Buddhism's take on fate
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As per topic, what's buddhism's take on fate? Is everything from the day we are born to we been laid to rest all in a predestined chapter? Who we meet in our lifes, what we accomplished, are all those predetermined? Or is everything on going, influenced by karma?
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My understanding is that:Originally posted by crescent:As per topic, what's buddhism's take on fate? Is everything from the day we are born to we been laid to rest all in a predestined chapter? Who we meet in our lifes, what we accomplished, are all those predetermined? Or is everything on going, influenced by karma?
Predestined/ Predetermined? No. We do not believe in the concept of a nebulous supreme being whose will determines our fate.
Influenced by Karma? Yes, and for this reason, it is in our own hands to change our destiny. -
I would like to see you change your immutable karma with death.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:My understanding is that:
Predestined/ Predetermined? No. We do not believe in the concept of a nebulous supreme being whose will determines our fate.
Influenced by Karma? Yes, and for this reason, it is in our own hands to change our destiny.
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In Buddhism, Karma is not pre-determinism, fatalism or accidentalism, as all these ideas lead to inaction and destroy motivation and human effort that a human being can change for the better no matter what his or her past was and are designated as "wrong view" in Buddhism.Originally posted by crescent:As per topic, what's buddhism's take on fate? Is everything from the day we are born to we been laid to rest all in a predestined chapter? Who we meet in our lifes, what we accomplished, are all those predetermined? Or is everything on going, influenced by karma?
1. Pubbekatahetuvada: The belief that all happiness and suffering arise from previous karma (Past-action determinism).
2. Issaranimmanahetuvada: The belief that all happiness and suffering are caused by the directives of a Supreme Being (Theistic determinism).
3. Ahetu-apaccayavada: The belief that all happiness and suffering are random, having no cause (Indeterminism or Accidentalism).
"Bhikkhus, adhering to previously done kamma as the essence, there are neither motivation nor effort with what should be done and what should not be done ... Not upholding ardently what should be done, nor abandoning what should be abandoned, those ascetics and Brahmins are as if deluded, lacking a control, incapable of having any true teaching. (Buddha)
In Buddhism, Karma is simply there as a guide and an indication of what your present is and how one's future can be made better by self effort, otherwise, fatalism and pre-determinism is the anti-thesis of the notion of perfection or self-conquest - which is the primary aim of Buddhism.
The Buddha asserts effort and motivation as the crucial factors in deciding the ethical value of these various teachings on kamma.(P.A. Payutto).
In the story of the Indra's Net, the light that streams back and forth throughout the display is the analogy of karma. The word "karma" does not mean anything like "the result of a past good or bad action." "Karma" refers to an action, or, more specifically, to an intentional action, and the Buddhist theory holds that every karma (every intentional action) will bear karmic fruit (produce an effect somewhere down the line). Volitional acts drive the universe. The consequences of this view often confound our ordinary expectations -- much in the way quantum physics has results that are strongly counterintuitive.
Therefore, karma is a conditioning factor, not a pre-determining factor. It can be changed and transformed according to human will (cetanaa) in relation with the agent's conditions and efforts as well as his surroundings, whether material, spiritual, educational, cultural, or social.Kamma is neither fatalism nor a doctrine of
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm
predetermination. The past influences the
present but does not dominate it, for Kamma
is past as well as present. The past and
present influence the future. The past is
a background against which life goes on
from moment to moment. The future is
yet to be. Only present moment exists
and the responsibility of using the present
moment for good or for ill lies with each
individual.Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:
"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."
It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine. Being created by an Almighty God who controls our destinies and predetermines our future, or being produced by an irresistible Karma that completely determines our fate and controls our lifeÂ’s course, independent of any free action on our part, is essentially the same. The only difference lies in the two words God and Karma. One could easily be substituted for the other, because the ultimate operation of both forces would be identical.
Such a fatalistic doctrine is not the Buddhist law of Karma.
According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.
They are:
1. Utu Niyama - physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
2. Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
3. Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
4. Dhamma Niyama - order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
5. Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.
Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Karma as such is only one of these five orders. Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver.
