Emotions and Enlightenment
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Hi people, this is one of my replies to 'january' from the Atheism forum, I do appreciate any comments and I would also like to encourage Buddhists to discuss there as well.
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so where does buddhism wisdom leads us to now?
To ask about me is irrelevant here.. I am now 17 years old and I am still studying as a student. Anyway surprise is ok (I don't see any reason why a person, even someone enlightened cannot be surprised), fear, I still have fear at times (but generally I don't get feared easily perhaps that's my character), embarrassment.. well, over the years I am no longer as attached to ego, but I guess it still happens at times.. nervousness, sometimes it arises -- but when it arises I very quickly remain mindfulness, awareness, just watching the thoughts and physical sensatoins come and go, all these fear, nervousness and all those feelings just come and go and is allowed to be as they are -- I no longer identify with them but is just there as witnessing, participatory presence, like a mirror that neither rejects or pursues reflections, all appearances arises and passes instantaneously leaving no trace in the mirror, yet the mirror expresses the luminuos clarity of all appearances. The mirror (i.e our Buddha Nature) simply reflects all things as it is and is at one with all things it reflects.Originally posted by january:what is all the unlimited consconcious thing and what does finding them lead us to?
persoanlly, i achieve for myself high level of understanding and peacefulness about things without learning all the deep deep level of teachings of buddhism.
i also like to ask eternal .. do you still experience emotions nowadays.. like surprise, fear, embarrasment, nervousness? are you a buddhist in temple or do you work in modern society?
i still experience nervousness and embarrasment, fear but from psychology i can manage them still ok.
But I think it is irrelevant to ask me about this, because as I said, I am not yet enlightened therefore I cannot represent an enlightened person's character. One who enters deep into non-duality is constantly in a state of fearless samadhi, he experiences no self and no fear. (this is what those enlightened told me from their experience) It is difficult to imagine such a state, but once duality is completely seen through as illusion, the mind/body is completely dropped off (disidentified), there is no longer an 'inside' experiencing the 'outside world' -- one can no longer experience fear due to illusions of self. This does not mean they cannot run for their lives when they need to, but whatever their action is, their action only arises spontaneously out of Prajna, with no dualistic attachment involved. I am of course no where close to that yet. This is about the Deathless, one cannot reach the Deathless state through any means other than the dharma and attaining Insights/Enlightenment to the nature of reality.
It is possible through mundane wisdom, psychology, and shamatha to gain better control over one's emotions, have peacefulness, become a happier person, etc. However that is like treating 'surface problems' -- for example, a weed is growing on the ground, you use a stone to suppress it to stop it from growing. Or you trim it.. or.... (etc) You are developing skills to deal with emotions, and you know how to control them. But this is nevertheless still a limited skill, you can improve it but you'll never reach a point where you can use such wisdom to deal with all kinds of situations. And sometimes even if you put a stone on the grass, it will grow back or some other grasses will grow, because you never treat the problem at the root. You will still experience these negative emotions in many situations, when you lost something you are attached to deeply, or perhaps you know you got cancer and is dying in a few months, just an example. It will be difficult to manage then, because these skills are limited and depends relatively on how identified you are to those things (i.e your neighbour died you may still be ok, but if it happens to your family or yourself you'll be more affected). Anyway as my friend Thusness said, 'growing wisdom' and 'prajna wisdom' is different, though 'growing wisdom' is very important as well.
That is treating the problem on the surface -- the Root of the problem is not uprooted, the root of the problem is ignorance of reality. With this ignorance of reality there will constantly be Dukkha - even when you do not have negative emotions, there will always be subtle dualistic attraction, aversion, and delusions (often translated as 'greed', 'hatred', 'ignorance' but these are not very good translations and are limited to the emotional model, not non dual model) all the time. This is not just a matter of conscious control and management of emotions and mental wellbeing. It sometimes requires a lot of Mindfulness/Awareness practise and ultimately transcendental Insights into the nature of reality.
However, to even talk about emotions is not good enough, though it is true that many negative emotions have their main problem/root in Ignorance of Reality, due to dualistic seeking and aversion and delusion, they still cannot describe the true essence of Buddhism. If going by getting rid of 'greed, hatred, ignorance' and not 'fundamental dualistic attraction, fundamental dualistic aversion, and delusion of duality' as the fundamental thing in Buddhism, then anyone with certain levels of self control can be considered as highly enlightened, which is not the case. It is also possible for fundamental dualistic attraction, aversion and dukkha (suffering) to arise in us all the time without displaying major negative emotion outbreak, in fact to anyone unenlightened this is inevitable.
