ok just wondering... about the Uposatha Observance days
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look up
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y owl go delete his post?
isis, me oso been stuffin myself past few days. lealli gt to stop.
hz, bt me is no gossiper at all leh. -
Kapoh oso gossiper lehOriginally posted by Hello Kitty:y owl go delete his post?
isis, me oso been stuffin myself past few days. lealli gt to stop.
hz, bt me is no gossiper at all leh.
Byeeeeeeeee -
no, me oly concerned.
coz i had seen ur initial postin... -
Oh I see... yea... meditation really helps..Originally posted by Isis:Eh busy with preparation for my long-stay in oversea + some other important things like shifting things out of my hall and getting my compass test done all in this few days.... Don't ever do last-min packing! Going Gaga here... kind of regret manz....
but i still manage to squeeze 2 hours of meditation course today
After a day of rush, meditation is like therapy..... -
quote:
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http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html
Meditation and spontaneous manifestion
Meditation is a useful practice for one on a spiritual path. However, at a certain stage it can actually be a hinderance. This is when Will and goal is set for meditation.
At a certain level of realisation, one realises that all manifestations are spontaneously appearing. One discovers that Presence is always there and is not induced by meditation. Presence is experienced when the 'sense of self' is greatly diminished.
During this stage, meditation with a purpose become an act of 'sense of self' and Presence thus will not be experienced. At this time, Isness becomes apparent and all activities that are the doing of 'sense of self' become obvious too. It is during this time that meditation for the purpose of experiencing Presence may be discarded as the futility of such activities is understood. Presence is realised as being obvious when there is no attachment to objectives and thought contents...and thus can occur anywhere and anytime.
The dynamics of Presence is understood and the attachment to meditation is discarded. All of phenomena is clearly understood to be spontaneously appearing and any form of trying to modify the moment is seem as counterproductive.
Well, in a nutshell, these are my findings. Thanks for reading.
Note: It is not advisable to discard the practice of meditation before this stage of realisation is reached.
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I kind of agreed with that... experience headache when i put in too much effort while walking meditation. i do sense a sense of self willing myself....
but when i tried a more complex way of walking meditation, i don't feel there headache and become more relaz.... -
And then eventually all manifestations, including all thoughts, are just known to arising spontaneouslyOriginally posted by Isis:quote:
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http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html
Meditation and spontaneous manifestion
Meditation is a useful practice for one on a spiritual path. However, at a certain stage it can actually be a hinderance. This is when Will and goal is set for meditation.
At a certain level of realisation, one realises that all manifestations are spontaneously appearing. One discovers that Presence is always there and is not induced by meditation. Presence is experienced when the 'sense of self' is greatly diminished.
During this stage, [b]meditation with a purpose become an act of 'sense of self' and Presence thus will not be experienced. At this time, Isness becomes apparent and all activities that are the doing of 'sense of self' become obvious too. It is during this time that meditation for the purpose of experiencing Presence may be discarded as the futility of such activities is understood. Presence is realised as being obvious when there is no attachment to objectives and thought contents...and thus can occur anywhere and anytime.
The dynamics of Presence is understood and the attachment to meditation is discarded. All of phenomena is clearly understood to be spontaneously appearing and any form of trying to modify the moment is seem as counterproductive.
Well, in a nutshell, these are my findings. Thanks for reading.
Note: It is not advisable to discard the practice of meditation before this stage of realisation is reached.
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I kind of agreed with that... experience headache when i put in too much effort while walking meditation. i do sense a sense of self willing myself....
but when i tried a more complex way of walking meditation, i don't feel there headache and become more relaz....[/b][/quote]
Yes... we can't really 'will' ourselves into a state of meditation, because the true state of meditation is beyond thoughts and beyond self.. If you go deeper into the essence it is like what Longchen said.. the realisation must be no self, no doer. With self and doer realised for what is is and is gone, there is no need for a 'fa' to deal or overcome thoughts... then it becomes like what Diamond Sutra said, 'Yin Wu Shuo Zhu Er Sheng Qi Xin'. Just a recall of what Longchen said earlier on...
[quote]Originally posted by longchen:
your will/sense of self can never stop any emotions or feelings from arising. The trying to stop IS the aversion itself. Can you see... you are trying to stop a thought or a feeling with another thought. This can never work. Just give up trying to do anything about it.
Remember... 'sense of self' is not the doer of any action. This is a realisation.
good luck...
And though thoughts lessens tremendously (especially unnecessary thoughts), when a need arises it arises spontaneously out of prajna wisdom... but none of these obstructs our own meditation. However this requires deep realisations and isn't just something we just talk about it.. talking isn't of much help but just to share so that one has some basic idea about it.
p.s it wld have been clearer for you if you attended the dharma talk just now
it was great.. but anyway its just no yuan so you cant come today... so see you in future hehe -
Just found some 'ancient' jems in our forum
These discussions were in year 2004.
lame question on meditation
Longchen said:Hi,
Besides the Jhanas, have you experience pure empty Presence in a state of no thought? That is the true state of a Being. It is beyond the mind, beyond concepts.
This pure Presence is all pervading, yet void at the same time. In my experience, the Jhanas are different. Jhana's are like 'looking outward' in a meditation, pure Presence is 'looking inwards'. I can't describe it very well.
Pure presence can best be felt when a person is at the moment free from desires. Pure presence is like the ray that emits its properties into the mind. The properties of the pure presence form your personality.Hi Sangha,
Thusness replied:
I am in no position to say whether Pure presence is nibbana. I can only write from my own experience and understanding.
This pure presence is called Rigpa in Tibetan Buddhism. I am not a Buddhist in this life, but I was a Tibetan Monk of Nyingma school several lifetimes ago. That is why I still have a lot of interest in Buddhism.
About Rigpa, when we experience it. It is formless and empty and at the same time infinite and all pervading. It is NOT BLISS. Bliss is a samadhi state but it is not the true nature yet, it is still a state in the mind. I have bliss experiences also, in fact i have then now quite often outside of meditation also.
Rigpa is a presence of 'yourself' that is connect to everything in the universe. That is probably why the Buddha say that there is 'no self'. All is connect to all in the Dharmakaya. Rigpa is a part of the Dharmakaya. When in the state, there is no separation into you or me... We are all one thing which cannot be described.
However, I must say that even now, while reading this, we are already the rigpa. We do not realise this is because we THINK we are just the mind/personality. The mind/personality is a REFLECTION from rigpa. It is not the true self. If you understand what I am write, you may get a sudden awakening/realisation. And if the realisation is deep enough, your viewpoint or way of seeing the world will change.
Just my 2 cents...Hi LongChen,
Longchen asked:
Even the "inner" and "outer" are production of the analytical mind. Only the mind requires such division, concepts and thoughts. The Presence has no room for all these. It works through naturalness and directness. Too short to have time and too simple to have thought.
However even when one experiences this pure sense of existence, due to latent karmic tendencies, the mind will still attempt to create a formless-transparent-like entity ('I') experiencing "things". In reality there is no 'I'.
The 'Blueness' of the blue sky isn't 'I'.
Remain Silence and in Presence, all things are in their entirety.
No 'I' is required.
This itself is sufficient.
Happy Journey.Hi Thusness,
Thusness replied:
Thank you for your profound explanation.
May I ask ... how do one remain in Presence all the time. Does it require the clearing of all karmic tendencies (samcaras/samskara).
I understand that the Presence is there all the time. Is it possible to be in presence even when engaged in say a conversation with another person?
Currently, switching to witness state is only possible when I am not engaged in any conversation.
ThanksReply with Quote
Hi Long Chen,
Yes it is possible. But as much as I would not like to say, there is no what, where, when, why and how. Sounds senseless but it is true. These are what Naturalness is not.
Nevertheless, the mind will be stubbornly attached to this current mode of knowing because to the mind, it is all there is. It seems to be a destined journey that a sincere seeker has to continue penetrate its own depth, till it completely exhaust itself and meet its own DEATH. The death of the 'I'.
The giving up and full understanding of the poverty of the entire thinking and analytical mechanism will allow the mind to rest itself upon nothing. Here karmic tendency arises and ceases as it is, no effort to struggle is made.
This is the time effortless knowing arise. A complete clarity of ISness manisfesting as pure Presence.
Seek deep into the depth of our own self, there is always this Will, Effort..etc. This Unwillingless to let go, to be.
Simply put, it is this that separates.
Lastly try not to find a sit in the body. The true nature fills all space. Creating a boundary for What that is neither within nor without will eventually prove futile. Presence finds itself in Otherness. The body has created the illusion of 'inward' and divides. We have engaged ourselves in too much analysis and lost our intuitiveness and directness. Since u have experienced the pure Presence, sense the 'I' that holds and let go immeidately.
Presense always IS.