Of these five, the physical inorganic order and the order of the norm are more or less mechanistic, though they can be controlled to some extent by human ingenuity and the power of mind. For example, fire normally burns, and extreme cold freezes, but man has walked scatheless over fire and meditated naked on Himalayan snows; horticulturists have worked marvels with flowers and fruits; Yogis have performed levitation. Psychic law is equally mechanistic, but Buddhist training aims at control of mind, which is possible by right understanding and skilful volition. Karma law operates quite automatically and, when the Karma is powerful, man cannot interfere with its inexorable result though he may desire to do so; but here also right understanding and skilful volition can accomplish much and mould the future. Good Karma, persisted in, can thwart the reaping of bad Karma, or as some Western scholars prefer to say ‘action influence’, is certainly an intricate law whose working is fully comprehended only by a Buddha. The Buddhist aims at the final destruction of all Karma. -
It is what a man thinks of himself that really determines his fate.
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I disagree with Dhamma Niyama as it can mean any reason for doing evil deeds is also part and parcel of nature.
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btw I recommend you to read the thread "All About Buddhism ~ For Non-Buddhists and Buddhists", especially the part on KarmaOriginally posted by crescent:As per topic, what's buddhism's take on fate? Is everything from the day we are born to we been laid to rest all in a predestined chapter? Who we meet in our lifes, what we accomplished, are all those predetermined? Or is everything on going, influenced by karma?
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Not true.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I disagree with Dhamma Niyama as it can mean any reason for doing evil deeds is also part and parcel of nature.
Dhamma Niyama can be an influencing factor for one's action, but no evil deeds can ever be done can be done without intention, thus creating intentional Action/karma. A person can choose whether or not to steal whatever the circumstance may be. He may choose to be a beggar than a thief. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
You got to be kidding me. You want me to reharsh Chaos Theory arguement with you again?
Not true.
Dhamma Niyama can be an influencing factor for one's action, [b]but no evil deeds can ever be done can be done without intention, thus creating intentional Action/karma. A person can choose whether or not to steal whatever the circumstance may be. He may choose to be a beggar than a thief.[/b] -
Up to you.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:You got to be kidding me. You want me to reharsh Chaos Theory arguement with you again? -
Any action may bring unpredictable consquences, agree or not?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Up to you. -
For us, some actions are unpredictable, some actions are predictable.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Any action may bring unpredictable consquences, agree or not?
The Buddha can know the consequence of any action. -
The way to understanding Karma is this... you are born... you go to primary school... you end up in secondary school and the secondary school you end up with depends on your actions in primary school (Karma)... you graduate from studying... you get a job and the job you get depends on how well and what you graduated in (Karma)... you die... you are born... it continues from your previous life.
As you can see.. when you are in secondary school, even though you ended up in secondary school because of your performance in primary school, you still need to work hard at secondary school to finally graduate from university.
Your present life continued from previous life... it continues into your next life and where you end up in the next life (like which secondary school you end up depending on your primary school performance or you drop out after primary school and never made it into secondary school) depended on your previous life...
You cannot say, oh I ended up in secondary school because of my performance in primary school and so now that I am in secondary school, there is nothing I can do about anything because it is FATE.
What FATE?
You ended up in secondary school and did not drop out because of your performance in primary school, that is all. What has anything got to do with anything about FATE?
You make the choices, you suffer the consequences. -
a simple and clear cut example.niceOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:The way to understanding Karma is this... you are born... you go to primary school... you end up in secondary school and the secondary school you end up with depends on your actions in primary school (Karma)... you graduate from studying... you get a job and the job you get depends on how well and what you graduated in (Karma)... you die... you are born... it continues from your previous life.
As you can see.. when you are in secondary school, even though you ended up in secondary school because of your performance in primary school, you still need to work hard at secondary school to finally graduate from university.
Your present life continued from previous life... it continues into your next life and where you end up in the next life (like which secondary school you end up depending on your primary school performance or you drop out after primary school and never made it into secondary school) depended on your previous life...
You cannot say, oh I ended up in secondary school because of my performance in primary school and so now that I am in secondary school, there is nothing I can do about anything because it is FATE.
What FATE?
You ended up in secondary school and did not drop out because of your performance in primary school, that is all. What has anything got to do with anything about FATE?
