ok just wondering... about the Uposatha Observance days
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This is because when the jhana factors arise it becomes very very easy and seemingly effortless to become absorbed with that sort of jhanic factors like ruptures, etc. That is the whole point of jhana. When you become absorbed in these jhanic factors then there is stability in that absorption. But it is not forced... there is no difficulty at all in maintaining the state of jhana because of the factors. My first impression of these experiences from my past experience is like I am being absorbed into a different state of consciousness... and in a way you can say so..Originally posted by Isis:hanor i realise i put too much force...
ehh then how come the jhana state... is supposedly be of blissful state?
If forced, then it will be.... ?? jus wondering... -
No. I am saying we are always creating imprints as long as we are dualistic. This means 'efforting', 'doing' is the way it is as long as there is 'self'. 'Efforting' is like placing anything on a patch of grass that causes a figure being impressed on it. There is no 'why', this is how it is. However don't misinterpreted non-doing as "idling doing nothing", it has to do with the dissolution of 'Self/self' and spontaneity.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Erm.. so are you saying we need to employ effort to create some sort of imprints? What imprints? -
I see... so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?Originally posted by Thusness:No. I am saying we are always creating imprints as long as we are dualistic. This means 'efforting', 'doing' is the way it is as long as there is 'self'. 'Efforting' is like placing anything on a patch of grass that causes a figure being impressed on it. There is no 'why', this is how it is. However don't misinterpreted non-doing as "idling doing nothing", it has to do with the dissolution of 'Self/self' and spontaneity.
Next just to clarify some points of the previous MSN discussion..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: when we practice, we are not practicing to attain the ultimate
(10:51 PM) Thusness: there is nothing to attain
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we only attempt to create conditions to experience certain aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:52 PM) Thusness: when we put attention into mindfulness, into 'bare' attention
(10:53 PM) Thusness: 'seeing' bare, we actually give up other aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that is the effortless spontaneity
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so when someone teach mindfulness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he said put in effort to be bare in attention....he is not wrong
(10:54 PM) Thusness: when some one said no no no, gentle effort in being mindfulness and be bare in attention
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he is also not wrong
(10:55 PM) Thusness: for all these paths are truly pathless
(10:55 PM) Thusness: one that think he knows what is pathless doesn't really know.
So bare attention leads to? As you said previously the first glimpse of pristine awareness? Then what about other aspects like you said... what other aspects? There are other forms of practice? -
Other aspects includes the effortless spontaneity as mentioned above. Non-locality is another but at present I do not want to go into it.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I see... so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?
Next just to clarify some points of the previous MSN discussion..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: when we practice, we are not practicing to attain the ultimate
(10:51 PM) Thusness: there is nothing to attain
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we only attempt to create conditions to experience certain aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:52 PM) Thusness: when we put attention into mindfulness, into 'bare' attention
(10:53 PM) Thusness: 'seeing' bare, we actually give up other aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that is the effortless spontaneity
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so when someone teach mindfulness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he said put in effort to be bare in attention....he is not wrong
(10:54 PM) Thusness: when some one said no no no, gentle effort in being mindfulness and be bare in attention
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he is also not wrong
(10:55 PM) Thusness: for all these paths are truly pathless
(10:55 PM) Thusness: one that think he knows what is pathless doesn't really know.
So bare attention leads to? As you said previously the first glimpse of pristine awareness? Then what about other aspects like you said... what other aspects? There are other forms of practice? -
Ok... but there is no way to 'practise' to 'build the conditions' for spontaneity right? (since spontaneity is 'effortless') Which comes back to the question you havent answered meOriginally posted by Thusness:Other aspects includes the effortless spontaneity as mentioned above. Non-locality is another but at present I do not want to go into it.
"so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?" -
Gosh...this comes to another one of our discussions, oneness, paradox and polarity. Paradox makes something stands as opposite whereas polarity complement each other. Sometimes giving up itself entirely for the other pole to arise is also Oneness.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Ok... but there is no way to 'practise' to 'build the conditions' for spontaneity right? Which comes back to the question you havent answered me "so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?" -
Oh haha.. yea realised it's the old discussionsOriginally posted by Thusness:Gosh...this comes to another one of our discussions, oneness, paradox and polarity. Paradox makes something stands as opposite whereas polarity complement each other. Sometimes giving up itself entirely for the other pole to arise is also Oneness.
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i should give up clinging to this sense of self and having no expectation to achieve something and just meditate.. mm am i right?[/quote]Originally posted by Thusness:Gosh...this comes to another one of our discussions, oneness, paradox and polarity. Paradox makes something stands as opposite whereas polarity complement each other. Sometimes giving up itself entirely for the other pole to arise is also Oneness. -
Fully agreed... especially the part 'having no expectation to achieve something' -- this applies to every single Buddhist practiseOriginally posted by Isis:
Just practise and don't have a second thought or expect something.. Thusness also mentioned about this before. -
Hi Isis,Originally posted by Isis:
i should give up clinging to this sense of self and having no expectation to achieve something and just meditate.. mm am i right?
You can treat non-duality as a form of experience without an object and subject split. Experience of non-duality results in bliss or jhanic states. We may enter non-dual mainly through:
1. Concentration
Here object and subject fused into one through the sustain power of concentration. One enters into a state of absorption and samadhi. This is the way of ‘efforting’ that has an entry and exit point. Self is temporary suspended by ‘forget it through absorption’.
2. Wisdom
This is the experience of non-duality through realization and insight. In this case, non-duality is experienced as our nature. It is always so. This is the effortless and spontaneous way. There is no entry and exit at all. All dualism are but ignorance of our non-dual nature. Self is realized as an illusion. There is no self apart from the manifestation.
In both cases, non-duality is all about the dissolution of ‘self/Self’. The sense of self is caused either by:
1. The illusionary view of an agent. The view of ‘I’ or
2. Attachment to objectives and possession, that is, objective action. The view of ‘mine’.
What is said is more on the second aspect but realisation that there is no agent is equally important. -
Yes I have noticed arising of ruptures and bliss much like jhanas during temporary experiences of non duality through 'absorption'.Originally posted by Thusness:Hi Isis,
You can treat non-duality as a form of experience without an object and subject split. Experience of non-duality results in bliss or jhanic states. We may enter non-dual mainly through: