Is it okay to lie for one who has taken the five percepts?
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Hi,
For one whom have taken and is trying to uphold the five percepts
it is okay to tell white lies ?
It is okay to tell lies for the right intention ?
For one who haven't uphold the five percepts, has to retake the five percepts. -
Originally posted by Isis:
Unless you are really wise and have great wisdom to use 'skillful means'. Otherwise better don't as you will probably create speech karma.
Hi,
For one whom have taken and is trying to uphold the five percepts
it is okay to tell white lies ?It is okay to tell lies for the right intention ?
Same as above.. need to have wisdom. Otherwise 'white lies' may just be an excuse and you will still end up having bad karma. -
thus i heard a simile, there was this hunter who was chasing this deer. the deer ran passed a monk/master and went toward the west. the hunter later come to ask the master regarding where the deer had gone. the master told the hunter that it had went toward the east. of such case, the master though commit false speech karma, but the karma weight of saving Both the deer from dying and saving the hunter from commiting killing had overide his false speech karma.
another story: Mencius was told to keep an honorable secret of a particular country's plan to attack Wei country. However, Mencius went to inform the Wei country, thinking that He rather be dishonored than cause a war to break between 2 countries and suffering of many.
so wisdom is still very important.
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here's Master Jing Jie's excellent explaination on the Vinaya:
how can the body of precept be destroy?
it's when one commit the 4 evil deeds - kill, steal, sexual misconduct and lying. and/or, one no longer wish to attain the unsurpassed bodhi, and live a un-righteous livelihood.
even if you break the percepts, we can only say you have a little mistakes. A inperfect/flawed bodhisattva. There's room for improvement. The body of precept/aspiration is not broken.
don't be afriad that after you take the precepts that you will break the precepts. Past masters would prefer one to uphold percept even if you break it and enter evil realms than one who don't uphold precepts and attain heavenly rebirth. Why? because even the former enter the evil realms, with the strength of the precepts, one can spring out easily, compare to the latter who do not. Chances for the latter to commit evil is inevitable.
Buddha not afraid you have affliction or you commit evil. Buddha most afraid you don't plant good seeds. As light can destroy darkness. Why is there no darkness, as there's light. Or to turn around is the safe shore. Buddha only afraid you don't turn around. As long as you can turn over a new leaf, there's always hope. Why do people have afflictions, because their good merits are not enough.
ps: if you study precept/lui/Vinaya carefully, it actually got 4 factors (which i need to check what are they call), but of which there's one which state that if it's a suitable time to break the precept and you do not break it, you are truly breaking the precept.
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2 years ago's archive:
i watched a korean movie called "Little Monk". The little monk have been living in the monastery from very young, and the Abbot have to enforce the 5 precepts on the little monk. Little monk recite the sutras everyday. And since he still do not understand what's the use of keeping precepts and do not know the real meaning (ie unenlighten yet)... few occasions, the little monk broke the precepts such as hunting rabbits and lying to the Abbot. The Abbot keep scoding and even punish the little monk, but he still don't get it. Until the end of the story (bad ending), the little monk cannot tolerate the attitude of the Abbot and left the monastrey to seek for his mother, which he long for, when seeing other kids have a mother.
Now, it's the little monk wrong, due to his ignorance/unenlightened?
we even as adults praxis are like the little monk, even though we recite /study the sutras and all, yet sometimes we still commit wrong, ...why? because we still are not enlightened. If we are enlightened, we would not be doing it.
In other word , are an unenlightened wrong, because they are unenlighten? Sadly, no.
From this i no longer see that there's wrong in others even if they commit wrong, as they are not enlighten as yet, just like the little monk in the story.
Was touch by this realisation.
ps: now that's newer realisation regarding "If we are enlightened, we would not be doing it." AS...
"If one's enlightened, even doing wrong is doing right. "
..but have to be careful when saying to unenlightened ppl though.