You make the choices, you suffer the consequences.
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I would say that's the worst comparison I ever seen. I got engineers who graduated but end up as accountants.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The way to understanding Karma is this... you are born... you go to primary school... you end up in secondary school and the secondary school you end up with depends on your actions in primary school (Karma)... you graduate from studying... you get a job and the job you get depends on how well and what you graduated in (Karma)... you die... you are born... it continues from your previous life.
As you can see.. when you are in secondary school, even though you ended up in secondary school because of your performance in primary school, you still need to work hard at secondary school to finally graduate from university.
Your present life continued from previous life... it continues into your next life and where you end up in the next life (like which secondary school you end up depending on your primary school performance or you drop out after primary school and never made it into secondary school) depended on your previous life...
You cannot say, oh I ended up in secondary school because of my performance in primary school and so now that I am in secondary school, there is nothing I can do about anything because it is FATE.
What FATE?
You ended up in secondary school and did not drop out because of your performance in primary school, that is all. What has anything got to do with anything about FATE?
You make the choices, you suffer the consequences.
Who the fark would know what exactly the future would throw at you?
As for AEN's claim, that's pure irrationality. Why? Because Gautama would have avoided his death by disease and died naturally. -
So you're saying there's no fate as we know it on tv. Life is not fated. We decide what we go through. What we are going through now is because of what we did yesterday? So if we do something bad today, we suffer tmr. We do good today we live good tmr rite?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The way to understanding Karma is this... you are born... you go to primary school... you end up in secondary school and the secondary school you end up with depends on your actions in primary school (Karma)... you graduate from studying... you get a job and the job you get depends on how well and what you graduated in (Karma)... you die... you are born... it continues from your previous life.
As you can see.. when you are in secondary school, even though you ended up in secondary school because of your performance in primary school, you still need to work hard at secondary school to finally graduate from university.
Your present life continued from previous life... it continues into your next life and where you end up in the next life (like which secondary school you end up depending on your primary school performance or you drop out after primary school and never made it into secondary school) depended on your previous life...
You cannot say, oh I ended up in secondary school because of my performance in primary school and so now that I am in secondary school, there is nothing I can do about anything because it is FATE.
What FATE?
You ended up in secondary school and did not drop out because of your performance in primary school, that is all. What has anything got to do with anything about FATE?
You make the choices, you suffer the consequences.
Yours a clear and simple explanation. No offence to others but sometimes one just dun wanna read a whole chunk of text... -
But death is inevitable. When you are enlightened and have attained nirvana (which is not overnight) that you can pass such karmic event and be in birthless and deathless. Now isn't that changeable by one's mean? It's no longer fate you are discussing but it's changing one's destiny by own's means. So what is death to you? Is it physical or spiritual that you are referring to? If physically with the mental state of passing through death, then can you change your cause & effect of getting a cut and bleed to death? So what do mean by your sentence. Do kindly elaborate if you could.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I would like to see you change your immutable karma with death. -
Generally yes but it is a little more complicated than that... because what we do affect others and what others do affect us.Originally posted by airgrinder:So if we do something bad today, we suffer tmr. We do good today we live good tmr rite?
It is also complicated because "good" and "bad" are "empty" words...
It is complicated and so people tend to try to simplify and simplify and what do you get? In a sentence,
Do Compassionate deeds.
Then it gets complicated again when you consider
"Compassionate deeds."
because Compassionate Deeds are "empty" words
so you try to simplify and simplify and what do you get?
Be a compassionate person
Then it gets complicated again when you consider
"Be" or "become"
because "Be" and "become" are "empty" words
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When you come to a river, you need help to cross over it... or you can try to swim over it yourself... but if you are not at the river's edge, do you try to see which river you will be coming to? How far away is the next river? How wide will the next river be? How long will you take to reach the next river? Will someone traveling with you arrive at the next river as the same time as you?
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Just keep on traveling and do not stop... be mindful, be aware because people can only guide you and you must do the traveling yourself for no one can travel on your behalf.
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You might think that you are traveling in a circle and you are going nowhere. Or you might think that you are going forward and then backwards and you are not even traveling in a circle!
You take three steps forward and three steps back to where you started!