When Buddhism talks about fundamental attraction, aversion and delusion (a.k.a greed, hatred, ignorance) it is dealing with something much much more fundamental:Source: 31. Models of the Stages of Enlightenment, III -- The Emotional Models and The Theravada Four Path Model, which is a very good read and states the usual dogmas and ignorance that even some Buddhists fall prey to.. regarding shallow understanding of terms such as 'Greed, Hatred, Ignorance' rather than in terms of Reality and Non-Duality
Lastly, in Buddhism though we always talk about Liberation from Suffering, it is equally important to mention the effects of practising Buddhism in Positive terms -- the development of Clarity, Highest Everlasting Unconditioned Bliss and Rapture, Equanimity, Energy, Wisdom, Tranquility, Concentration, etc (also see Seven Factors of Enlightenment, info available on the net and on 'Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Dharma Dan)
Anyway I wanted to quote this regarding fundamental attraction and aversion:
...What they are attempting to say is that the sense of the observer, center point, continuous and separate subject, watcher or however you want to describe the sense that there is some Self at the center of all this stuff that so compelling seems to divided into Self and Other is, in fact, just a bunch of sensations, and when these begin to be seen as they are, the sense of how special the center point is begins to lose its grip on perception, which begins to become wider, more inclusive, and more even in its basic treatment of phenomena. Thus, as there doesnÂ’t seem to be so much of a this side and a that side, attempts to get away from that side when it is bad, get to that side when it is good, or just tune out to the whole thing when it is boring diminish at some basic perceptual level, and so the system functions better as it is better at realistically interpreting the information coming into it....
Please re-read 'The Four Noble Truths' to get a better idea of what exactly is fundamental attraction and aversion. -
When one is deeply in Emotional ,Wisdom is lower and lowered
Qing Sheng Zhi Ge
I also have emotional times ,but i will just read those Patriach in their persuit of enlightenment ,those tough times
and still bring on the courage to go deep in the Buddhadharma
Emotions is like a bottomless pit .If one doesnt control emotion well, one will be controlled by emotion
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I think the root of our emotions, is nothing but attachments. It's only when we are attached to certain views, certain items, we tend to be defensive and protect these views and "items" of ours. It's always "I", "Our" , "My","We" is equivalent to most important, precious. How about "they", "theirs", "them", "he/she" and so on? They too, who argued or caused emotions to us because of what we uphold, the I, Ours, My etc.Originally posted by syncopation_music:When one is deeply in Emotional ,Wisdom is lower and lowered
Qing Sheng Zhi Ge
I also have emotional times ,but i will just read those Patriach in their persuit of enlightenment ,those tough times
and still bring on the courage to go deep in the Buddhadharma
Emotions is like a bottomless pit .If one doesnt control emotion well, one will be controlled by emotion
It's a mind at work, to be happy or not happy, is depending on what your mind perceive things. A Rinpoche at my dharma centre recently shared with us, that happy and not happy have no difference, because the source is the same, the say we want to see things (ie. our mind). If we choose to see things negatively, we will be unhappy, if we choose to see things the positive way, we will be happy. -
17 years old? Simply amazing!
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Cease your emotions
No one will affect you -
Cease your life and nothing can affect you.Originally posted by maggot:Cease your emotions
No one will affect you
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Originally posted by maggot:Cease your emotions
No one will affect you
Unfortunately neither the above has anything to do with insights of non-duality (of subject-object, separate self and other) leading to the undoing of the 12 chains.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Cease your life and nothing can affect you.
'Cease your emotion' is a little vague. Certain times simply relinquishing emotion is enough, certain times not.
Nevertheless they still does not describe the Insight part of practise, the necessity to be aware of our moment to moment realities including our emotions, the nature of our emotions, and the nature of non dual.
When insight is developed to certain levels, all phenomena including our emotions are seen to be self-liberating. -
How about you start first? I promise I will be at your funeralOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Cease your life and nothing can affect you. -
Cycle just posted some quotes from Bhante Gunaratana (his 'Mindfulness in Plain English' is a Must Read) in the 'Daily Buddhist Verses' topic today which I think is very good:Originally posted by cycle:A large portion ( of meditators) wants to meditate for "relaxation" - they want a quick and cheap fix to cope with their daily lives. There are many psyhiatrists and psychologists who use meditaton for such purposes - as a method of relieving anxieties and tensions. Today, the word "meditation" has been misused and abused. It is now been misunderstood. There was one occasion when someone wanted to practice vipassana (insight meditation) but do not wish to have anything to do with mindfulness! How can this be?
~ Ven. Bhante Henepola Gunaratana
So January's view 'persoanlly, i achieve for myself high level of understanding and peacefulness about things without learning all the deep deep level of teachings of buddhism.' is therefore, obviously false. One cannot hope to realise any liberation without Dharma, without knowing the nature of Reality, without practising Insight.Originally posted by cycle:Question: Were there instances where meditators say, "Well, look here - I want to learn meditation only and don't want to listen to what the Buddha says."?
