Sleeping
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http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=238762&page=2
1. Irrationality. "By this I mean that Satori is not a conclusion to be reached by reasoning, and defies all intellectual determination. Those who have experienced it are always at a loss to explain it coherently or logically."
How do you rationalize something during sleep?2. Intuitive Insight. "That there is noetic quality in mystic experiences has been pointed out by (William) James...Another name for Satori is Kensho (chien-hsing in Chinese) meaning "to see essence or nature," which apparently proves that there is "seeing" or "perceiving" in Satori...Without this noetic quality Satori will lose all its pungency, for it is really the reason of Satori itself. "
So this is saying that we need to know.
etc etc... -
6. Impersonal Tone. "Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the Zen experience is that it has no personal note in it as is observable in Christian mystic experiences.";
Well I gave an impersonal tone when I posted luminosity is mind and there are no stories without mind.7. Feeling of exaltation. "That this feeling inevitably accompanies Satori is due to the fact that it is the breaking-up of the restriction imposed on one as an individual being, and this breaking up is not a mere negative incident but quite a positive one fraught with signification because it means an infinite expansion of the individual."
Yeah I felt exhalted thats why I made 2 topics.8. Momentariness. "Satori comes upon one abruptly and is a momentary experience. In fact, if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori.
That is exactly why I only experience it right when I wake up and so I post it right after I wake up. -
Oh no.. yet another "I am enlightened prove me wrong" thread
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3. Authoritativeness. "By this I mean that the knowledge realized by Satori is final, that no amount of logical argument can refute it. Being direct and personal it is sufficient unto itself. All that logic can do here is to explain it, to interpret it in connection to other kinds of knowledge with which our minds are filled. Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.
Guess how many pregnant teens said the same thing?4. Affirmation. "What is authoritative and final can never be negative. Though the Satori experience is sometimes expressed in negative terms, it is essentially an affirmative attidude towards all things that exist; it accepts them as they come along regardless of their moral values."
What?5. Sense of the Beyond. "...in Satori there is always what we may call a sense of the Beyond; the experience indeed is my own but I feel it to be rooted elsewhere. The individual shell in which my personality is so solidly encased explodes at the moment of Satori. Not, necessarily, that I get unified with a being greater than myself or absorbed in it, but that my individuality, which I found rigidly held together and definitely kept separate from other individual existences, becomes lossened somehow from its tightening grip and melts away into something indescribable, something which is of quite a different order from what I am accustomed to. The feeling that follows is that of complete release or a complete rest---the feeling that one has arrived finally at the destination...As far as the psychology of Satori is considered, a sense of the Beyond is all we can say about it; to call this the Beyond, the Absolute, or God, or a Person is to go further than the experience itself and to plunge into a theology or metaphysics."; See #5 above as well as Turiyatita.
Yeah! The other day I was walking my dog and I was thinking what kind of answer I want from buddhism. Then I remembered the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy and then I realised that if there were no question there would be no answer. There is answer only if there is question. (probably because now my dad is really starting to put in effort to change himself so all my frustrations are greatly lessened.) -
There is no mindfulness to penetrate reality during sleep. You simply cannot practise in sleep.. but non dual can naturally propel into even the dream phases and the subconscious/8th consciousness when you reach certain stage.
Ok so if you aren't conscious during your sleep then wait until you are conscious at the moment when you wake up.
Thusness said that I am done with the first round of non duality.Samadhi is just samadhi, a state of complete cessation of subject and object, a form of non dual absorption. It does not necessarily provides any insights at all.
It stops all thinking that would influence experience. -
Originally posted by Eric Cartman:
Ya, only when you practising at the moment you wake up loh.
Ok so if you aren't conscious during your sleep then wait until you are conscious at the moment when you wake up.Thusness said that I am done with the first round of non duality.
VERITABLE SOURCES PLSIt stops all thinking that would influence experience.
But very simply said: absorption does not mean insight. -
Well I gave an impersonal tone when I posted luminosity is mind and there are no stories without mind.
Whatever, that is just conceptual understanding.Yeah I felt exhalted thats why I made 2 topics.
-_-"
Exhalted here means feeling an infinite expansion. It is like a form of fusing, if I am not wrong.
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That is exactly why I only experience it right when I wake up and so I post it right after I wake up. -
NOT know but SEEING and BEING it..Originally posted by Eric Cartman:http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=238762&page=2
So this is saying that we need to know.
etc etc...Originally posted by JonLS:
AnEternalNow wrote:
Emptiness cannot be grasped, nor does it have to be.
You can only be the emptiness, and you already are that.
To realize that, just let go of thoughts.
All thoughts.
Including all teachings.
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Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of non-duality.
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious... -
Thusness said that I am done with the first round of non duality.
Thusness just said to me he did not make such authentications. Maybe you dreamt it up or something. -
Ya, only when you practising at the moment you wake up loh.
There is no one practising just let the awareness do its jobVERITABLE SOURCES PLS
To me the first round of non duality is a very clear stage of insight that there is no-self apart from the phenomenon we are experiencing. This is the intuitive insight into the truth of anatta. However not all can go beyond the sleeping phase and experience the first full cycle of non-dual experience. - Thusness's pm
And also from the msn logs you pasted to me.But very simply said: absorption does not mean insight.
Then what does? -
NOT know but SEEING and BEING it..
Yeah I've seen it and been itOur existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of non-duality.
Yeah less grasping makes it more obvious and sleeping is a great help
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious... -
Very true.. Non Duality/No Self implies pathlessness, no entry and exit.Originally posted by longchen:Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of non-duality.
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious... -
ex·alt·ed /ɪgˈzɔltɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ig-zawl-tid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. raised or elevated, as in rank or character; of high station: an exalted personage.
