What is Koan?
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Typical Zen koans are so.Originally posted by paperflower:what is living in the moment exactly?
so koan is about living in the moment?
why are the training made so tough with sometimes un-answerable questions and yet need answers and may regarded as not answers also?
Sometimes, you will realise that is no particular answer or even no answer at all to a certain situation.
It is understood that once you mastered the precepts of Zen, you have to lost it to go on in life. -
Because if koans are rational, it cannot take that person beyond rationality, conceptuality and duality.. like the pervious post stated. There can be no right or wrong, yes or no answer. Questions such as 'Right now, neither thinking good or bad, what is your original face before birth?' has no rational conceptual answers. A zen practitioner works at this for a very very long time until he attains an awakening which transcends ordinary dualistic consciousness.Originally posted by paperflower:why are the training made so tough with sometimes un-answerable questions and yet need answers and may regarded as not answers also?
In fact I already answered your question... read the previous post carefully
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My humble take on Koan is to see it as a kind of "summary" of the Dharma. So one still need to frist understand the Dharma well before one can understand the summary. Thus I think if one cannot understand certain koans, its perfectly natural, don't need to feel frustrated over it, just continue to sturdy the Dharma as much as possible. I also see the koans as a way of "checking" our mind awareness or to provoke our ways of seeing things( phenomenon). Its' quite interesting actually, but as I've said, if we just don't get it, we don't. No problem.
Yes, I agreed with Bohiruchi and Aen, we don't study the koans for ans. Koan is not the main menu, the main course for most of us now shld be the Dharma. -
Koans are not really a summary of the Dharma, because a summary is still in terms of understanding. Koan transcends all conceptual understandings. It is a method that is meant to be practised, it cannot be understood in any other way than to actually awaken to the truth beyond our conceptual mind.Originally posted by cycle:My humble take on Koan is to see it as a kind of "summary" of the Dharma. So one still need to frist understand the Dharma well before one can understand the summary. Thus I think if one cannot understand certain koans, its perfectly natural, don't need to feel frustrated over it, just continue to sturdy the Dharma as much as possible. I also see the koans as a way of "checking" our mind awareness or to provoke our ways of seeing things( phenomenon). Its' quite interesting actually, but as I've said, if we just don't get it, we don't. No problem.
Yes, I agreed with Bohiruchi and Aen, we don't study the koans for ans. Koan is not the main menu, the main course for most of us now shld be the Dharma.
We can never 'understand' koans with the way our mind usually perceives things... and any answers that comes out of our conceptual framework, you'll get hit by the zen master The koan is just a signpost to the moon, don't study the signpost, use the signpost to get to the moon. -
*whacks AEN on head for trying to express true meaning of koan in words.*
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I never tried to express meaning. It cannot be done.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:*whacks AEN on head for trying to express true meaning of koan in words.*
Koan question: Why did Bodhidharma come to the east?
Zen answer: The cyprus tree in the garden.
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(12:18 AM) Thusness: first thing ask oneself, are there symbols attached to experience?
(12:18 AM) Thusness: are there any meanings attached to these symbols?
(12:19 AM) Thusness: if what is felt and understand are the meaning of the symbols, then there is a waste of time.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: in meditation, it is the nakedness, the qualities of our luminosity that is experienced.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: like clarity, spontaniety, blissfulness, realness, energy...
(12:20 AM) Thusness: nothing to do with symbols, meaning, purpose...etc -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Mu....
I never tried to express meaning. It cannot be done.
Koan question: Why did Bodhidharma come to the east?
Zen answer: The cyprus tree in the garden.
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(12:18 AM) Thusness: first thing ask oneself, are there symbols attached to experience?
(12:18 AM) Thusness: are there any meanings attached to these symbols?
[b](12:19 AM) Thusness: if what is felt and understand are the meaning of the symbols, then there is a waste of time.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: in meditation, it is the nakedness, the qualities of our luminosity that is experienced.
(12:20 AM) Thusness: like clarity, spontaniety, blissfulness, realness, energy...
(12:20 AM) Thusness: nothing to do with symbols, meaning, purpose...etc[/b] -
ok... i read this thread over and over again quite a number of times including AEN's posts plus the rest. thanks, people.
ok, i'll read the posts carefully again though.
i give up thinking about what's koan....
i'm tired liao. -
i was wondering... Qian Bian Questions consider a kind of koan but not a buddhism koan lah..
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qian bian questions still have qian bian answers which are somehow kinda fixed though. not sure if that's koan but in buddhist terms, it's not about fixation or resting the mind on anything.Originally posted by Isis:i was wondering... Qian Bian Questions consider a kind of koan but not a buddhism koan lah..
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it seems that pondering what is a koan becomes a koan to u leh
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yalor...Originally posted by Isis:it seems that pondering what is a koan becomes a koan to u leh -
The koan is just a signpost to the moon, don't study the signpost, use the signpost to the moon.