Nice Chat -
I was reminded of my earlier discussion with Thusness just now about the talk earlier on... anyway he likes it (he didnt come but I shared some of what I noted down) very much especially the Chinese verses which I will post below. Part of what I told him is about the part 'zhong jian yuan zhan kai lai'.. means that though it is said past thought is gone and future thought didn't arise, why say 'expand limitlessly'?
Here's what I shared with him on certain parts of the talk....the 'yuan zhan kai lai' he explains it with some explanatory text which i tink maybe from my master.. he says 'yuan zhan kai lai' is for fear of those who may get stuck in keeping/attaching to state of quiescence or stillness... and in that case there is still duality of subject and object, inner and outer...
p.s. Longchen's understanding has changed from the original posts through the recent years of deeper realisations.
comments: that means as my teacher explains... holding on a state of inner emptiness as opposed to the outer world, whereas in reality, both subject and object, inner and outer are one reality.
...whereas 'yuan zhan kai lai' means awareness is all pervading and is not limited to a state or having to use a fa... then he said in that state both mind and body drop off... and then he also say how emptiness is form form is emptiness...
When there is no more subject-object duality, mind-body drops off, awareness is completely not bounded by the body, and there is no states that are purer from another.. means both movement and quiescence are One Thusness.
Here are his verses... but I can't confirm the last line, though I think it should be right..
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Ahh icic...
thx for the sharing
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You're still awake too.. hehe.. So how's ur meditation?Originally posted by Isis:Ahh icic...
thx for the sharing
/\ -
Well, guess what...
eR i miss out the meditation session. The venerable was teaching about insight meditation... cos was too tired and overslept after moving stuffs out of hostel today.....
so explain why im awake now cos i had slept earlier.... but im gg to sleep soon.. -
Originally posted by Isis:Well, guess what...
eR i miss out the meditation session. The venerable was teaching about insight meditation... cos was too tired and overslept after moving stuffs out of hostel today.....
so explain why im awake now cos i had slept earlier.... but im gg to sleep soon..
Wah.. no stone kill no birds Ok lah good night.. when are you leaving for overseas? -
Monday! .... and i haven't start packing... still have some things to buy...
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MMM u know, i kept having disruption in learning dharma... cos i was too busy and tired and end up not committing.
Busy life = no enuff merits ? or yaun not that yet.....
Been thinking, i should be placing some priorities in spiritual life but of course not to the point of oblivion...steering towards another direction, perhaps...
btw i was trying hard to be mindful of my steps when im walking meditation..
but end up putting too much effort. i realise it is prior to some bad karma that i have done in the past that hindering me... it just hits me today, there same sensation arised in me.. ahh don't know am i right or not ? Thus i think it does not matter now. I think just repent when i meditate bah... -
Actually can't exactly blame everything on 'no yuan' as well... sometimes we let our yuan slip away. My dharma teacher reminded me indirectly about the importance of time management and poor time management and being late as being one example of our bad habits when I was late for one of their sessions... She said to the whole group but I know was directed to meOriginally posted by Isis:MMM u know, i kept having disruption in learning dharma... cos i was too busy and tired and end up not committing.
Busy life = no enuff merits ? or yaun not that yet.....
Been thinking, i should be placing some priorities in spiritual life but of course not to the point of oblivion...steering towards another direction, perhaps...
btw i was trying hard to be mindful of my steps when im walking meditation..
but end up putting too much effort. i realise it is prior to some bad karma that i have done in the past that hindering me... it just hits me today, there same sensation arised in me.. ahh don't know am i right or not ? Thus i think it does not matter now. I think just repent when i meditate bah... Actually I appreciate her frankness
By the way why you feel like you are putting too much effort? BTW if you think you have strong karma... which is a possibility... you can try some repentance. My teacher did mention about this point as well.. he said those with high 'geng qi' when listening to the dharma he taught, would instantaneously transcend.. transcend samsara. In fact the essence of the dharma he was teaching was about 'instantaneous transcendence' and was only taught in the past to people of higher capacity (but conditions have changed and in order to let the true dharma survive we have no choice but to pass down to the masses) But most of us, our karmic obscurations has blocked us from true knowing... and our habitual energies are too strong. As such we should try repentance... He also mentioned in the past those who seek this direct dharma had to practise repentance, 108 times everyday (that would be more than 45 minutes everyday of repeating the repentance verses and prostrations). On the other hand... whatever karmic obscurations or whatever you think you have... don't take them too seriously. As my teacher said as well, karma is just karma, it can only be a 'karmic obscuration' when you let it obscure you. -
mm effort to be more mindful of the right, left actions of my foot. Cos i really really don't want to be a sotong for the rest of my life.
