Buddhism VS Harsh Reality
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Go and suck your 3 percent, numbers don't mean anything in this circumstance but it always depends on your situation.
Not exactly. Obviously you wasn't paying attention to my posts. But at the same time I stated that only 3% of abortion are made due to health reasons.
By Ven. S Dhammika:
http://www.goodquestiongoodanswer.net/gqga_The_Five_Precepts.html
[b]QUESTION: What does Buddhism say about abortion ?
ANSWER: According to the Buddha life begins at conception or very soon after and so to abort a fetus would be to take a life. [Back to Top]
QUESTION: But if a woman is raped or if she knows that her child is going to be deformed, wouldnÂ’t it be better to stop the pregnancy ?
ANSWER: A child conceived as the result of a rape is as entitled to live and be loved as any other child. He or she should not be killed simply because their biological father committed a crime. Giving birth to a deformed or mentally retarded child would be a terrible shock for the parents but if its okay to abort a fetus like this then why not kill children or adults who are deformed or handicapped? There might be situations where abortion was the most humane alternative, for example, to save the life of a mother. But letÂ’s be honest, most abortions are preformed simply because the pregnancy is inconvenient, an embarrassment or because the parents want to have the child later. To Buddhists, these seem a very poor reasons to destroy a life. [Back to Top][/b]
"Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances. If the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance".
Quote from the present Dalai Lama. -
well, I just wish to say everyone , including Yamizi and AEN have their own points which is true
everyone have different background when comes in contact with Buddhism ,
so we cant impose our viewpoint to others
Buddhism is not a religion of dogmatic approach .
I know and understand why AEN chooses not to go volunteer work .. I mean different people have different method of cultivation
some started with meditation and progress to dana
while some with dana and later to meditation
its different people way of drinking coffee ... eventually the purpose is the same ..drank the coffee ...regardless of different ppl different amount of cubes of sugar or creamer
for everyone info .. i dun think your also like my way of drinking coffee
2 mini packets of sugar and 2 packet of creamer
a 2 cent worth of answer ... -
fite simi fite. fite sumore, i delete the whol topic.
bohiruci, dun drink liddat eberitime lah. freakingly unhealthy. -
Originally posted by yamizi:
There are many children who are born in poor families, but they also become very rich and successful people in the future, have you thought of that?
It's his forum, he can say whatever he like =)
cycle,
Being 7 year old makes a lot of difference. The exposure, certainly you would have know would mark great differences.
I've known couples who chose to abort; some don't due to different reasons. The couples who abort doesn't necessarily feel good. But at least to my knowledge, another abortion may actually gave another couple another chance to lead new life.
For me, I'd been asked several times on whether to abort or not reason being friends know that I'm a buddhist and seek my opinion.
I always tell them, by buddhistic principle, one should not take the life of another, especially a human life. I don't go and tell them kill baby bad kamma, kamma will follow you, etc. 'cos these people if there are buddhists, they probably won't even ask me in the first place. And at this situation of paranoid and anxiety, I don't see any good to add in the kamma follow you which is a fear factor to people who probably has little or no idea what kamma is.
However, given in a practical situation, I will in return ask them, are they prepared mentally and financially for this baby? Are they willing to accept the new life? Because ultimately in the end, I am not responsible in bringing up their child, so I don't go and shove it down people's throat that they have no right to this or that!
I don't know how cycle know my age but as you'd claimed to be older, definitely you know better than me that raising a kid, especially in Singapore is definitely not easy.
I think human life is one of the most precious gift, and even if one cannot support the baby there are other options: such as adoption.
If we can give the baby away for adoption, but instead chose to abort due to social reasons, then isn't that irresponsible?
I am not shoving it down people's throat, I'm just asking people to think whether what I said is right or not.What is the point when a couple is not prepared for the child and ended up having more family problem? Juvenile violence, drug paddling, family violence, etc. Of course in AEN's eyes these may not substantiate any reason for abortion. For me, it simply lies on the couple's readiness. Mind you, these people are not buddhists to start with! So is AEN willing to take up the responsibility of the bad family situation due to not aborting the child for whatever reason that the couple is not ready for? Of course AEN will say it's not his responsibility!
