Buddhism VS Harsh Reality
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It will, it is cause and effect, it is a natural law.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Simply said, karma doesn't always affect present or future lives.
When conditions are right, karma results in effect. -
Then you have to practise and see yourself. Everything the Buddha taught, he said, you can realise it for yourself. Means through practise, we will realise what the Buddha realise. Or like they said, 'come and see', 'ehipassiko'.Originally posted by mahawarrior:this seems to be getting a bit off-topic, but how are you sure that karma/cause and effect exist?
it's like saying God exist whether or not you believe in him, but...how do you know he exist/does not exist?
it's the same with karma...
Karma is happening all the time, this volition, it is subtle and yet happening all the time, surfacing all the time, affecting us all the time. And consciousness is always creating new karma, all the time when there is volitional action. This must be the realisation through practise. And this is leading to the third dharma seal. I have been posting about the topic of karma lately in recent posts of mine.
However it is not helpful, and almost impossible, for ordinary people like us to go into the specifics of speculating cause and effect. That's not the point and cannot be done other than by the very wise like Buddha himself, or some great practitioner. Which is why the exact Karmic cause and effect, as Buddha said, is one of the 4 imponderables that if you become obsessed with thinking, can lead to insanity. -
it means his parents will have double the work to do for the rest of their livesOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Let's say someone is mentally retarded. Doesn't mean he has a very sad life, retarded people can be happy too. And just being retarded doesn't mean you have the right to kill him, nor would he want to die. -
Yes, and that still doesn't give you the right to kill him.Originally posted by Omniknight:it means his parents will have double the work to do for the rest of their lives
So I said in such cases much more patience and love is needed. It is a kind of dharma training too. -
Idiot.Originally posted by bohiruci:abortion is kiling unborn life
I dont accept abortion as the way to keep unwanted births
Karmic will cause the death of another sentient beings who will haunt the mother and the family in times to come
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Hello, if you weren't aware of our forum postings, we do not allow personal insults in this forum, otherwise the post will be removed.Originally posted by Xephone_xenon:Idiot.
Since this is your first time in my forum I presume you didn't know the rules and I shall let it be.
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AEN,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, and that still doesn't give you the right to kill him.
So I said in such cases much more patience and love is needed. It is a kind of dharma training too.
I think at 17 you really haven't seen much of the world yet besides reading off the stats and theories.
There are many reasons why a couple would want to choose abortion, whether you agree or not, ultimately it's their individual choices. Buddhists with right knowledge should stop stooping low in using bad kamma, some kinda invisible forces, those fear factors in coaxing people out of the abortion.
If the foetues would really be deformed and difficult to raise, then it really will cause much distress to the couple. So it's up to the couple whether or not they want to bear the responsible. Unless AEN would volunteer to help raise the kid in terms of effort and monetary means.
If kamma is really something that can't be changed or escaped, then Angunimala shouldn't be able to become an Arahant. He had killed 999 people and should have be done so, same goes to Milarepa. In fact, as buddhists, if we were to know couples had aborted, we should also lend them a listening ear and to picture out the pros and cons and advise them to be careful in the future.
By saying this, I'm not say I'm for or against abortion, it's totally up to the couples' choices. But I'm kinda sick and tired to see all these seems to be morally self-righteous people trying to dictate others what to do in this forum.
AEN, at your age, I will advice you to do some long-term volunteering with some societies that deal with people with special needs. There you will appreciate the great love of the mankind that some parents have for these children; and even realise why some parents don't want to take the risk.
Period -
Originally posted by mahawarrior:
by examinating, learning and investigating etcs.
this seems to be getting a bit off-topic, but how are you sure that karma/cause and effect exist?
...
similarily also, how are we sure that gravity exist?
if we are not taught in school, we wouldn't know or bother to investigate due to our daily life, savvy?
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Honestly, the more I faced with the harsh reality in life, the more I am impress by the wisdom of the Buddhism.
But the teachings are very relevant to our every life in work, and blends well with the logic of science (example the cause and effect).
I am not a scholar in Buddhism, but I am very much convinced that truth and facts must blend and in support of each other (infact they are one), and so far Buddhist teachings show this very well.
