No more lies
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Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
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this forum is for people who believe.
in this forum we can mould our minds and practice peace and such.
and we can obtain knowledge from ancient history too.
i haven't went to this forum before, but i know it's worth something.
btw moderator, my explaining sux. -
if you only think of the present only and not think about the future, then leave this forum and this site.Originally posted by JonLS:Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
*ahem no explicits pls* (moderator) -
if you only think of the present only and not think about the future, then leave this forum and this site.Originally posted by JonLS:Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
i cant believe your insensitive nonsense here. -
I think the TS knows what he's talking about but perhaps not very skillful in explaining and leads to misunderstandings.Originally posted by gigabyte14:this forum is for people who believe.
in this forum we can mould our minds and practice peace and such.
and we can obtain knowledge from ancient history too.
i haven't went to this forum before, but i know it's worth something.
btw moderator, my explaining sux. -
he's a non believer for what i can see.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think the TS knows what he's talking about but perhaps not very skillful in explaining and leads to misunderstandings. -
JonLS frequents my forum and we often have some interesting discussions.. I don't think he posted with ill intentions. I think his post meant we should not attach to words and teachings which are afterall only pointers to the truth. Hopefully the topic starter can clarify.. I'll reply again tomorrow.. kinda late now.Originally posted by gigabyte14:he's a non believer for what i can see. -
i hope you're right... i hate people who insults other religions, even though buddhism is not of mine.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:JonLS frequents my forum and we often have some interesting discussions.. I don't think he posted with ill intentions. I think his post meant we should not attach to words and teachings which are afterall only pointers to the truth. Hopefully the topic starter can clarify.. I'll reply again tomorrow.. kinda late now. -
I see... so what religion are you into?Originally posted by gigabyte14:i hope you're right... i hate people who insults other religions, even though buddhism is not of mine. -
im taoist.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I see... so what religion are you into? -
Yo pal,Originally posted by gigabyte14:im taoist.
relax ... ; )
Jonls does have some interesting point there too.
even though he might seem insensitive in his words.
From my understanding, he isn't local too. -
To you and all forummers... First of all the dharma has to be spoken on the right occasion to the right people. For example what you said may not make sense to newcomer, but only to people who already had some ideas of what Buddhism is about... and your message may even be the right remedy for someone who is attached to teachings, words, concepts, and so on. Dharmas are always spoken according to conditions, as a pointer, not to be clung to as being some sort of absolute truth... which is why it is said 'there is no fixed dharmas, fixed dharma are not dharmas'. Even 'present moment' or 'This' is equally misleading it if it clung to as the absolute. The Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra, The mind of the past is ungraspable; the mind of the future is ungraspable; the mind of the present is ungraspable.Originally posted by JonLS:Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
For someone who is new to Buddhism and has an interest to learn about Buddhism, it might be better instead to talk about the fundamental views and practises of Buddhism, like the 4 noble truths, the eightfold path, the 4 seals/3 dharma seals, and to have the right understanding of Emptiness, etc... and even Emptiness teachings is just a pointer, being itself Empty, therefore the 'Viewless View is the highest View'. Emptiness is not to be grasped as an 'Absolute' but merely points out that the 4 extremes of erroneous views that sentient beings cherish are illusory -- i.e they grasp on 'entities' by grasping on the ideas that they have inherent existence, non existence, both and neither.. or other extreme erroneous concepts like eternalism or nihilism.. which is why Buddha taught about Interdependent Origination... in which everything is other-dependent, having no substance by itself, interwoven as a seamless whole.
Learning and practising Buddhism is very important and if one practises as the Buddha taught it leads directly to insight/enlightenment. There is no need to even 'search' for truth, one can 'just follow moronically simple instructions and have it all happen' as Dharma Dan said. (more on that later)
Of course all the Buddhist teachings needs to be experienced in the 'present moment'.. through insights.. every word that Buddha said points to the truth. But even for a beginner, it would be helpful to at least understand these teachings conceptually so that their long cherished, dualistic ideas can fall apart. Without knowing about Buddhism's Middle Way (Free from extremes and yet not even resting on a 'Middle'), which is Emptiness free from erroneous dualistic extremes/conceptual views like eternalism or nihilism, existence or non-existence, one may grasp on sensory objects and the world, thinking that they have independent, inherent existence, and think of 'themselves' as seperate from all 'others'. Furthermore having right knowledge of Buddha's teachings is important even for a beginner so that when he experiences Presence, there will not be further confusion. Thusness said,
But do bear in mind that all the teachings that the Buddha taught can be experienced in this moment.. even the teachings of Emptiness and Interdependent Origination and non-locality (would be 'stage 6'), 4 Seals/3 Dharma Seals, 4 Noble Truths, etc can be seen (as an intuitive insight, direct experience).In Buddhism what that is most important is the no-mirror reflecting (stage 5). That is entry towards pathless and effortless. Without it, all rest is the bond at work and continual creation of wholesome actions to counter unwholesome action.