Ven. Gunaratana : Sure, in fact some have requested only for vipassana and to exclude the Dhamma. Here, there is some misunderstanding of what vipassana is. You cannot study vipassana without dealing with the core teachings of the Buddha. Therefore, we don't use labels and words. We just explain the truth and soon they will realise the interconnectedness of all aspects of meditation. To those who are really fanatic and rigid - they will eventually drop out. But if they want to persist, then we teach simple type of meditation and tell them that their meditation will not be successful and meaningful. You cannot divorce meditation from the Dhamma and there are many serious meditators who know this.
In conversation with Ven. Gunaratana, For You vol 215 03/2007
Most forms of meditation (i.e yoga, qi gong, etc) are only Shamatha meditation, and will not be able to produce any insights and awakening. They help one to focus and produce calmness, helps one's psychological wellbeing, but does not lead to liberation and end of sufferings.
p.s. One doesn't have to learn very deep teachings of the dharma, but one has to practise Insight, and this is the crucial thing. With insight, everything - even 'deep dharmas' are known through one's own experience. Deep academic studies will not help. -
I have little experience and little knowledge, but basics of dharma I still knowOriginally posted by *=Optimus=*:17 years old? Simply amazing! 
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Hey AEN, that means you are going to enlist in NS next year?
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I'm studying in poly, so two years laterOriginally posted by Beyond Religion:Hey AEN, that means you are going to enlist in NS next year?
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Just my 2 cts...
In a conventional sense, emotions cannot be stopped. Just like all the other sensations that one feels.
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not find
As a side point, actually, Dzogchen is a very profound teaching. It is impossible to understand the practice before the realisation of non-duality and subsequently spontaneous manifestation. I just felt that some people if they get too attracted to Dzogchen without proper understanding and realisations will only mislead themselves. Dzogchen can only be understood and practice correctly after passing through the initial experience of non-duality. Before that, it may lead to further re-enforcement of 'karmic doing'.
Just my opinion. -
Yes! Well said!Originally posted by longchen:Just my 2 cts...
In a conventional sense, emotions cannot be stopped. Just like all the other sensations that one feels.
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not find
As a side point, actually, Dzogchen is a very profound teaching. It is impossible to understand the practice before the realisation of non-duality and subsequently spontaneous manifestation. I just felt that some people if they get too attracted to Dzogchen without proper understanding and realisations will only mislead themselves. Dzogchen can only be understood and practice correctly after passing through the initial experience of non-duality. Before that, it may lead to further re-enforcement of 'karmic doing'.
Just my opinion.
Any movement or reaction to anything -- even emotions, whether to cease or react with the emotions is already falling into the trap of 'dualistic fundamental aversion' and 'dualistic fundamental attraction'. Therefore it is dangerous to say that Buddhism is about 'getting rid of emotions' (the effort to forcefully get rid of emotion, which is behavior modification, is merely just more 'doings' and 'action'), but rather, a true practitioner merely experiences/sees Emotions AS IT IS.
Rather than seeking to cease emotions, creating even more reactions and dualistic aversion, we should simply accept the emotions as it is, being 'participatory presence', just being mindful/aware, yet not getting involved/attached in them.
Yet this still isn't quite right... for ultimately in terms of non-duality, there is no surrender and acceptance. In reality, there only is moment to moment Spontaneous Manifestation. There is just one whole happening. This requires insight to 'see'.
I fully agree that Dzogchen is profound and subtle. Dzogchen is definitely beyond reach of anyone who has not had a true realisation of our nature. As a matter of fact, realising Self-Liberation* is only for those whose level of non dual insights has reached its peak, according to Thusness.
*Note for readers: Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place in three main ways). (Source: http://eliascapriles.dzogchen.ru/self-liberation.pdf) -
Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm
...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention, without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the presence of the pure awareness.
It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison thought or to block its flow. It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention, without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly, and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction, if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear... -
You cease your current life then soon you will have another life, still need to suffer.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Cease your life and nothing can affect you. -
All in good time. Suicide is illegal in Singapore.Originally posted by maggot:How about you start first? I promise I will be at your funeral -
Can you confirm beyond all reasonable doubt that I will have another life?Originally posted by justdoit77:You cease your current life then soon you will have another life, still need to suffer. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Thusness thinks this is very good.. it is about self liberation.
