Emotions and Enlightenment
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You are verbally asking something which cannot be explained by words, what do you expect?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Is nothing something?
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I was answering maggot's question.Originally posted by justdoit77:You are verbally asking something which cannot be explained by words, what do you expect? -
I wrote,
One who enters deep into non-duality is constantly in a state of fearless samadhi, he experiences no self and no fear. (this is what those enlightened told me from their experience)
I just found an instance in the Suttas which described a lay person attaining Arhatship and overcomed all fears.
The Dhammapada Verse 397
XXVI (14) The Story of Uggasena, the son of a Rich Man.
While residing at the Jetavana Monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (397) of the Dhammapada, with reference to Uggasena, the son of a Rich Man.
After marrying a dancer from a theatrical troupe, Uggasena was trained by his father-in-law who was an acrobat, and became very skillful in accrobatics. One day while he was demonstrating his skill, the Buddha came on the scene. After hearing the Buddha's teaching Uggasena attained Arahatship while he was still performing his feats on top of a long bamboo pole. After that, he climbed down from the pole and pleaded with the Buddha to accept him as a bhikkhu and was accordingly admitted into the order.
One day, when other Bhikkhus asked him whether he did not have any feeling of fear while climbing down from such a great height (i.e. about 90 feet), he answered in the negative. The Bhikkhus took that to mean that Uggasena was claiming to have attained Arahatship even then. So, they went to the Buddha and said, "Vernerable Sir ! Uggasena claims himself to be an Arahat; he must be telling lies." To them the Buddha replied. " Bhikkhus, one who has cut off all fetters like my son Uggasena, has no fear."
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows;
Verse 397 : Him I call a Brahmana, who has cut off all fetters and is fearless, who is beyond attainment and is free from moral defilement. -
Was just reminded... the 3 qualities of self-liberation:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I wrote,
I just found an instance in the Suttas which described a lay person attaining Arhatship and overcomed all fears.
The Dhammapada Verse 397
XXVI (14) The Story of Uggasena, the son of a Rich Man.
While residing at the Jetavana Monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (397) of the Dhammapada, with reference to Uggasena, the son of a Rich Man.
After marrying a dancer from a theatrical troupe, Uggasena was trained by his father-in-law who was an acrobat, and became very skillful in accrobatics. One day while he was demonstrating his skill, the Buddha came on the scene. After hearing the Buddha's teaching Uggasena attained Arahatship while he was still performing his feats on top of a long bamboo pole. After that, he climbed down from the pole and pleaded with the Buddha to accept him as a bhikkhu and was accordingly admitted into the order.
One day, when other Bhikkhus asked him whether he did not have any feeling of fear while climbing down from such a great height (i.e. about 90 feet), he answered in the negative. The Bhikkhus took that to mean that Uggasena was claiming to have attained Arahatship even then. So, they went to the Buddha and said, "Vernerable Sir ! Uggasena claims himself to be an Arahat; he must be telling lies." To them the Buddha replied. " Bhikkhus, one who has cut off all fetters like my son Uggasena, has no fear."
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows;
Verse 397 : Him I call a Brahmana, who has cut off all fetters and is fearless, who is beyond attainment and is free from moral defilement.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=242880
....
p.s had an interesting discussion on the latest article with Thusness just now.. he does like the article very much and elaborated many points hidden (not really hidden lah, but i'm not wise enough to notice its significance
) in the article including the qualities of self liberation (i.e fearlessness, non-attachment, non-duality) to me which I failed to see.. -
This is a quote of Adyashanti, I hope you all find it useful.
What Freedom Really Is
But this myth that I can rest in some assuredness that I will never again feel insecure, or feel fear, or feel doubt or feel those emotions we don't want to feel.... If I'm truly enlightened that I will never again feel these emotions. Forget it, that's not it. That's the pipe dream, that is the opiate that is sold to the masses, and they eat it up and they never get there and they end up disillusioned. That's not how it works.
Freedom is never freedom from, if freedom is freedom from anything it's not freedom at all.
It's freedom to.
Are you free enough to be afraid, are you free enough to feel insecure. Are you free enough not to know. Are you free enough to know that you can't know. Are you free enough to be comfortable knowing that you can't know what's around the next corner, how you will feel about it, how you will respond to it, that you literally can't know. Are you free enough to be totally at ease and in comfort with the way things actually are.
That's freedom.
The other thing is the ego's idea of freedom. -
I will never again feel insecure, or feel fear, or feel doubt or feel those emotions we don't want to feel
I agree that thereÂ’s something very wrong with the emotional models of enlightenment and the dogmas that most people have regarding enlightenment and emotions. (I was feeling a little frustrated recently conversing with a few people recently, who had very thick dogmas about what enlightenment is supposed to be)
To correct this situation the 'non-duality model' of enlightenment must be introduced to get rid of people's misconceptions. (that means, enlightenment is merely a quantum leap of perception into the nature of non-duality, and is not about behaviour modifications)
However that said, we must also know... as Thusness said, 'non-duality, fearlessness and non-attachment' are the three qualities essential to self liberation.
If there are not these three qualities, then the karmic propensities are still reacting strongly and one cannot be able to see self-liberation. There is no true freedom, you are under total control of the momentum only. There is no seeing and no liberation.Thusness says:
But again, even self-liberation is a matter of insights, it is not through effortfully modifying one's behavior to get rid of 'bad emotions'. Like the following quote says, Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place in three main ways). (Source: http://eliascapriles.dzogchen.ru/self-liberation.pdf)
u said momentum is at work?
Thusness says:
how is one to realise it?
Thusness says:
Asking “who am I”, pre-assumes that there is a ‘who’.