Many non-dual fail to realize the deep latent propensities in our consciousness. Not knowing that the progressive stages that one undergone are nothing but mere working of these tendencies. This is a pity. Failure to realize this, one fails to see how consciousness works.
Constant identification itself will create this pattern that sinks deep into consciousness. Take note. No one can escape, not even the Blessed One. There always has been no-self, there is only One Reality but the propensities over countless lifetimes will continue to take place through mere momentum. This is what we are all facing.Knowing this, right and firm establishment of view of the dharma seals is most crucial. Through diligent practice of mindfulness and together with the right views from start will help to prevent unnecessary pitfalls. Any transcendental experiences and insights that occurred during our journey will then be correctly understood. The experiences will in turn re-enforce our understanding instead of misleading us into the sense of 'Self' and further strengthen the bond.
Next.. apart from the training in morality, mental qualities/virtues which are also very important, the 'mind training' part of Buddhism which is essential for Enlightenment/Liberation can be categorised to two types... shamatha and vipashyana/vipassana.. shamatha being able to develope certain mental qualities, calmness, jhanas, and even psychic powers... and serves as a foundation for insight practise. Insight/Vipashyana/Vipassana practise is also deeply grounded on the Buddhist teachings.. (Buddhism is the only religion that teaches non-dualistic Insight practises, other religions' practises are mostly on concentration/shamatha, and self-inquiry is practised to lead one to experience witnessing presence) as a matter of fact the Buddha himself gave a lot of various instructions on various meditational practises and these practises are extremely successful as thousands of Buddha's students attained complete liberation as Arhats during Buddha's lifetime alone. When Ananda, one of Buddha's chief disciple (at that point in time he was not yet an Arhat) went around and asked the Arhats how they attained liberation, all testified that they attained liberation through the combinations of practises of Shamatha and Vipashyana. As Thusness said.. If you can't understand and see all of the teachings taking place right Now, then it is not true knowledge. Therefore this means that in Vipashayana/Insight practise, the teachings of the Buddha can be seen moment to moment.. for instance in Vipashyana, one may focus on the characteristics of existence, i.e the three dharma characteristics. Strong mindfulness and investigation penetrates the true nature of the sensate reality and the nature of impermanence, no-self/no-duality, suffering are directly experienced.. not merely as a form of knowledge. So the main message is not just learn about the teachings, but also do the practises. -
(continued from previous post)
In insight practise, reality is seen to be non dualistic (no self aspect) and self-liberating (impermanence aspect), therefore Vipashyana can be known as the effortless/choiceless non-dualistic 'practise' (hopefully that sounds neo-advaita enough
)... where not even a letting go is necessary because reality 'arises' itself, 'let goes' itself. Far from the 'dualistic practises' that the neo-advaitas always criticise (that's ok since Insight practise is found solely in Buddhism and meditational practises elsewhere belongs to the Shamatha category and are indeed, dualistic practises, used as a support for gathering strength and calmness but does not lead to insights and liberation), Vipashyana practises are not ritualistic practise but Insight Practise -- where strong investigative awareness leads to insights on reality away from the ritualistic conditioned mind which J Krishnamurti always talk about. Being non-dual in nature where no dualistic relationship is assumed, Vipashyana isn't something that 'someone' does to become 'enlightened', it does not lead to union of subject and object (union can only happen when dualistic relationship is assumed in the first place), it does not lead anywhere... only insights into the illusoriness of 'self', 'duality', 'permanence' and the reality of luminous-emptiness are gained. To say that 'someone becomes enlightened' is true on the relative level, on the ultimate level it is not seen to be so.From a pure insight practice point of view, you can’t ever fundamentally “let go” of anything, so I sometimes wish the popularity of this misleading and indifference-producing admonition would decline, or at least be properly explained. However, if you simply investigate the truth of the Three Characteristics of the sensations that seemed to be a solid thing, you will come to the wondrous realization that reality is continually “letting go” of itself! Thus, “let it go” at its best actually means, “don’t give a bunch of transient sensations an excessive sense of solidity.” It does not mean, “stop feeling or caring,” nor does it mean, “pretend that the noise in your mind is not there.”