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You see, you can walk forward then backwards or you can travel in a straight line or you can travel in a circle, it does not matter... you are traveling into yourself, you are going deeper and deeper into yourself. -
It's matter of flexibilty with pinch of complexity and not fixed ideals. Decisions and choices can be altered and applied by one's will. Death by disease, isn't it also natural death? How do you rate death whether it is a natural one or unnatural one. Either ended up as engineer or accountant, what is it that a person isn't capable of if he/she is able to do engineering or accounting or math! at some level. Intuition or blind decisions? Comparisons are just comparisons and what's worst to you may not be so to others. They are just passing choices you make and over with the next. I would surely love to hear from you what is truly rational & irrational in a mixture of varied situations. I would have picked that black dress and not ended up with a pink number but it was an unexpected awesome night after all and it's over.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I would say that's the worst comparison I ever seen. I got engineers who graduated but end up as accountants.
Who the fark would know what exactly the future would throw at you?
As for AEN's claim, that's pure irrationality. Why? Because Gautama would have avoided his death by disease and died naturally. -
What's wrong with engineer trained ended up as accountant? That's also a form of karma. They worked hard to secure an engineering degree, followed by ACCA, and eventually secured a job as accountant. Isn't that Karma too?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I would say that's the worst comparison I ever seen. I got engineers who graduated but end up as accountants.
Who the fark would know what exactly the future would throw at you?
As for AEN's claim, that's pure irrationality. Why? Because Gautama would have avoided his death by disease and died naturally.
It's a normal path now that everyone gets a degree, but how well you score pretty much determind what you are going to get into the next stage. You don't work hard, you don't go anywhere. In plain language, you reap what you sow.
You cannot forsee what the future hold, because you don't have that level wisdom, simple as that, and that wisdom could only be attained through conscentious practise.
Last but not least, Gautama died of food poisoning, which is pretty natural for that era. -
That was Buddha's karma. Buddha still had karma so he suffered headaches, sickness, and didn't want to stop them. The difference is that a Buddha stops creating karma, while sentient beings are always creating karma.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:As for AEN's claim, that's pure irrationality. Why? Because Gautama would have avoided his death by disease and died naturally. -
Yes. But not only yesterday, but also past lives. Not only tomorrow, but also future lives.Originally posted by airgrinder:So you're saying there's no fate as we know it on tv. Life is not fated. We decide what we go through. What we are going through now is because of what we did yesterday? So if we do something bad today, we suffer tmr. We do good today we live good tmr rite? -
Death by disease is different from dying from natural causes(old age).Originally posted by paperflower:It's matter of flexibilty with pinch of complexity and not fixed ideals. Decisions and choices can be altered and applied by one's will. Death by disease, isn't it also natural death? How do you rate death whether it is a natural one or unnatural one. Either ended up as engineer or accountant, what is it that a person isn't capable of if he/she is able to do engineering or accounting or math! at some level. Intuition or blind decisions? Comparisons are just comparisons and what's worst to you may not be so to others. They are just passing choices you make and over with the next. I would surely love to hear from you what is truly rational & irrational in a mixture of varied situations. I would have picked that black dress and not ended up with a pink number but it was an unexpected awesome night after all and it's over.
I just disagree with the theory of Karma, that's all. -
Not really, you can work hard and plan well, but you really don't know where you would go.Originally posted by coolbluewater:What's wrong with engineer trained ended up as accountant? That's also a form of karma. They worked hard to secure an engineering degree, followed by ACCA, and eventually secured a job as accountant. Isn't that Karma too?
It's a normal path now that everyone gets a degree, but how well you score pretty much determind what you are going to get into the next stage. You don't work hard, you don't go anywhere. In plain language, you reap what you sow.
You cannot forsee what the future hold, because you don't have that level wisdom, simple as that, and that wisdom could only be attained through conscentious practise.
Last but not least, Gautama died of food poisoning, which is pretty natural for that era. -
ya understand. my "yesterday" and "tmr" are metal falls, opoos...metaphorsOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes. But not only yesterday, but also past lives. Not only tomorrow, but also future lives.
keke
I guess it is quite similar to some success teachings by motivational speakers like anthony robbins, barney wee, etc. "One is here because of the choice he makes"