~ AEN
I feel this is a very good "summary" on the explanations of koan. -
Nice article:
http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.citymaker.com/page/page/1523597.htm
(continued in next post)
...Not all Zen schools use koans, which are a form of ‘riddle’ sometimes used by the Masters to break the fixation of mind of their students. They are solved not by giving the right answer but by transcending the conceptual mind in the process of contemplation of the paradox the koan represents. As such they are really only useful chiefly for advanced practitioners, whose mind, and general character development, are "ripe" for a breakthrough to a true glimpse. This matter of maturity and ripeness, as well as the need for practise after satori, is so important and apparently so rarely found today that the the very legitimacy of such practise and dharma transmission itself have been called into question. D.T. Suzuki (1970-1966) considered his master, Soyen Shaku, to be the last of the great Zen Masters. Things seem to have deteriorated even further since he made that comment, although there have been exceptions. Part of this is unfortunately inevitable when a tradition or school becomes too insular and its masters and students are uninformed by an in-depth study of their own as well as discriminative study other philosophical teachings.
A classic koan is “what is the sound of one hand clapping?”, or "what was your original face before you were born?", or simply "Mu". Then one might be told to meditate on his koan for twenty hours a day until he ‘solves’ it. The beginning student (but still one tested and prepared by a preliminary course of discipline) traditionally came to the master (in what came to be known as the 'shouting and beating school", at any rate) with a clever answer and typically got a whack from his staff or a cuff on the ear. In some cases, the disciple may get a blow even before he speaks:
" Master Tokusan was a much more severe kind of Zen Master. Once a monk came to see him and, according to the Buddhist manner, made a bow to the Master before asking a question. However, before he had finished bowing, Tokusan gave him a blow of his stick. The monk did not know what it was all about, and said, "I have just bowed to you and have not asked you any question yet. Why have you struck me?" "It is no use to wait till you start talking," was the reply Tokusan gave him. In such a strict denial of words we are to see how earnestly Zen insists on the experience itself." (66)
The mere contemplation of the koan is an intense discipline and could go on for years. It is similar to Vedantic enquiry in its ability to concentrate the mind and also undermine one's dualistic thinking processes. Thus it is a complement to and even a form of meditation. Half-hearted or superficial mental efforts will not produce the desired result. Interestingly, the disciple often gets his worst beating when he is close to penetrating the "knot of self" represented by the koan. This is because the seriousness of the endeavor, its spiritual life and death nature, self-evident to the Master, is now becoming apparent to his feeling. This often manifests as the anguish and despair evoked by devotees like Bankei or even Ramakrishna in the maturing stages prior to insight or a fundamental breakthrough.
In the Zen tradition one hears of the state of the “great doubt” that "burns like a ball of red-hot fire that one can neither swallow nor spit out". One may wonder if at least part of the meaning behind the choice of this metaphor refers to the hard inner clenching or contraction around an imaginary center that is a subjective symptom of egoity strongly felt (ie., St. John: "The living flame of love makes the soul feel its hardness and aridity."). This “doubt” may also be considered as a thought or feeling-sense of the struggle with self as it begins to become clear that you yourself , as you are , are the problem, but the problem itself (the activity of contraction or false identification, which is egoity) is not entirely obvious as yet. The ordinary man in general has no such existential "doubt". He is comfortable with a self which he unconsciously identifies with the body. As practise increases, however, this natural conceit becomes undermined. Certainty and knowledge turn into doubt. One no longer knows who or what the "I" or the "world" are, yet reality itself has yet to dawn upon his consciousness. The man at this stage has been described as "an idiot", knowing nothing - and often in deep despair, of an extreme existential nature. The energy of the Great Doubt gradually is built up within his being to a critical degree. When fundamental insight finally arises to consciousness, as satori, often catalyzed by the perception of an external sight or sound, the inherent distress is released and the “doubt” vanishes. One then becomes one who has truly "entered the path". Prior to satori every ‘answer’ one comes up with for the koan is rejected, which, of course, is as it should be, for short of satori no one passes his interview with the master - assuming the master truly has fundamental insight. Without a life of discipline, purification, meditation (concentration/contemplation), and study, however, it is highly unlikely for the ‘great doubt’ to arise or for a koan to be of much use. Our unconscious tendencies or vasanas will keep us preoccupied with the world and the ego to such an extent that insight will have difficulty arising. Further, our life of "sleep" will not be interrupted sufficiently to allow the insight that does manage to arise to become stable realization. Suzuki gave an account of his first satori at age 26 using the koan "Mu" under Soyen Shaku. In it he reveals the difference between absorptive trance samadhi and prajna, or insight. -
"Up until then he had been conscious of 'Mu' [the koan] in his mind. But to be conscious of Mu is to be separate from it. Towards the end of that sesshin [Zen retreat], on about the fifth day, he ceased to be conscious of Mu - "I was one with Mu, identified with Mu, so that there was no longer the separateness implied by being conscious of Mu"....That was samadhi; but samadhi is not enough: "You must come out of that state, be awakened from it, and that awakening is Prajna. That moment of coming out of the samadhi and seeing it for what it is - that is satori." His first words as he was awakened from that state of deep samadhi by the sound of a small hand bell being struck were: "I see. This is it." [Extract from D.T. Suzuki. A Biography by A.Irwin Switzer. Published by The Buddhist Society, London. 1985.)