Actually Buddhism is just a word label. I like the the way how a good buddhist view things in life, example inclusion, wholeness and oneness. By seeing the world at a more complete angle, we may just see a different world. -
I think all these discussions all point to the imperfect and unsatisfactory state of existence we find ourselves in. All of us wanted to live a life where we can avoid harming others, but ultimately at some juncture we are forced to compromise our principles.Originally posted by yamizi:AEN,
I think at 17 you really haven't seen much of the world yet besides reading off the stats and theories.
There are many reasons why a couple would want to choose abortion, whether you agree or not, ultimately it's their individual choices. Buddhists with right knowledge should stop stooping low in using bad kamma, some kinda invisible forces, those fear factors in coaxing people out of the abortion.
If the foetues would really be deformed and difficult to raise, then it really will cause much distress to the couple. So it's up to the couple whether or not they want to bear the responsible. Unless AEN would volunteer to help raise the kid in terms of effort and monetary means.
If kamma is really something that can't be changed or escaped, then Angunimala shouldn't be able to become an Arahant. He had killed 999 people and should have be done so, same goes to Milarepa. In fact, as buddhists, if we were to know couples had aborted, we should also lend them a listening ear and to picture out the pros and cons and advise them to be careful in the future.
By saying this, I'm not say I'm for or against abortion, it's totally up to the couples' choices. But I'm kinda sick and tired to see all these seems to be morally self-righteous people trying to dictate others what to do in this forum.
AEN, at your age, I will advice you to do some long-term volunteering with some societies that deal with people with special needs. There you will appreciate the great love of the mankind that some parents have for these children; and even realise why some parents don't want to take the risk.
Period
I am not making a stand to comment on whether abortion in this case is warranted or not... I am just saying that instead of fretting ourselves to death over the myraid of circumstances where our moral principles can be contradicted, we should focus to cultivate oursleves in order to end this unsatisfactory state of existence. -
** it is actually 3% upon further research.Originally posted by yamizi:
AEN,
I think at 17 you really haven't seen much of the world yet besides reading off the stats and theories.
There are many reasons why a couple would want to choose abortion, whether you agree or not, ultimately it's their individual choices. Buddhists with right knowledge should stop stooping low in using bad kamma, some kinda invisible forces, those fear factors in coaxing people out of the abortion.[/quote]
I think you did not take into considerations that many many people out there got pregnant and just didn't want to take the responsibility of raising a child. It is too troublesome for them, they are afraid that their life will be affected, they are afraid of hardship. Little health problems are taken as excuses. And even if the baby did have certain deformation, doesn't mean he can't lead a happy life, as I said before. Even a retarded person can be very happy throughout his life... so does that mean if a person is retarded that gives you the right to kill him? I don't think just because of these, a parent must give up on his children or kill him. Instead, more care, patience, and love is usually what is needed.
And, the next thing is, karma is a natural law. It is not a fear factor. It is just as it is, it is just cause and effect. Is our Singapore Law just a fear factor? Well perhaps partially true, but that's a man-made law. Karma is not. It is just cause and effect. Most people weren't aware of karma, and even if they weren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them. Therefore it is best to make them aware.If the foetues would really be deformed and difficult to raise, then it really will cause much distress to the couple. So it's up to the couple whether or not they want to bear the responsible. Unless AEN would volunteer to help raise the kid in terms of effort and monetary means.
See: Buddhism's Stance on Abortion
If kamma is really something that can't be changed or escaped, then Angunimala shouldn't be able to become an Arahant. He had killed 999 people and should have be done so, same goes to Milarepa. In fact, as buddhists, if we were to know couples had aborted, we should also lend them a listening ear and to picture out the pros and cons and advise them to be careful in the future.
By saying this, I'm not say I'm for or against abortion, it's totally up to the couples' choices. But I'm kinda sick and tired to see all these seems to be morally self-righteous people trying to dictate others what to do in this forum.
AEN, at your age, I will advice you to do some long-term volunteering with some societies that deal with people with special needs. There you will appreciate the great love of the mankind that some parents have for these children; and even realise why some parents don't want to take the risk.