~ Dharma Dan, ArhatI've found a wonderful definition of Vipasyana (Insight) Practise by Kalu Rinpoche from the "Luminous Mind" from another forum:
Here's another nice definition of Insight practise by Dharma Dan:
"When the mind abides in its natural state, its profound nature can gradually reveal itself, and all its qualities are uncovered. This is Vipassyana practise... Vipassyana...is to see clearly, to have insight into mind's nature and clear vision of its basic state.
...there are differences between the approaches of Shamatha and Vipassyana. Shamatha uses an object or reference, although a subtle one, upon which the mind meditates; a dualistic relationship is estblished between the mind and its object. In Vipassyana, however, mind and object are essentially one, not two, and remain this way.
...In Vipassyana, many thoughts go through the mind, but they are niether suppressed or followed. They arise and pass away without our having to interfere..Vipassyana...consists of letting go of thoughts, letting them be pacified and liberated by them selves..."
He mentions to always verify these experiences with a qualified teacher, to prevent from going astray.Some more about the difference between Samatha/Shamatha (Concentration) and Vipassana/Vipasshyana (Insight):
And the best thing about Buddhist practise is that if a practitioner just moronically follow the instructions and do the practise (therefore there is absolutely no need for 'search', just practise), he would certainly gain insights about reality. Just like self inquiry leads to the experience of Presence (you know that from your own experience with Ramana Maharshi's teachings on self-inquiry), Insight practise taught by Buddha works even more directly and leads directly to non-dual awakening, while self inquiry stops at witnessing presence, requiring a more enlightened master of traditions that practising self-enquiry to point out the non dual nature, whether in Buddhism or elsewhere.
...There is a lot of confusion on the differences between concentration practices and insight practices. This may be caused in part by the “Mushroom Factor,” or may be due in part to other factors, such as concentration practice being easier than insight practices and distinctly more pleasant most of the time. Concentration practices (samatha or samadhi practices) are meditation on a concept, an aggregate of many transient sensations, whereas insight practice is meditation on the many transient sensations just as they are. When doing concentration practices, one purposefully tries to fix or freeze the mind in a specific state, called an “absorption,” “jhana” or “dyana.” While reality cannot be frozen in this way, the illusion of solidity and stability certainly can be cultivated, and this is concentration practice.
Insight practices are designed to penetrate the Three Illusions of permanence, satisfactoriness and separate self so as to attain freedom. (N.B., the illusion of satisfactoriness has to do with the false sense that continuing to mentally create the illusion of a separate, permanent self will be satisfactory or helpful, and is not referring to some oppressive and fun-denying angst trip). Insight practices (various types of vipassana, dzogchen, zazen, etc.) lead to the progressive stages of the progress of insight. Insight practices tend to be difficult and somewhat disconcerting, as they are designed to deconstruct our deluded and much cherished views of the world and ourselves, though they can sometimes be outrageously blissful for frustratingly short periods....
~ Dharma Dan, Arhat...That night the abbot played a tape of a man describing the stages of insight. It blew my mind, as he described exactly what I had gone through in the previous 13 days. I could clearly see how the stages he was describing had unfolded, exactly where I was and what I had to do. I was also astounded that the path could be so reproducible and straightforward, that I could just follow moronically simple instructions and have it all happen. Those who want to get lost in the reaction, “No, it isn’t so simple. Awakening is a great and intractable mystery! You are lying! It mustn’t be so!” should take a few moments to seriously question exactly how this disempowering and inaccurate view helps them feel good about themselves. They should then take a few moments to find another, more empowering view that helps them feel good about themselves, step up to the plate, and hit a home run...
~ Dharma Dan, Arhat -
I seeOriginally posted by gigabyte14:im taoist.