Once true and profound insight or self-knowledge is gained, however, although itself a highly significant development, one must go on to practise with that insight. This is partly because it is in the feeling nature and the will where the deepest contractions of ego reside, and they must be unraveled - at least sufficiently for the soul's purposes. There are also many warnings in the Zen tradition that there are grades of satori, and that one must press on until he has had a great Satori from which there is no backsliding, and which generally must be approved by a master. One may rightly wonder where masters with such profound insight are to be found today. Thus there is a need to choose teachers wisely, lest one end up wasting years and suffering unduly from the "broken yogi syndrome". We should take to heart the dying words of the Buddha: "be on your guard," and "work out your salvation with diligence."
Hakuin, perhaps the greatest of the Rinzai teachers, had his first experience of satori after meditating on the koan ‘Mu’ for four years:
“He shouted: ‘Why, the world is not something to be avoided, nor is Nirvana something to be sought after!’ This realization he presented to the Abbot and some fellow disciples but they did not give their unqualified assent to it. He however burned with absolute conviction, and thought to himself that surely for centuries no one had known such a joy as was his. He was then twenty-four. In his autobiographical writings, Hakuin warns Zen students with peculiar earnestness against this pride of assurance.” (67)
After this he endured three years of merciless hammering by the Master Shoju, who “utterly smashed his self-satisfaction.” He had another satori, which he classified as a ‘great satori’, and which his teacher confirmed by saying, “You are through.” Nevertheless, Shoju admonished him not to be content with such a small thing but to perform the ‘practise after satori.’ This is known as the “downward” practise, where one ‘descends from the mountaintop’ to become the Great Fool, highly revered in the Zen tradition. It was not until more than ten years later, and much meditation under extremely austere conditions, that Hakuin penetrated to the depths of the Lotus Sutra, and gained a most fundamental awakening:
“The meaning of the ordinary life of his teacher Shoju was revealed, and he saw that he had been mistaken over his great satori realizations. This time there was no great reaction in the body-mind instrument.” (6
Paul Brunton similarly writes:
“The glimpse, because it is situated between the mental conditions which exist before and afterwards, necessarily involves striking - even dramatic - contrast with their ordinariness. It seems to open onto the ultimate light-bathed height of human existence. But this experience necessarily provokes a human reaction to it, which is incorporated into the glimpse itself, becomes part of it. The permanent and truly ultimate enlightenment is pure, free from any admixture of reaction, since it is calm, balanced, and informed.” (69).... -
Regarding the 'Great Doubt',
In the Zen tradition one hears of the state of the “great doubt” that "burns like a ball of red-hot fire that one can neither swallow nor spit out". One may wonder if at least part of the meaning behind the choice of this metaphor refers to the hard inner clenching or contraction around an imaginary center that is a subjective symptom of egoity strongly felt (ie., St. John: "The living flame of love makes the soul feel its hardness and aridity."Wink. This “doubt” may also be considered as a thought or feeling-sense of the struggle with self as it begins to become clear that you yourself , as you are , are the problem, but the problem itself (the activity of contraction or false identification, which is egoity) is not entirely obvious as yet. The ordinary man in general has no such existential "doubt". He is comfortable with a self which he unconsciously identifies with the body. As practise increases, however, this natural conceit becomes undermined. Certainty and knowledge turn into doubt. One no longer knows who or what the "I" or the "world" are, yet reality itself has yet to dawn upon his consciousness. The man at this stage has been described as "an idiot", knowing nothing - and often in deep despair, of an extreme existential nature. The energy of the Great Doubt gradually is built up within his being to a critical degree. When fundamental insight finally arises to consciousness, as satori, often catalyzed by the perception of an external sight or sound, the inherent distress is released and the “doubt” vanishes. One then becomes one who has truly "entered the path". Prior to satori every ‘answer’ one comes up with for the koan is rejected, which, of course, is as it should be, for short of satori no one passes his interview with the master - assuming the master truly has fundamental insight. Without a life of discipline, purification, meditation (concentration/contemplation), and study, however, it is highly unlikely for the ‘great doubt’ to arise or for a koan to be of much use. Our unconscious tendencies or vasanas will keep us preoccupied with the world and the ego to such an extent that insight will have difficulty arising. Further, our life of "sleep" will not be interrupted sufficiently to allow the insight that does manage to arise to become stable realization.
Thusness just told me a few days ago:
(8:04 PM) Thusness: have u gone through the confusion?
(8:04 PM) Thusness: have u doubted ur own existence?
(8:04 PM) Thusness: have u faced that intense fear b4?
(8:05 PM) Thusness: otherwise how are u able to treasure isness?
(8:05 PM) Thusness: the spiritual journey is not an easy path
As my Master used to say.. small doubt, small realisation. Great doubt, great realisation.
p.s. I quoted that part for Thusness, he said that it's well said and true.