Period[/b]
[quote]Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I have never suggested that abortion should never be done under all circumstances, but I pointed earlier on that abortions done out of so called "unavoidable circumstances" such as danger to maternal or fetal health makes up only 5 to 10%** of all abortions, while most of the abortions could be avoided. I also made a point that 25% of fetuses in Singapore are aborted, and it wouldn't make sense that much of the numbers are aborted due to health reasons but usually they are aborted due to unwillingness and other avoidable reasons.
In any case I also have to make a point that even if abortion is done under circumstances such as health reasons, we cannot just say there will not be karmic effects.. as Yamizi is said, karma isn't just a system to judge a person. The act of killing the baby, causing tremendous pain, taking away life, itself has karma even though it might be done under various circumstances. The same goes for euthanasia, even if choices are made due to that circumstance it doesn't mean no karma will be created. So even though the karmic effects may not be the same as, say abortion done out of unwillingness to bear a child, we should bear in mind that all abortions will result in some form of karma, and therefore, we should under such circumstances try to lighten our karma and his karma and dedicate merits to the child. -
Small boy,Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think you did not take into considerations that many many people out there got pregnant and just didn't want to take the responsibility of raising a child. It is too troublesome for them, they are afraid that their life will be affected, they are afraid of hardship. Little health problems are taken as excuses. And even if the baby did have certain deformation, doesn't mean he can't lead a happy life, as I said before. Even a retarded person can be very happy throughout his life... so does that mean if a person is retarded that gives you the right to kill him? I don't think just because of these, a parent must give up on his children or kill him. Instead, more care, patience, and love is usually what is needed.
And, the next thing is, karma is a natural law. It is not a fear factor. It is just as it is, it is just cause and effect. Is our Singapore Law just a fear factor? Well perhaps partially true, but that's a man-made law. Karma is not. It is just cause and effect. Most people weren't aware of karma, and even if they weren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them. Therefore it is best to make them aware.
Firstly, Kamma is not merely cause and effect, it's cause condition and effect, don't leave out that factor. It makes a lot of difference. If Kamma is simply a tit for a tat then how can Angunimala and Miralepa be enlightened? Think through again or better go back to attend some basic buddhism course.
Once again, it will be up to the couples' decision in whether to abort or not for whatever reasons.
You see a retard boy happy that's because the family has the strength and will to go through but not all of them can. But in the bottom of everyone's heart, who would not wish that one's child is normal? You dare to take the vow to have all your babies to be borned deformed and willing to take care of them for the rest of your lives? Of course this is about deformity.
To those couples who are simply not wanting to take responsibility due to that moment of lust, that's another issue.
Afterall we are bystanders, if the couples are not willing to take then ARE YOU willing to take care?
So instead sounding self-righteous here, please expose yourself to these people with special needs. Try to volunteer 2 times a week for say 5 years. Get a feel of yourself. Give some practical love then sitting on a self-made pedestral seat in a surreal forum deciding who has or hasn't have any right to take life or not.
It's easy for one to preach love, dhamma, etc during peace times. When the real challenges come, it depends again.
WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DO SO YOURSELF? -
haha... i made this forum and pushed it to himOriginally posted by yamizi:Give some practical love then sitting on a self-made pedestral seat in a surreal forum deciding who has or hasn't have any right to take life or not. -
Wah, yamizi getting to show his righteous anger like bu dong ming wang.Originally posted by yamizi:Small boy,
Firstly, Kamma is not merely cause and effect, it's cause condition and effect, don't leave out that factor. It makes a lot of difference. If Kamma is simply a tit for a tat then how can Angunimala and Miralepa be enlightened? Think through again or better go back to attend some basic buddhism course.
Once again, it will be up to the couples' decision in whether to abort or not for whatever reasons.
You see a retard boy happy that's because the family has the strength and will to go through but not all of them can. But in the bottom of everyone's heart, who would not wish that one's child is normal? You dare to take the vow to have all your babies to be borned deformed and willing to take care of them for the rest of your lives? Of course this is about deformity.
To those couples who are simply not wanting to take responsibility due to that moment of lust, that's another issue.
Afterall we are bystanders, if the couples are not willing to take then ARE YOU willing to take care?
So instead sounding self-righteous here, please expose yourself to these people with special needs. Try to volunteer 2 times a week for say 5 years. Get a feel of yourself. Give some practical love then sitting on a self-made pedestral seat in a surreal forum deciding who has or hasn't have any right to take life or not.
It's easy for one to preach love, dhamma, etc during peace times. When the real challenges come, it depends again.
WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DO SO YOURSELF?
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HZ and Omni,Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Wah, yamizi getting to show his righteous anger like bu dong ming wang.
I hope you guys know what I was driving at =) -
Originally posted by yamizi:
Of course I know karma is not fatalism, but that doesn't mean you can do evil deeds on the basis that you can become Angulimala. BTW, even Angulimala had to suffer some bad karmic consequences EVEN if he had attain arhatship -- like having to suffer being despised by everyone and not receiving alms. And also, getting serious injuries throughout the body, completely bleeding, by the bandits. Buddha had to suffer headaches, dysentry, at his last days.
[b]
Small boy,
Firstly, Kamma is not merely cause and effect, it's cause condition and effect, don't leave out that factor. It makes a lot of difference. If Kamma is simply a tit for a tat then how can Angunimala and Miralepa be enlightened? Think through again or better go back to attend some basic buddhism course.
About Angulimala (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.086.than.html): ...Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" 3...
Secondly, it is only someone enlightened like Angulimala or Milarepa that can clear that amount of karma. It is only one who has at least attained Arhatship that can 'zhong bao qing shou', that means karmic effect does not bear as much fruition as it would have been. We can also lighten our karma but it is very limited unless we become enlightened. The karma of killing is not light at all, you know. If not for having practised and attained enlightenment, Angulimala would have to suffer many thousands of years in hell. So the question is, are you so confident you'll become enlightened very quickly and be a very great practitioner such as Angulimala or Milarepa? Otherwise, the karma will still be heavy. Nevertheless I did say quite clearly that one who has chosen to abort babies should try to lighten his and the baby's karma, as well as dedicate merits to the baby.Once again, it will be up to the couples' decision in whether to abort or not for whatever reasons.
No, because I am not responsible for their doings. If it happens to me, then I will take responsibility. I do not have Avalokitesvara's great compassion and capacity, but if such things happen to me, I have no choice but to accept it and take it as a chance to practise the dharma.
You see a retard boy happy that's because the family has the strength and will to go through but not all of them can. But in the bottom of everyone's heart, who would not wish that one's child is normal? You dare to take the vow to have all your babies to be borned deformed and willing to take care of them for the rest of your lives? Of course this is about deformity.
If everyone wish that their child was normal, but didn't want to take responsible a child that has some deformalities, then that's useless. Like I said -- retarded children can lead lives as happy as ours, and we do not have the right to kill them just because there is some deforms as long as they can live their lives well enough. Otherwise it is the same as saying we can kill handicapped people.To those couples who are simply not wanting to take responsibility due to that moment of lust, that's another issue.
Nope, but it is not my child and therefore not my responsibilities. If it is mine then it's a different issue.
Afterall we are bystanders, if the couples are not willing to take then ARE YOU willing to take care?
That is the whole purpose of all these discussion, is to convince people to take responsibilies and to take care of the children themselves. We are not them but we can give dharma advises, there is no problem at all with giving advises.So instead sounding self-righteous here, please expose yourself to these people with special needs. Try to volunteer 2 times a week for say 5 years. Get a feel of yourself. Give some practical love then sitting on a self-made pedestral seat in a surreal forum deciding who has or hasn't have any right to take life or not.
If it happens to me, as a Buddhist practitioner and having learnt so many years of dharma, of course I will do my best to raise the child and not choose abortion.
It's easy for one to preach love, dhamma, etc during peace times. When the real challenges come, it depends again.
WILL YOU BE ABLE TO DO SO YOURSELF?
I just cannot see how one have the right to kill a child. Especially if they are healthy -- at most they can be given for adoption, there is no reason why we should take away a life just because of that. Or even if he has some deformation, as long as he can live well, that's good enough. On my part I will definitely do my best to be loving, patient, and caring.
It's a matter of whether you are practising dharma, practising precepts, metta, and paramitas! Of course, it is not just talk. Cultivation is never an easy thing, if you look into the 500 lifetimes of Shakyamuni Buddha in the Jataka tales, do you think it is easy to practise as a Bodhisattva? But if we do not train and cultivate the paramitas in this way, how can we ever hope to attain Buddhahood?