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sinweiy,
Your statement sounds hypocritical to me. Mistakes committed by others can be wrong while mistakes committed by you can be right. -
sinweiy,
I don't think he mean this. Perhaps what he meant was that with a good intention, there can be no such thing as a 'bad action'. But on the other hand, with a bad intention (selfish or greedy intention), even saving the lives of a million lives would lead you nowhere ultimately.
Your statement sounds hypocritical to me. Mistakes committed by others can be wrong while mistakes committed by you can be right.
But then, we do not have enough wisdom or capacity (as of now) to truely know if our intention is good or bad. Even though in such cases, I will still prefer to break a precept or commit a 'wrong action' for a greater good, we can never really know if we're acting under delusion. -
The best is still not to tell lies at all unless you are so sure that your white lies does more good than bad. The boundary of white lies may even extend to include non-white lies due to individual's habit.
Bear in mind that when you tell one lie, you may need to tell another ten lies to cover the 1st lie that you made, so there will be a multiplying effects. -
Dumbest thing I heard ever. Maybe good for the doer's mind only. But then saying this to the doer would encourage future stupidity because he can just keep a good intention and do all sorts of stupid things without trying to improve his methods.Originally posted by mahawarrior:with a good intention, there can be no such thing as a 'bad action'. -
Wisdom is necessary bah. That why compassion and wisdom must come togther, Instead of just compassion.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Dumbest thing I heard ever. Maybe good for the doer's mind only. But then saying this to the doer would encourage future stupidity because he can just keep a good intention and do all sorts of stupid things without trying to improve his methods. -
How do you know it is both wisdom and compassion instead of being an act of pure foolishness?Originally posted by Isis:Wisdom is necessary bah. That why compassion and wisdom must come togther, Instead of just compassion. -
Hi,Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:How do you know it is both wisdom and compassion instead of being an act of pure foolishness?
I'm simply implying that wisdom prevents act of pure foolishness. -
For one whom have taken and is trying to uphold the five perceptsOriginally posted by Isis:Hi,
For one whom have taken and is trying to uphold the five percepts
it is okay to tell white lies ?
It is okay to tell lies for the right intention ?
For one who haven't uphold the five percepts, has to retake the five percepts.
it is okay to tell white lies ?
For a person who is trying to uphold the five precepts, lying be it white or black is not allowed. The spiritually consequences is the emotional feeling within your heart which will disturb your practise. The first will lead to the second which in long term you may not be able to distingusih between the right and the wrong.
It is okay to tell lies for the right intention ?
What is a right intention? How do we measure it? Comtemplate on this, practisioner. What about thinking of what is the action done and the result obtained?
For one who haven't uphold the five percepts, has to retake the five percepts.[/ -
If you are the doctor, you know a certain patient have the advanced stages of cancer, would you straightaway announce to the patient and the relativesOriginally posted by Vipaka:For one whom have taken and is trying to uphold the five percepts
it is okay to tell white lies ?
For a person who is trying to uphold the five precepts, lying be it white or black is not allowed. The spiritually consequences is the emotional feeling within your heart which will disturb your practise. The first will lead to the second which in long term you may not be able to distingusih between the right and the wrong.
It is okay to tell lies for the right intention ?
What is a right intention? How do we measure it? Comtemplate on this, practisioner. What about thinking of what is the action done and the result obtained?
For one who haven't uphold the five percepts, has to retake the five percepts.[/
"this guy is in the advanced stages of cancer !"
I would like to hear from you , is it a white lie or a black lie to witheld the truth first ? -
then you wanna hide the truth until he die mehOriginally posted by bohiruci:If you are the doctor, you know a certain patient have the advanced stages of cancer, would you straightaway announce to the patient and the relatives
"this guy is in the advanced stages of cancer !"
I would like to hear from you , is it a white lie or a black lie to witheld the truth first ? -
if you have the benevolence of speech ,you will tell the relative /family memberOriginally posted by Eric Cartman:then you wanna hide the truth until he die meh
as a doctor this isnt lying
Precepts is to liberate one , not to tie ppl to be cold-blooded animals