see nor find Spirit by watching outwardly or searching inwardly (for it is the Seer, not the seen!). There is no reason whatsoever to watch outwardly or search inwardly. Let go directly into this mind that is watching outwardly or searching inwardly, and that is exactly it .'
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~ Patrul Rinpoche, slightly edited by Ken Wilber
From a previous post of mine, which I said the 3 requirements for enlightenment:http://www2.bc.cc.ca.us/resperic/science_and_spirituality.htm
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“Great faith” in Zen practice refers to a trust in the process, as demonstrated by the many who have gone on before, as well as a firm trust in one’s capabilities to see the essential nature of reality for oneself. In scientific work, “great faith” refers to a trust in the scientific method, successfully applied by scientists of the past, as well as an underlying belief in one’s inherent capability to understand the phenomena being studied.
“Great doubt” in Zen refers to a willingness to profoundly question all of one’s most cherished beliefs, and ultimately to uproot them. Beliefs are but concepts, floating on the surface. The conceptual realm may be useful at times, but compulsive attachment to particular concepts is a hindrance to penetrating to deeper levels of realization of the fundamental nature of reality, which is beyond all concepts. An ancient Chinese saying states that when a wise man points his finger to the moon, the fool sees only his finger. In science, “great doubt” is based on a realization that the model is not the reality. Being too attached to a particular hypothesis or theory can prevent one from arriving at a better theory that reflects a deeper understanding of the phenomena of interest.
“Great determination” in Zen is required in order to not give in to laziness. The process may take some time, and without determination one may never attain deep realization. In fact, there is no deepest realization, and only by great determination will one keep going deeper. Of course the same can be said of scientific research.
And of course, once you have an intuitive experience, you will no longer be confused and mistake anything else for the primal reality.A different type of knowing remains when the relative mind ceases to
exist. It is the type of knowing that is not a knowing at all, for there
is only Being. How can anything be known, when it Is? How can the eye
see itself? Or music hear itself? How can 'I' know 'that', when 'I' AM
'that'?
~ Bernadette Roberts, a Catholic/Christian Mystic, interestingly one of the few Christians who not only have reached the 'I AM' stage but also transcended it as well (no self) -
Full article here, this is the shortened one: http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/boomeritis/sidebar_e/index.cfm/
There are many things that I can doubt, but I cannot doubt my own consciousness in this moment. My consciousness and even if I tried to doubt it, it would be my consciousness doubting. I can imagine that my senses are being presented with a fake reality – say, a completely virtual reality or digital reality, which looks real but is merely a series of extremely realist images. But even then, I cannot doubt the consciousness that is doing the watching…
The very undeniability of my present awareness, the undeniability of my consciousness, immediately delivers to me a certainty of existence in this moment, a certainty of Being in the now-ness of this moment. I cannot doubt consciousness and Being in this moment, for it is the ground of all knowing, all seeing, all existingÂ…
Who am I? Ask that question over and over again, deeply. Who am I? What is it in me that is conscious of everything?
If you think that you know Spirit, or if you think you donÂ’t, Spirit is actually that which is thinking both of those thoughts. So you can doubt the objects of consciousness, but you can never believably doubt the doubter, never really doubt the Witness of the entire display. Therefore, rest in the Witness, whether it is thinking that it knows God or not, and that witnessing, that undeniable immediacy of now-consciousness, is itself God, Spirit, Buddha-mind. The certainty lies in the pure self-felt Consciousness to which objects appear, not in the objects themselves. You will never, never, never see God, because God is the Seer, not any finite, mortal, bounded object that can be seenÂ…
This pure I AM state is not hard to achieve but impossible to escape, because it is ever present and can never really be doubted. You can never run from Spirit, because Spirit is the Runner. To put it very bluntly, Spirit is not hard to find but impossible to avoid: it is that which is looking at this page right now. CanÂ’t you feel That One? Why on earth do you keep looking for God when God is actually the Looker?
Simply ask, Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?
I am aware of my feelings, so I am not my feelings – Who am I? I am aware of my thoughts, so I am not my thoughts – Who am I? Clouds float by in the sky, thoughts float by in the mind, feelings float by in the body – and I am none of those because I can Witness them all.
Moreover, I can doubt that clouds exist, I can doubt that feelings exist, I can doubt that objects of thought exist – but I cannot doubt that the Witness exists in this moment, because the Witness would still be there to witness the doubt.