mm there is alot of factors which i don't wish to discuss in open forum.
yes letting the yuan slip past.. think it has something to do with my current lifestyle and focus.... but then today i was really tired.. -
ok.... it is tuff to break habits. I had repented, yesterday though not 108 times but i still lose my patience and get angry today. Mmm from what i know meditation helps too. Just read on the practise of khanti now.... heh not easy i think.... but i really do agreed repentance works.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Actually can't exactly blame everything on 'no yuan' as well... sometimes we let our yuan slip away. My dharma teacher reminded me indirectly about the importance of time management and poor time management and being late as being one example of our bad habits when I was late for one of their sessions... She said to the whole group but I know was directed to me Actually I appreciate her frankness
By the way why you feel like you are putting too much effort? BTW if you think you have strong karma... which is a possibility... you can try some repentance. My teacher did mention about this point as well.. he said those with high 'geng qi' when listening to the dharma he taught, would instantaneously transcend.. transcend samsara. In fact the essence of the dharma he was teaching was about 'instantaneous transcendence' and was only taught in the past to people of higher capacity (but conditions have changed and in order to let the true dharma survive we have no choice but to pass down to the masses) But most of us, our karmic obscurations has blocked us from true knowing... and our habitual energies are too strong. As such we should try repentance... He also mentioned in the past those who seek this direct dharma had to practise repentance, 108 times everyday (that would be more than 45 minutes everyday of repeating the repentance verses and prostrations). On the other hand... whatever karmic obscurations or whatever you think you have... don't take them too seriously. As my teacher said as well, karma is just karma, it can only be a 'karmic obscuration' when you let it obscure you.
thx for the sharing. I will continue to try. : ) -
Icic...Originally posted by Isis:mm effort to be more mindful of the right, left actions of my foot. Cos i really really don't want to be a sotong for the rest of my life.
mm there is alot of factors which i don't wish to discuss in open forum.
yes letting the yuan slip past.. think it has something to do with my current lifestyle and focus.... but then today i was really tired..
Regarding effort and mindfulness... Thusness and us had some discussion about this as well... the conversation is v long and I only copy a small part here..
(10:48 PM) Thusness: now...not to understand estimate all words we use
(10:48 PM) Thusness: when we say 'sound', 'taste'...
(10:48 PM) Thusness: immediately these words and symbols carry meanings
(10:49 PM) Thusness: they chain and link
(10:49 PM) Thusness: they have imprints
(10:49 PM) Thusness: therefore insight meditation is taught
(10:49 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:49 PM) Thusness: many underestimated the power of these 'bonds'
(10:49 PM) Thusness: prevent one from seeing...
(10:49 PM) Thusness: there is no true seeing...
(10:49 PM) Me: icic..
(10:50 PM) Thusness: what are sensations?
(10:50 PM) Thusness: it is a word that carries certain meaning
(10:50 PM) Thusness: when we say 'taste' is a form of sensation...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: immediately we are bonded though we think we know what we are talking about.
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we only think...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we do not know...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we do not know a lot of things
(10:51 PM) Thusness: when we practice, we are not practicing to attain the ultimate
(10:51 PM) Thusness: there is nothing to attain
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we only attempt to create conditions to experience certain aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:52 PM) Thusness: when we put attention into mindfulness, into 'bare' attention
(10:53 PM) Thusness: 'seeing' bare, we actually give up other aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that is the effortless spontaneity
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so when someone teach mindfulness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he said put in effort to be bare in attention....he is not wrong
(10:54 PM) Thusness: when some one said no no no, gentle effort in being mindfulness and be bare in attention
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he is also not wrong
(10:55 PM) Thusness: for all these paths are truly pathless
(10:55 PM) Thusness: one that think he knows what is pathless doesn't really know.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: he thinks effortless is doing nothing, laze around
(10:55 PM) Thusness: and when he act, he thought that is effort
(10:55 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:56 PM) Thusness: it is a misunderstanding of a dualistic mind.