2. noble or elevated; lofty: an exalted style of writing.
3. rapturously excited. -
What's it like?There is no one practising just let the awareness do its job[/quote]
But most of the time you are just stuck on the content of your thoughts, you do not practise awareness.To me the first round of non duality is a very clear stage of insight that there is no-self apart from the phenomenon we are experiencing. This is the intuitive insight into the truth of anatta. However not all can go beyond the sleeping phase and experience the first full cycle of non-dual experience. - Thusness's pm
What the hell? Did I ever say anything like you attained first cycle of non dual?
And also from the msn logs you pasted to me.
And I never see anything from Thusness's PM about saying you have underwent the first round of non duality at allThen what does?
Read The Power of Now, page 110.
[quote]Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Yeah I've seen it and been it -
Yes it is a seal. A dharma seal in buddhism. Happy Chinese New Year.Originally posted by longchen:Our existence has ALWAYS been non dual. There is NEVER a moment that one is out of non-duality.
It is just that when thoughts are grasped... a 'self' is experienced... creating the perception of observer and the being observered.
There is really no entering into non-duality or getting out of it. Every moment is non-dual... but less grasping makes it more obvious...
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I am not so bold to make such claim, I myself ain't there yet.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Thusness said that I am done with the first round of non duality. -
But most of the time you are just stuck on the content of your thoughts, you do not practise awareness.
You're just relying on what you read somewhere when you say this aren't you?What the hell? Did I ever say anything like you attained first cycle of non dual?
As long as the descriptions fit what I have then it is good enough.
And I never see anything from Thusness's PM about saying you have underwent the first round of non duality at allWhat's it like?
It is like everything is mind and nothing is not mind. -
Read The Power of Now, page 110.
Can't find my book. -
Now i can relax down, de-grasps and not try to 'attain' non duality...Originally posted by Thusness:Yes it is a seal. A dharma seal in buddhism. Happy Chinese New Year.
Happy Chinese New Year, Thusness
PS: to those who have not had non dual experience yet... this doesn't mean that one need not practice.... non-dual experience still need to 'practice' to be experienced... Dunno how to put it clearly... -
Dreamless SleepOriginally posted by Eric Cartman:Can't find my book.
You take a journey into the Unmanifested every night when you enter the phase of deep dreamless sleep. You merge with the Source. You draw from it the vital energy that sustains you for a while when you return to the manifested, the world of separate forms. This energy is much more vital than food: "Man does not live by bread alone." But in dreamless sleep, you don't go into it consciously. Although the bodily functions are still operating, "you” no longer exist in that state. Can you imagine what it would be like to go into dreamless sleep with full consciousness? It is impossible to imagine it, because that state has no content.
The Unmanifested does not liberate you until you enter it consciously. That's why Jesus did not say the truth will make you free, but rather: "You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." This is not a conceptual truth. It is the truth of eternal life beyond form, which is known directly or not at all. But don' t attempt to stay conscious in dreamless sleep. It is highly unlikely that you will succeed. At most, you may remain conscious during the dream phase, but not beyond that. This is called lucid dreaming, which may be interesting and fascinating, but it is not liberating.
So use your inner body as a portal through which you enter the Unmanifested, and keep that portal open so that you stay connected with the Source at all times. It makes no difference, as far as the inner body is concerned, whether your outer physical body is old or young, frail or strong. The inner body is timeless. If you are not yet able to feel the inner body, use one of the other portals, although ultimately they are all one. Some I have spoken about at length already, but I'll mention them again briefly here.
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What Eckhart said here is roughly there. Except that Thusness implies that it is not necessary or impossible to enter dreamless sleep 'consciously' (ironically Eckhart's second paragraph's first sentence contradicts his first paragraph), which I believe would equate to a sense of Witnessing presence. This is not the same as deep dreamless sleep where even the sense of Witnessing presence dissolves into complete non dual absorption. -
Did I say I enter dreamless sleep consciously? The other time you were telling me that pure awareness is only correct if I can feel it even in deep dreamless sleep, to which confused me and I said I would need to meditate more to do that. Then shortly after that thusness started saying not to want to be conscious during deep sleep and that you misled jonls by introducing ken wilber to him, otherwise he would have realised emptiness by now.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:What Eckhart said here is roughly there. Except that Thusness implies that it is not necessary or impossible to enter dreamless sleep 'consciously', which I believe would equate to a sense of Witnessing presence. This is not the same as dreamless sleep.
You like to assume a lot dont you. -
The phrase "second-round of non-dual experience" is truly misleading. I used it merely for my own reference to account for certain experience. Not to be misled. I should not have used it; it has caused much confusions.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:To me the first round of non duality is a very clear stage of insight that there is no-self apart from the phenomenon we are experiencing. This is the intuitive insight into the truth of anatta. However not all can go beyond the sleeping phase and experience the first full cycle of non-dual experience -
As long as the descriptions fit what I have then it is good enough.
It only fits YOUR own interpretations of other's words. That is ridiculous. By what you said, you meant that you can interprete anyones' words to fit your own experience, even though it is not what the original author intended. You are implying there is no need for authentication, you can do yourself by any-how interpreting others' experience as your own. Sounds like cult master.It is like everything is mind and nothing is not mind.
You did not see it, you only concluded it. -
It only fits YOUR own interpretations of other's words. That is ridiculous. By what you said, you meant that you can interprete anyones' words to fit your own experience, even though it is not what the original author intended. You are implying there is no need for authentication, you can do yourself by any-how interpreting others' experience as your own. Sounds like cult master.
So now I am bringing it all up and see if you can convince me otherwise.You did not see it, you only concluded it.
Right now I conclude it because that feeling is gone. I saw it when I was waking up.