But of course, in the beginning a true Buddhist should have the wisdom not to end up in such a situation in the first place. -
Hi Yamizi,
Sorry but if you called AEN small boy, who is only abt 8 yrs younger than you, then maybe I shall call you small small boy? Becos being 25 to me is also very very very young.
But that doesn't mean I'm more intelligent or wiser than you or AEN. Life experiences, maybe, not absolutely, but wisdom... not necessary.
I think AEN is correct on the part that abortion shouldn't be done if possible. Then when is it considered impossible to keep the unborn child but to do abortion? We are not doctors, so can't comment on such medical justifications, so I guess the final decision is usually based on whether this child will suffer more if he is to be born eg. deformed to such a way that he is in constant pain, or he will not have any quality of life. Then again, only the medical experts can advice the parents , whom the parents hv to trust. No matter what, such case is most unfortunate.
I remember reading somewhere ( sori, hv to find out this book also
) when The Dalai Lama was asked on his views whether abortion is correct? He said no based on the reason that abortion is killing a life; but when asked abt severely deformed foetus, he paused to contemplate, and said that it was not easy to give an answer...
We shld also contempate, not just on issue of abortion but other things in life as well. AEN is not wrong on asking one to rememeber the cause and effect of whatever we do. So in the case of abortion, what is the first thought or reason for this action? To end suferring? Of whose? Ourselves as the parents or the unborn child?
There may be alot of self-righteous ppl in the whole world, I don't know; but no need to feel sick or tired, anyway our standard of righteouness may not be correct, so we may have at times wrongly accused other as such.
And no lah, AEN is not injecting fear onto ppl abt abortion, but to remind everyone the importance of cause and effect, or wat u referred as cause conditions and effect. Every decision we made , we must be responsible for it ourselves; and every cause of actions shld be made based on compassion and wisdom. Compassion without wisdom is dangerous, actions without compassion is disasterous.
So the conclusion is, my view only, most of us hv different opinions on the aspect of compassion. THat's why we shld all pratice and practise harder... still a long long way to go.
ps: oh one more thing, we also don't hv the right to tell ppl to do volunteering or not.
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I can get only a rough idea but Omniknight won't.Originally posted by yamizi:HZ and Omni,
I hope you guys know what I was driving at =) -
thx thxOriginally posted by cycle:Hi Yamizi,
Sorry but if you called AEN small boy, who is only abt 8 yrs younger than you, then maybe I shall call you small small boy? Becos being 25 to me is also very very very young. But that doesn't mean I'm more intelligent or wiser than you or AEN. Life experiences, maybe, not absolutely, but wisdom... not necessary.
I think AEN is correct on the part that abortion shouldn't be done if possible. Then when is it considered impossible to keep the unborn child but to do abortion? We are not doctors, so can't comment on such medical justifications, so I guess the final decision is usually based on whether this child will suffer more if he is to be born eg. deformed to such a way that he is in constant pain, or he will not have any quality of life. Then again, only the medical experts can advice the parents , whom the parents hv to trust. No matter what, such case is most unfortunate.
I remember reading somewhere ( sori, hv to find out this book also ) when The Dalai Lama was asked on his views whether abortion is correct? He said no based on the reason that abortion is killing a life; but when asked abt severely deformed foetus, he paused to contemplate, and said that it was not easy to give an answer...
We shld also contempate, not just on issue of abortion but other things in life as well. AEN is not wrong on asking one to rememeber the cause and effect of whatever we do. So in the case of abortion, what is the first thought or reason for this action? To end suferring? Of whose? Ourselves as the parents or the unborn child?
There may be alot of self-righteous ppl in the whole world, I don't know; but no need to feel sick or tired, anyway our standard of righteouness may not be correct, so we may have at times wrongly accused other as such.
And no lah, AEN is not injecting fear onto ppl abt abortion, but to remind everyone the importance of cause and effect, or wat u referred as cause conditions and effect. Every decision we made , we must be responsible for it ourselves; and every cause of actions shld be made based on compassion and wisdom. Compassion without wisdom is dangerous, actions without compassion is disasterous.