Here is some great advise from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://www.dharmamind.net/TM1.htm
[b]...Even if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in this state for more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it. Without wishing for the state to continue for a long time and without fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary is to maintain pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of there being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. [n]If the mind, even though one maintains simple presence, does not remain in this calm state, but always tends to follow waves of thoughts about the past or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the senses such as sight, hearing, etc. , then one should try to understand that the wave of thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to catch the wind, one does not succeed; similarly if one tries to block the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this reason one should not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming the ordinary state of mind. Therefore the essential principle is to acknowledge with bare attention, without letting oneself become distracted, whatever thought arises, be it good or bad, important or less important, and to continue to maintain presence in the state of the moving wave of thought itself. When a thought arises and one does not succeed in remaining calm with this presence, since other such thoughts may follow, it is necessary to be skilful in acknowledging it with non-distraction. 'Acknowledging' does not mean seeing it with one's eyes, or forming a concept about it. Rather it means giving bare attention, without distraction to whatever thought of the 'three times', or whatever perception of the senses may arise, and thus being fully conscious of this 'wave' while continuing in the presence of the pure awareness.
It absolutely does not mean modifying the mind in some way, such as by trying to imprison thought or to block its flow. It is difficult for this acknowledgment with bare attention, without distraction, to last for a long time for someone who is beginning this practice, as a result of strong mental habits of distraction acquired through transmigration in the course of unlimited time. If we only take into consideration this present lifetime, from the moment of our birth right up until the present we have done nothing other than live distractedly, and there has never been an opportunity to train in the presence of awareness and non-distraction. For this reason, until we become no longer capable of entering into distraction, if, through lack of attention, we find ourselves becoming dominated by neglectfulness and forgetfulness, we must try by every means to become aware of what is happening through relying on the presence of mind. There is no 'meditation' that you can find beyond this continuing in one's own true condition with the presence of the calm state, or with the moving wave of thought. Beyond recognition with bare attention and continuing in one's own State, there is nothing to seek that is either very good or very dear...[/b]
Here's more..
...."Therefore, maintaining the presence of one's own State and observing the wave of thought, without judging whether this presence is more or less clear, and without thinking of the calm state and the wave of thought in terms of the acceptance of the one and the rejection of the other, absolutely not conditioned by wanting to change anything whatsoever, one continues without becoming distracted, and without forgetting to keep oneÂ’s awareness present; governing oneself in this way one gathers the essence of the practice."....
...In general, in Dzogchen, the Teaching of spontaneous self-perfection, one speaks of the self-liberation of the way of seeing, of the way of meditating, of the way of behaving, and of the fruit, but this self-liberation must arise through the presence of awareness. In particular, the self-liberation of the way of behaving absolutely cannot arise if it is not based on the presence of awareness. So, if one does not succeed in making the self-liberation of one's way of behaving precise, one cannot overcome the distinction between sessions of sitting meditation and one's daily life. When we speak of the self-liberation of one's way of behaving as the fundamental principle of all the tantra, the agama, and the upadesa of Dzogchen, this pleases the young people of today a great deal. But some of them do not know that the real basis of self-liberation is the presence of awareness, and many of them, even if they understand this a little in theory, and know how to speak of it, nevertheless, just the same have the defect of not applying it. If a sick person knows perfectly well the properties and functions of a medicine and is also expert in giving explanations about it, but doesn't ever take the medicine, he or she can never get well. In the same way, throughout limitless time we have been suffering from the serious illness of being subject to the dualistic condition, and the only remedy for this illness is real knowledge of the state of self-liberation without falling into limitations.... -
In my opinion, most of what longchen posted about non-duality are all of very good qualities.
This is most profound! Not only there is no “I” apart from the arising and ceasing, there is “no mine” in all manifestations. The entire view of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ is a distorted view from start.
When you are in pain, can you say...'I want to stop the pain' and the pain immediately will go away... No one owns the pain therefore it cannot be stopped by 'a self'.
An 'I' observing phenomenon happening is 'learnt'. We are molded by our existing mode of perception to 'see' in terms of subject-object division. So much so that even though reality in truth is undivided, we are unable to experience that "there is mere happening, there is no I nor mine".
Cool! There is no stopping. When condition is, manifestation is. Any attempt to stop is doing, is self. The ‘sadness’ is just a mirror that serves as a gender reminder of the latent deep; a subtle identification. Nothing needs to be done other than allowing our own pristine-emptiness nature to manifest spontaneously and unreservedly. Whether there is ‘sadness’ or "peace", still unreserved spontaneity of our luminous nature. Therefore there is no movement and that alone dissolves all.
Likewise, any form of trying to stop emotions such as sadness is really modification to the behaviour. But doing that, there is re-enforcement of self.
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Spontaneous manifestation is the realisation that any (wish for) modification to behaviour is 'doing of the self'. There is no true rest in trying to modify anything. Seek and you shall not find
Lastly, cycle after cycles of furnace until the understanding of self-liberation reaches permanent lucidity. Nothing needs be done, just a quantum leap in insight. -
Great post, Thusness
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Truly enlightening. Good stuff!Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that both ocean and wave are one and the same. -
Oh when there's nothing...nothing arise
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Is nothing something?Originally posted by maggot:Oh when there's nothing...nothing arise -
There's nothing so how can it be something?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Is nothing something?