It think it is a good to look around and learn more about the teachings of Buddha, even as a Taoist you can look into Buddhist teachings.. I do not see that the teachings of Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu are contradictory to Buddha's, therefore I have great interest in their teachings as well. As a matter of fact... many Buddhist masters consider Lao Tzu to be highly enlightened.. and it is a pity that most Taoists nowadays focus on the religious, supernatural (i.e consulting supernatural forces for worldly purposes) and cultural aspects forsaking the deeper core message of Lao Tzu/Taoism, which is the reason for its gradual decline in Singapore. -
So in other words you are saying that you are bullshit as well.....
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you're refering to JonLS right?Originally posted by :So in other words you are saying that you are bullshit as well..... -
Very good! Very well said!Originally posted by JonLS:Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
Cherrio -
somehow i jus feel that the newcomers came to create trouble.Originally posted by oldkid:Very good! Very well said!
Cherrio -
If his intention is really to sir and create trouble, the newcomer will have to face the consequence of his action.
However, we don't really know for sure in this case unless the person reveal to us honestly.
It could be wiser not to react too quickly and getting personal easily to what people say in this forum. This is my 1 ct point of view. I hope i'm not offending anybody here. -
You're the newcomer.Originally posted by gigabyte14:somehow i jus feel that the newcomers came to create trouble. -
I'm sorry if some of you were offended by my post, it certainly wasn't my intention to do that.Originally posted by JonLS:Do you want the truth?
The truth is there is no such thing as enlightenment.
There is no such thing as your true nature.
These are just words, concepts.
All there REALLY IS is THIS.
Right here and right now.
Spirituality and the spiritual search is just a big lie perpetuated by a bunch of egos.
Spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where you started from, to arrive at where you already are, right here and right now.
Why do we grasp so many ideas???
But really what I am saying is very clear and simple.
What I wrote here: "that spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where you started from, where you have always been, where you are right now" this is what I'm saying.
I'm right back at the beginning, where I started from, and from which I had never left.
The only difference at the end of the journey is that I know absolutely nothing. Thoughts still come, but thoughts are just thoughts, they are no longer grasped/believed.
So what is left then?
Just this.
Right here, right now. -
Ramana Maharshi:
"All you need do is get rid of the thought you're not realized".
But what he doesn't say is that you have to get rid of all other thoughts first.
The "enlightenment" thought is the last one to go. -
AnEternalNow wrote:
Emptiness is not to be grasped as an 'Absolute'
Emptiness cannot be grasped, nor does it have to be.
You can only be the emptiness, and you already are that.
To realize that, just let go of thoughts.
All thoughts.
Including all teachings. -
Originally posted by JonLS:Ramana Maharshi:
"All you need do is get rid of the thought you're not realized".
But what he doesn't say is that you have to get rid of all other thoughts first.
The "enlightenment" thought is the last one to go.Originally posted by JonLS:
AnEternalNow wrote:
Emptiness cannot be grasped, nor does it have to be.
You can only [b]be the emptiness, and you already are that.
To realize that, just let go of thoughts.
All thoughts.
Including all teachings. [/b]
--->
"When the mind abides in its natural state, its profound nature can gradually reveal itself, and all its qualities are uncovered. This is Vipassyana practise... Vipassyana...is to see clearly, to have insight into mind's nature and clear vision of its basic state.
...there are differences between the approaches of Shamatha and Vipassyana. Shamatha uses an object or reference, although a subtle one, upon which the mind meditates; a dualistic relationship is estblished between the mind and its object. In Vipassyana, however, mind and object are essentially one, not two, and remain this way.
...In Vipassyana, many thoughts go through the mind, but they are neither suppressed or followed. They arise and pass away without our having to interfere..Vipassyana...consists of letting go of thoughts, letting them be pacified and liberated by them selves..."
p.s. like I said, not even a 'letting go' is necessary with the wisdom of self-arising, reality naturally liberates/let goes -
MiscommunicationOriginally posted by JonLS:I'm sorry if some of you were offended by my post, it certainly wasn't my intention to do that.
But really what I am saying is very clear and simple.
What I wrote here: "that spirituality is a journey taken to arrive back at where you started from, where you have always been, where you are right now" this is what I'm saying.
I'm right back at the beginning, where I started from, and from which I had never left.
The only difference at the end of the journey is that I know absolutely nothing. Thoughts still come, but thoughts are just thoughts, they are no longer grasped/believed.
So what is left then?
Just this.
Right here, right now. Happy Chinese New Year to you, JonLS! 