So the conclusion is, my view only, most of us hv different opinions on the aspect of compassion. THat's why we shld all pratice and practise harder... still a long long way to go.
ps: oh one more thing, we also don't hv the right to tell ppl to do volunteering or not.
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well , i feel that AEN does have its point
of course we cant be making the best decision for ourselves when such thing happen
11 years ago , my christian form teacher battling to keep the child as the child develop complications .well the foetus self-misscarriage , but I know there are babies who were born .I think rather than abortion to get rid of the baby ,it should be best to let it come to this world to have chance to listen to even Buddha chanting
I know i will also be at a lost if my future wife met such situation , I will tell my wife ,"We going to make this child comes to this world enjoy the sunlight and warmth of a family , not despise it of it deformity or disability
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cycle, if you give pause to think, AEN is totally against abortion regardless of the medical situation.Originally posted by cycle:Hi Yamizi,
Sorry but if you called AEN small boy, who is only abt 8 yrs younger than you, then maybe I shall call you small small boy? Becos being 25 to me is also very very very young. But that doesn't mean I'm more intelligent or wiser than you or AEN. Life experiences, maybe, not absolutely, but wisdom... not necessary.
I think AEN is correct on the part that abortion shouldn't be done if possible. Then when is it considered impossible to keep the unborn child but to do abortion? We are not doctors, so can't comment on such medical justifications, so I guess the final decision is usually based on whether this child will suffer more if he is to be born eg. deformed to such a way that he is in constant pain, or he will not have any quality of life. Then again, only the medical experts can advice the parents , whom the parents hv to trust. No matter what, such case is most unfortunate.
I remember reading somewhere ( sori, hv to find out this book also ) when The Dalai Lama was asked on his views whether abortion is correct? He said no based on the reason that abortion is killing a life; but when asked abt severely deformed foetus, he paused to contemplate, and said that it was not easy to give an answer...
We shld also contempate, not just on issue of abortion but other things in life as well. AEN is not wrong on asking one to rememeber the cause and effect of whatever we do. So in the case of abortion, what is the first thought or reason for this action? To end suferring? Of whose? Ourselves as the parents or the unborn child?
There may be alot of self-righteous ppl in the whole world, I don't know; but no need to feel sick or tired, anyway our standard of righteouness may not be correct, so we may have at times wrongly accused other as such.
And no lah, AEN is not injecting fear onto ppl abt abortion, but to remind everyone the importance of cause and effect, or wat u referred as cause conditions and effect. Every decision we made , we must be responsible for it ourselves; and every cause of actions shld be made based on compassion and wisdom. Compassion without wisdom is dangerous, actions without compassion is disasterous.
So the conclusion is, my view only, most of us hv different opinions on the aspect of compassion. THat's why we shld all pratice and practise harder... still a long long way to go.
ps: oh one more thing, we also don't hv the right to tell ppl to do volunteering or not. -
Not exactly. Obviously you wasn't paying attention to my posts. But at the same time I stated that only 3% of abortion are made due to health reasons.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:cycle, if you give pause to think, AEN is totally against abortion regardless of the medical situation.
By Ven. S Dhammika:
http://www.goodquestiongoodanswer.net/gqga_The_Five_Precepts.html
QUESTION: What does Buddhism say about abortion ?
ANSWER: According to the Buddha life begins at conception or very soon after and so to abort a fetus would be to take a life. [Back to Top]
QUESTION: But if a woman is raped or if she knows that her child is going to be deformed, wouldnÂ’t it be better to stop the pregnancy ?
ANSWER: A child conceived as the result of a rape is as entitled to live and be loved as any other child. He or she should not be killed simply because their biological father committed a crime. Giving birth to a deformed or mentally retarded child would be a terrible shock for the parents but if its okay to abort a fetus like this then why not kill children or adults who are deformed or handicapped? There might be situations where abortion was the most humane alternative, for example, to save the life of a mother. But letÂ’s be honest, most abortions are preformed simply because the pregnancy is inconvenient, an embarrassment or because the parents want to have the child later. To Buddhists, these seem a very poor reasons to destroy a life. [Back to Top] -
It's his forum, he can say whatever he like =)Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:cycle, if you give pause to think, AEN is totally against abortion regardless of the medical situation.
cycle,
Being 7 year old makes a lot of difference. The exposure, certainly you would have know would mark great differences.