I am not objects in nature, not feelings in the body, not thoughts in the mind, for I can Witness them all. I am that Witness – a vast, spacious, empty, clear, pure, transparent Openness that impartially notices all that arises, as a mirror spontaneously reflects all its objects…
You can already feel some of this Great Liberation in that, as you rest in the ease of witnessing this moment, you already feel that you are free from the suffocating constriction of mere objects, mere feelings, mere thoughts – they all come and go, but you are that vast, free, empty, open Witness of them all, untouched by their torments and tortures.
This is actually the profound discovery of… the pure divine Self, the formless Witness, causal nothingness, the vast Emptiness in which the entire world arises, stays a bit, and passes. And you are That. You are not the body, not the ego, not nature, not thoughts, not this, not that – you are a vast Emptiness, Freedom, Release, and Liberation.
With this discoveryÂ… you are halfway home. You have disidentified from any and all finite objects; you rest as infinite Consciousness. You are free, open, empty, clear, radiant, released, liberated, exalted, drenched in a blissful emptiness that exists prior to space, prior to time, prior to tears and terror, prior to pain and mortality and suffering and death. You have found the great Unborn, the vast Abyss, the unqualifiable Ground of all that is, and all that was, and all that ever shall be.
But why is that only halfway home? Because as you rest in the infinite ease of consciousness, spontaneously aware of all that is arising, there will soon enough come the great catastrophe of Freedom and Fullness: the Witness itself will disappear entirely, and instead of witnessing the sky, you are the sky; instead of touching the earth, you are the earth; instead of hearing the thunder, you are the thunder. You and the entire Kosmos because One Taste – you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, hold Mt. Everest in the palm of your hand; supernovas swirl in your heart and the solar system replaces your head…
You are One Taste, the empty mirror that is one with any and all objects that arise in its embrace, a mindlessly vast translucent expanse: infinite, eternal, radiant beyond release. And youÂ… areÂ… ThatÂ…
So the primary Cartesian dualism – which is simply the dualism between… in here and out there, subject and object, the empty Witness and all things witnessed – is finally undone and overcome in nondual One Taste. Once you actually and fully contact the Witness, then – and only then – can it be transcended into radical Nonduality, and halfway home becomes fully home, here in the ever-present wonder of what is…
And so how do you know that you have finally and really overcome the Cartesian dualism? Very simple: if you really overcome the Cartesian dualism, then you no longer feel that you are on this side of your face looking at the world out there. There is only the world, and you are all of that; you actually feel that you are one with everything that is arising moment to moment. You are not merely on this side of your face looking out there. “In here” and “out there” have become One Taste with a shuddering obviousness and certainty so profound it feels like a five-ton rock just dropped on your head. It is, shall we say, a feeling hard to miss.
At that point, which is actually your ever-present condition, there is no exclusive identity with this particular organism, no constriction of consciousness to the head, a constriction that makes it seem that “you” are in the head looking at the rest of the world out there; there is no binding of attention to the personal bodymind: instead, consciousness is one with all that is arising – a vast, open, transparent, radiant, infinitely Free and infinitely Full expanse that embraces the entire Kosmos, so that every single subject and every single object are erotically united in the Great Embrace of One Taste. You disappear from merely being behind your eyes, and you become the All, you directly and actually feel that your basic identity is everything that is arising moment to moment (just as previously you felt that your identity was with this finite, partial, separate, mortal coil of flesh you call a body). Inside and outside have become One Taste. I tell you, it can happen just like that!
~ Source: Boomeritis, Sidebar E: “The Genius Descartes Gets a Postmodern Drubbing: Integral Historiography in a Postmodern Age” -
Also see Thusness's six stages of experience: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722&page=3
The Pure 'I AM' state can range from Thusness's Stage 1 to Stage 4 with varying degrees of clarity, while the non-dual One Taste experience where the non dual nature of primal reality is experienced as described by Ken Wilber, corresponds with Thusness's Stage 5 experience. (There is also Stage 6, but might be a little deep for now.) -
Hey do listen to this: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/05/buddhist-geeks-9-enlightened-teachers/Originally posted by Taiwanpolitics:since every1 have the potential to become a buddha .
the odds of becoming 1 is so low .
Will show you how common enlightenment is
The person interviewed is himself an Arhat.
Also as I mentioned, even in this forum, there are quite a number of posters who are themselves enlightened to certain degrees. (in Arhat model there are 4 stages, in Bodhisattva models there are 10 stages)
You can almost say that all Buddhist teachers especially those representing the lineages of various traditions/are verified by their masters are enlightened to certain degrees.