Yeah that's not my responsibility, but it is also irresponsible if someone asked for my comments and I say, well, since you're not a Buddhist you can abort. I'm not judging others, I'm not imposing fear on others, I'm just advising that we should avoid abortion to the best of our abilities, because most abortion cases are done due to poor reasons and are completely avoidable just like what Ven S Dhammika said. In this case, don't you think we should advise them not to abort?
Of course it depends on case to case basis, I never said we must not abort no matter what.AEN here definitely has the good kamma to be borned in a family that allowed him not only to live comfortably and have the chance to listen to the good Dhamma.
Yeah, and I won't force Buddhist concepts for non-Buddhists, nevertheless I will advise on the basis of the preciousness of life and encourage the alternatives that one can take. I won't anyhow impose or 'shove' concepts of karma on others. Depending on whether he can accept it, I might mention my viewpoint and perspective of karma, and of course if he is a Buddhist, then of course we can remind him what he already knew.
But this doesn't apply to all.
Why have I choose to response in this thread because I feel what HZ feels about it too as quoted above.And I think precepts are guidelines, not commandments. But having said that again I stress that I don't mean to encourage people to break them.
Agreed. And I never said the Thunder thing is wrong, it's just that I'm a little surprised and I do not know the reason for it, and I said I would like to read further on that, so if someone has any materials on it please refer it to this forum for us to read.
AEN, in another current thread on the sexual misconduct, someone quoted about cannot having sex etc, these are really in the vinaya to the best of my knowledge. I think it's Theravada's you can go do a research on that. In fact there are certain day and time one shouldn't have sex. And Buddha said that male organ can only enter female organ and female organ can only allow male organ.This would mean that homosexuality is actually not allowed in Buddhism! Why don't you make some comment on why homsexuality is allowed in contemporary Buddhism then?
Because nobody is asking about homosexuality in that thread, what. I posted some articles previously.Cycle, even HHDL had mentioned about these precepts thing in regards to sexual misconduct, and if my memory didn't fail me, he had said something like it's difficult to answer too!
That requires wisdom to talk about it and yet not distort Buddha's teachings. Otherwise better not comment. I have never seen HHDL going against what Buddha preaches.
Similarly, I didn't say in all cases abortions cannot be made (such as to save the mother's life). But at the same time I try to align myself with what the Buddha taught about not killing lives. I don't have much wisdom, but at least I think I didn't go against Buddhism's teachings of non-killing in any major way yet on the points.Of course it's difficult. Given the current time and situation, many things have changed. And how Buddhism is going to adapt to be a more realistic teaching?
Dharma is dharma, you can't change dharma, you can only change the way you bring the message to the world. The dharma is taught by the Buddha, we do not teach our own dharma, if we want to talk about Buddhism we should only talk about what was taught by the Buddha. We can mention our own personal views, but we should put a disclaimer that this was not taught by Buddha, it is just my view.
You cannot change the truth! Not that I am judging people, but think for yourself, do I have the right to anyhow fit the dharma with our own concepts? The Dharma is taught by Buddha! Do I have the right to distort it base on my needs..? In any case you may choose not to follow the Buddha on certain issues, and that's fine because we all make choices for ourselves and are responsible for our own action and thinking.
But can we say that we are 'fitting dharma to our situation', or is it really just 'we are incapable of following strictly the dharma because I am not yet a Buddha or a great practitioner' and I don't have his greatness and wisdom? I'm not saying everyone here is a great practitioner, and neither am I, I'm just saying we shouldn't use our own sentient being's concepts to interpret Buddha's teachings. We should be very careful of this and I'm not saying I have never made this mistake before, I'm just saying we should be careful of this point and hopefully help each other, remind each other, when one of us made this mistake.Are we simply going to condemn people, buddhists or not who had abortion?
Buddhists never condemn anyone, we treat all beings as equal, I have also not condemn anyone, in fact I said those who have undergone abortion does not mean they are doomed or condemned, but they should try to clear their karma and dedicate merits to the deceased. -
In regards to deformity, as AEN had mentioned no one is given any right to take one's life away simply due to deformity, then I ask, so who has the right to decide that this deformity will be live for the rest of their lives in humiliation and pain?
But you must see things in a bigger perspective.