I've known couples who chose to abort; some don't due to different reasons. The couples who abort doesn't necessarily feel good. But at least to my knowledge, another abortion may actually gave another couple another chance to lead new life.
For me, I'd been asked several times on whether to abort or not reason being friends know that I'm a buddhist and seek my opinion.
I always tell them, by buddhistic principle, one should not take the life of another, especially a human life. I don't go and tell them kill baby bad kamma, kamma will follow you, etc. 'cos these people if there are buddhists, they probably won't even ask me in the first place. And at this situation of paranoid and anxiety, I don't see any good to add in the kamma follow you which is a fear factor to people who probably has little or no idea what kamma is.
However, given in a practical situation, I will in return ask them, are they prepared mentally and financially for this baby? Are they willing to accept the new life? Because ultimately in the end, I am not responsible in bringing up their child, so I don't go and shove it down people's throat that they have no right to this or that!
I don't know how cycle know my age but as you'd claimed to be older, definitely you know better than me that raising a kid, especially in Singapore is definitely not easy.
What is the point when a couple is not prepared for the child and ended up having more family problem? Juvenile violence, drug paddling, family violence, etc. Of course in AEN's eyes these may not substantiate any reason for abortion. For me, it simply lies on the couple's readiness. Mind you, these people are not buddhists to start with! So is AEN willing to take up the responsibility of the bad family situation due to not aborting the child for whatever reason that the couple is not ready for? Of course AEN will say it's not his responsibility!
AEN here definitely has the good kamma to be borned in a family that allowed him not only to live comfortably and have the chance to listen to the good Dhamma.
But this doesn't apply to all.
Why have I choose to response in this thread because I feel what HZ feels about it too as quoted above.
And I think precepts are guidelines, not commandments. But having said that again I stress that I don't mean to encourage people to break them.
AEN, in another current thread on the sexual misconduct, someone quoted about cannot having sex etc, these are really in the vinaya to the best of my knowledge. I think it's Theravada's you can go do a research on that. In fact there are certain day and time one shouldn't have sex. And Buddha said that male organ can only enter female organ and female organ can only allow male organ. This would mean that homosexuality is actually not allowed in Buddhism! Why don't you make some comment on why homsexuality is allowed in contemporary Buddhism then?
Cycle, even HHDL had mentioned about these precepts thing in regards to sexual misconduct, and if my memory didn't fail me, he had said something like it's difficult to answer too!
Of course it's difficult. Given the current time and situation, many things have changed. And how Buddhism is going to adapt to be a more realistic teaching?
Are we simply going to condemn people, buddhists or not who had abortion?
In regards to deformity, as AEN had mentioned no one is given any right to take one's life away simply due to deformity, then I ask, so who has the right to decide that this deformity will be live for the rest of their lives in humiliation and pain?
Sometimes, it even takes quite a long time for the immediate family to accept the child, let alone the eyes of public.
And as AEN as said it's not your responsible in bringing them up, then I think you should learn to take the humble pie and not hanging on your stat and theory by keep saying majority not meant for abortion.
'cos end of the day it's the choice of theirs not yours.
Cycle, I suggest to AEN to do volunteer work, first thing, being in service of others in charity act can be considered as part of a buddhist cultivation and it will give him exposure to the pain of the less fortunate. I believe Buddha's love is the practical love, not sit in meditation treating metta as some kind of wave to generate. The best way to be compassion is to show and act the act of compassion!
To sum my point up, I do not support nor against abortion. If people were to ask me, I will say yes, abortion would violate the first precept of not taking lives. But is the couple willing and prepare for the new life? Because I respect their decision.
I believe HZ and Omni get my points =) -
In the light of all these vigorous discussions, have a read at this blog and really ponder at the true meaning of life and parenthood.
http://ashleyisourangel.blogspot.com/ -
With all due respect Yamizi, I don't think this is a fair comment. We are all entitled to express our beliefs within the forum rules, and to the best of my knowledge, AEN has never used his moderation rights to surpress dissenting opinions, nor have I seen him reacting to trolls in anger.Originally posted by yamizi:It's his forum, he can say whatever he like =)