(10:56 PM) Thusness: this is another tricky part of awareness
(10:56 PM) Thusness: its all pervadingness
(10:57 PM) Thusness: say that after u understand the 'Self' as everything, why need meditation
(10:57 PM) Thusness: and dogen said, must meditate, even buddha meditate
(10:58 PM) Thusness: and said thought not necessary, still meditate
(10:58 PM) Thusness: keekekeke
(10:58 PM) Thusness: then said practice and enligthenment is one
(10:58 PM) Thusness: that is pathless
(10:58 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:58 PM) Thusness: neither do we do away with forms nor not forms
(10:59 PM) Thusness: this is another tricky part
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But in the case if you feel you are 'putting too much effort', I would say that is a problem of focusing too hard... bare attention isn't just a matter of focusing or concentrating... in a way it is effortless awareness. Why effortless? Does it take effort to hear or see what is happening around you? Awareness is ever-present no matter what... and it takes place effortlessly and spontaneously. It takes no effort to hear the keyboard sound as I'm typing. It takes no effort to see the words that are appearing on the screen. Insight meditation or any form of "practising" naked awareness is pointing to this. As Thusness says, "clarity must be effortless and spontaneous...and that has to do with dissolving the sense of self."Enlightenment, True Nature, True Self, Wholeness, the Unconditioned Absolute - whatever words have been given to what is without words, unthinkable, unknowable, ungraspable - is not the effect of a cause. It is luminously present and timeless, overlooked by the roving intellect that is trying to grasp it, and obscured by the bodymind's constantly shifting moods, desires, and fears. Moment-to-moment meditation is clearly coming upon this roving and shifting, resisting and fearing mind and the urge to do something about it!... Meditation that is free and effortless, without goal, without expectation, is an expression of Pure Being that has nowhere to go, nothing to get.
But then again is effort needed? In another sense, yes.. in terms of the 7 factors of enlightenment, it is called 'energy'.
There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who dos it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist.
~ The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing by Toni Packer
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe14.html - Mindfulness in Plain English...Concentration and mindfulness are distinctly different functions. They each have their role to play in meditation, and the relationship between them is definite and delicate. Concentration is often called one-pointedness of mind. It consists of forcing the mind to remain on one static point. Please note the word FORCE....
So I think you are putting too much 'FORCE' in concentrating on a static point and blocking out any 'extras'... so some balancing may be needed..
...Concentration is pretty much a forced type of activity. It can be developed by force, by sheer unremitting willpower. And once developed, it retains some of that forced flavor. Mindfulness, on the other hand, is a delicate function leading to refined sensibilities. These two are partners in the job of meditation. Mindfulness is the sensitive one. He notices things. Concentration provides the power. He keeps the attention pinned down to one item. Ideally, mindfulness is in this relationship. Mindfulness picks the objects of attention, and notices when the attention has gone astray. Concentration does the actual work of holding the attention steady on that chosen object. If either of these partners is weak, your meditation goes astray....
...You can't develop mindfulness by force. Active teeth gritting willpower won't do you any good at all. As a matter of fact, it will hinder progress. Mindfulness cannot be cultivated by struggle. It grows by realizing, by letting go, by just settling down in the moment and letting yourself get comfortable with whatever you are experiencing. This does not mean that mindfulness happens all by itself. Far from it. Energy is required. Effort is required. But this effort is different from force. Mindfulness is cultivated by a gentle effort, by effortless effort. The meditator cultivates mindfulness by constantly reminding himself in a gentle way to maintain his awareness of whatever is happening right now. Persistence and a light touch are the secrets. Mindfulness is cultivated by constantly pulling oneself back to a state of awareness, gently, gently, gently... -
hanor i realise i put too much force...
ehh then how come the jhana state... is supposedly be of blissful state?
If forced, then it will be.... ?? jus wondering... -
Whether it is jhanic state or not , it still depends on individual ,doesnt mean meditation can enter samadhi ,and chanting cant
I also can enter samadhi ,without forcing on pheonomenon that come
the underlying issue is to "let go " -
Some Comments:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I was reminded of my earlier discussion with Thusness just now about the talk earlier on... anyway he likes it (he didnt come but I shared some of what I noted down) very much especially the Chinese verses which I will post below. Part of what I told him is about the part 'zhong jian yuan zhan kai lai'.. means that though it is said past thought is gone and future thought didn't arise, why say 'expand limitlessly'?
Here's what I shared with him on certain parts of the talk.
p.s. Longchen's understanding has changed from the original posts through the recent years of deeper realisations.
I think what your master did is to provide a path towards experiencing the ‘nakedness’ of awareness. It is to allow one to have a first glimpse of what awareness is like, i.e, to have a direct experience of awareness as luminous clarity. Here due to our habitual propensities, awareness is most likely experienced like a mirror reflecting phenomenon. It is unlikely that the non-dual nature will be understood.