Thusness says:
Or are we free from the 'who'?
Thusness says:
Does asking 'who am I' that eventually lead to the experience of "I AM" because it assumes a who from start?
Thusness says:
what is the nature of non-duality? -
BTW just something that Thusness told me, there are different levels of spontaneous arising. Self-liberation is the deeper insight of it, so not to confuse it with an initial realisation of spontaneity. This is posted to correct any misconcepts and confusion over whether 'spontaneous arising' and 'self-liberation' are the same thing (self-liberation is also about spontaneous arising but a deeper level of realisations).
But what I said regarding the momentum thing and not to mistake it as spontaneous arising and self-liberation is correct. -
I posted this in: The Spell of Karmic PropensitiesOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Initially I thought Thusness told me to post our whole chat log on this in the forum which I did, then it turns out that what he meant was he wanted me to SUMMARISE it to see my understanding based on the chat log
So my summary goes...
Karmic Propensities is what blinded us from seeing the ultimate reality. Our entire mind is affected by karmic propensities such that our entire system of enquiry, even when we want to inquire on reality, we cannot know beyond "Who", "When", "What", "Where". Our mind is always thinking dualistically, in terms of subject and object (an I and a Not-I, which cannot be found in reality). It is a momentum that cannot be located, yet it can be directly felt and experienced, and the momentum arises every moment and affect the entire way we see things. When we are affected by momentum the mind cannot know the ultimate reality (Emptiness).
Because our momentum is at work, we will always assume a subject-object duality. That is, there is a Self, an Agent, and observer, doer, thinker of think. A self that persists in time in a connected way... experiencing things... It blinds us into seeing self and objective world as 'entities', as 'things' with inherent existence, as a separate and permanent 'me'.
So when momentum is in action, we cannot help but react with our karmic patterns. If we were to ask, "If you lost your shoe, are you still you?" or "If u lost ur hands, do u still exist?". It almost seems certain to say "Yes, of course I am still I." because we always assumed there is a truly existing "Self" experiencing changes. This momentum can continue even after experiences of transcendental Presence, and distorting the experience. Dharma Dan calls this the "fundamental knot of perception".
Because it is our habit energy that made us think that way, we are so used to thinking in terms of subject object duality that it has become so deeply part of us, deeply imprinted into our consciousness.
If we were to eliminate this bond, then we can begin to realise, there is no "Self". In reality, there is only Self1, Self2, Self3, moment to moment our mental and karmic factors arise spontaneously but not in a connected way. We are not a permanent self, we are momentary self and nothing stays, everything is ever flowing.
Without seeing things of 'entities', we can begin to realise the nature of Denpendent Co-Arising, Conditionality, Interdependence, etc, i.e Emptiness. The nature is always so, but our karmic propensities obscure us from seeing the truth, distorting the way we see things, enquire things, and perceive things. It is this bond that bonds us life after life in Samsara.
Forgot to mention... to eliminate the bond we have to feel it, feel the power of the bond, experience it. To eliminate the bond is a matter of insights, the insight into our true nature, the insight into self-liberation, etc. -
Hi AEN,
You are such a prolific poster, so many ideas...
What would you be without all these thoughts and ideas?
I'm quite serious, if you want liberation, it will cost you everything you know.
Are you willing to pay the price?
Having said that though, I have to admit there's no such thing as enlightenment.
There is only the seeking of enlightenment.
When the seeking falls away then you are left with the beautiful simplicity of just "this".
As Ramana Maharshi would say, "you have to do whatever you can to get rid of the notion that you are not realized".
Because believing you are not realized is just that, just a "belief".
It's amazing how we cause our own suffering by believing the thoughts that arise.
AEN, can you just be still and just watch as all these thoughts arise, without necessarily identifying with them? -
How do you know he isntOriginally posted by JonLS:Hi AEN,
You are such a prolific poster, so many ideas...
What would you be without all these thoughts and ideas?
I'm quite serious, if you want liberation, it will cost you everything you know.
Are you willing to pay the price?
Having said that though, I have to admit there's no such thing as enlightenment.
There is only the seeking of enlightenment.
When the seeking falls away then you are left with the beautiful simplicity of just "this".
As Ramana Maharshi would say, "you have to do whatever you can to get rid of the notion that you are not realized".
Because believing you are not realized is just that, just a "belief".
It's amazing how we cause our own suffering by believing the thoughts that arise.
AEN, can you just be still and just watch as all these thoughts arise, without necessarily identifying with them? -
Because he keeps insisting he's not enlightened.Originally posted by Omniknight:How do you know he isnt -
I am not easily offended. But if you offend me once, you offend me for life.
This could be a new definition for ego. -
I think the idea 'I am not enlightened' is just as 'bad' as saying 'I am a man', or 'I am AEN', or 'I am a student'.Originally posted by JonLS:Because he keeps insisting he's not enlightened.
Ultimately speaking such notions are illusory and therefore must not be identified, but when I am conversing sometimes there arise a need to clarify things... such as 'I am ....' -
I don't know what you are saying here.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think the idea 'I am not enlightened' is just as 'bad' as saying 'I am a man', or 'I am AEN', or 'I am a student'.
Ultimately speaking such notions are illusory and therefore must not be identified, but when I am conversing sometimes there arise a need to clarify things... such as 'I am ....'
Either the notion that "I am not realized" has dropped away along with all other thoughts or it has not.
Which one is it?
Are you still identifying with thoughts or not? -
Don't think so. But I still type about itOriginally posted by JonLS:I don't know what you are saying here.
Either the notion that "I am not realized" has dropped away along with all other thoughts or it has not.
Which one is it?
Are you still identifying with thoughts or not?