It will not be obvious that when we talk about awareness, it has to be no-self, that all along, awareness has never been dual. This is its nature. This understanding comes only when the teaching of Dharma has sunk sufficiently deep to create the condition for the arising of this insight or when we have go through hell lot of effort to ‘keep’ this ‘nakedness’ until we realized that there is no way to keep this nakedness unless there is no-self. I must say that it is a process of trail and error and diligent practice. Through this process, there is a gradual understanding of the importance of being ‘effortless’ to have the sustain clarity. The process continues till the ‘Ah Ha’ sort of insight dawn upon us, that truly this has along been the way, that awareness has always been non-dual, there is no-self from start, it is truly a seal.
It should not be a straight jump into the non-dual aspect and the direct experience of 'Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form'. I think to for explanatory purposes, the phases, causes and conditions must be expounded more clearly. -
The msn conversation is a topic about efforting leading effortless realisation. Why was not mentioned so that we would not just brush through conversations making it meaningless unless we sincerely want to understand how consciousness works.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:So I think you are putting too much 'FORCE' in concentrating on a static point and blocking out any 'extras'... so some balancing may be needed..
Why ‘efforting’ is necessary towards understanding the ‘effortless’?
This is just the way it is when the mind is in a dualistic mode and the reason lies in propensities, another function of consciousness, it creates imprints naturally. A teaching that does not include this aspect is not knowing enough of how consciousness works. Effort always creates imprints unless spontaneity of our nature is experienced due to the dissolution of self.
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Although the world may appear dualistic,
In reality it is all manifestation of the One Awareness.
Even though in essence Awareness never loses its non-dual nature,
We are lost in dualism by the made-belief of our perceptual bond.
What we called understanding, thinking and analysis,
Is nothing more than the busy business of fitting known facts into a dualistic framework.
How we came to see the world as dualistic is astonishing,
It is all due to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols.
Not to underestimate the incessant function of consciousness to form imprints upon itself,
This is the amazing power that makes illusions appear real.
It is a magical spell that cannot be broken easily.
-- Thusness
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Place equal importance to this function of consciousness. -
Icic..Originally posted by Thusness:Some Comments:
I think what your master did is to provide a path towards experiencing the ‘nakedness’ of awareness. It is to allow one to have a first glimpse of what awareness is like, i.e, to have a direct experience of awareness as luminous clarity. Here due to our habitual propensities, awareness is most likely experienced like a mirror reflecting phenomenon. It is unlikely that the non-dual nature will be understood.
It will not be obvious that when we talk about awareness, it has to be no-self, that all along, awareness has never been dual. This is its nature. This understanding comes only when the teaching of Dharma has sunk sufficiently deep to create the condition for the arising of this insight or when we have go through hell lot of effort to ‘keep’ this ‘nakedness’ until we realized that there is no way to keep this nakedness unless there is no-self. I must say that it is a process of trail and error and diligent practice. Through this process, there is a gradual understanding of the importance of being ‘effortless’ to have the sustain clarity. The process continues till the ‘Ah Ha’ sort of insight dawn upon us, that truly this has along been the way, that awareness has always been non-dual, there is no-self from start, it is truly a seal.
It should not be a straight jump into the non-dual aspect and the direct experience of 'Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form'. I think to for explanatory purposes, the phases, causes and conditions must be expounded more clearly. -
Erm.. so are you saying we need to employ effort to create some sort of imprints? What imprints?Originally posted by Thusness:The msn conversation is a topic about efforting leading effortless realisation. Why was not mentioned so that we would not just brush through conversations making it meaningless unless we sincerely want to understand how consciousness works.
Why ‘efforting’ is necessary towards understanding the ‘effortless’?
This is just the way it is when the mind is in a dualistic mode and the reason lies in propensities, another function of consciousness, it creates imprints naturally. A teaching that does not include this aspect is not knowing enough of how consciousness works. Effort always creates imprints unless spontaneity of our nature is experienced due to the dissolution of self.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although the world may appear dualistic,
In reality it is all manifestation of the One Awareness.
Even though in essence Awareness never loses its non-dual nature,
We are lost in dualism by the made-belief of our perceptual bond.
What we called understanding, thinking and analysis,
Is nothing more than the busy business of fitting known facts into a dualistic framework.
How we came to see the world as dualistic is astonishing,
It is all due to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols.
Not to underestimate the incessant function of consciousness to form imprints upon itself,
This is the amazing power that makes illusions appear real.
It is a magical spell that cannot be broken easily.
-- Thusness
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Place equal importance to this function of consciousness.