There are many cases where there are deformities but a person can continue to live like others, and given a choice of course they would want to continue living. Like most handicapped people, just because they are handicapped doesn't mean they don't want to live.Sometimes, it even takes quite a long time for the immediate family to accept the child, let alone the eyes of public.
Ok let's not talk about statistics, but clearly there are many people out there who can choose the alternative, and we must do our best to advise them, encourage them to choose a better path than to kill a child. We are not being 'arrogant' or 'shoving people down Buddhist ideas', but it must be done out of sincerity and good will, to appreciate life's preciousness.
And as AEN as said it's not your responsible in bringing them up, then I think you should learn to take the humble pie and not hanging on your stat and theory by keep saying majority not meant for abortion.'cos end of the day it's the choice of theirs not yours.
I never denied that, like I said we never shove things down on others, we can only advise.Cycle, I suggest to AEN to do volunteer work, first thing, being in service of others in charity act can be considered as part of a buddhist cultivation and it will give him exposure to the pain of the less fortunate. I believe Buddha's love is the practical love, not sit in meditation treating metta as some kind of wave to generate. The best way to be compassion is to show and act the act of compassion!
That is a good advise and I thank you for that...To sum my point up, I do not support nor against abortion. If people were to ask me, I will say yes, abortion would violate the first precept of not taking lives. But is the couple willing and prepare for the new life? Because I respect their decision.
Personally, I would not ask them 'are you prepared or willing' because this discourages them at the times of confusion, so if they are thinking whether they should choose to abort, they will result in thinking more negatively.
I would just encourage them, help them, give our support we can give, eventually they may appreciate it. We are also helping to save a life.
This does not mean we disrespect his descision, like I said, it is only advise and encouragement.
Of course it is mutually understood that ultimately it's your own choice you have to make. -
By the way, seriously, those who are facing such issues please consult a wise Buddhist teacher or venerable and talk it out.
I do not have much wisdom to see case to case, I only speak generally from my perspective. I believe other forummers are the same. -
But you must see things in a bigger perspective.
more like they dont dare to die because they were taught to fear pain
There are many cases where there are deformities but a person can continue to live like others, and given a choice of course they would want to continue living. Like most handicapped people, just because they are handicapped doesn't mean they don't want to live. -
Nope.Originally posted by Omniknight:more like they dont dare to die because they were taught to fear pain
Most beings want to live by their own will. It is not just about fear of pain.
And btw, abortion is a very very painful and gruelling process for the baby, and is is just unfortunate that most people are not aware of this fact and this process. Please refer to the older thread on abortion, there are also videos describing the process.
Nobody wants pain, you don't have to teach them. A baby by itself will cry when it is in pain, you don't need to teach him. -
I thot i have shared on thisOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Nope.
Most beings want to live by their own will. It is not just about fear of pain.
And btw, abortion is a very very painful and gruelling process for the baby, and is is just unfortunate that most people are not aware of this fact and this process. Please refer to the older thread on abortion, there are also videos describing the process.
Nobody wants pain, you don't have to teach them. A baby by itself will cry when it is in pain, you don't need to teach him.
the video on abortion during my General Paper lesson shows that the baby head was crushed inside the foetus to allow the body to be suck in by a vacuum .Thats the most cruel part.And one can see the scary life and death frantic struggle through the CT Scope
I will never forget the part as this told me abortion by getting rid of unwanted births is a wrong move .
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me dun eben dare watch it. canot stand gory scenes at all.
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Later, we see Hello Kitty transform into Devil Kitty and shoot us all...Originally posted by Hello Kitty:fite simi fite. fite sumore, i delete the whol topic.
bohiruci, dun drink liddat eberitime lah. freakingly unhealthy.
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Hi Yamizi,
I'm still nursing a flu now so a bit blur blur, so I'll try to make it short.
This is a Buddhism Forum so of cos we will bring in the theory of karma when discussing the issues of abortion. I beleive AEN will never go to the hospitals and tell all the non- buddhist patients who are contemplating abortion the terrible karmic results they wld incurred later for themselves. So, don't worry.
But should non-buddhists need our advice as buddhist on the stance of abortion, we must tell them the laws of cause and effect to the best of our knowlege( best to consult our dharma Masters or teachers first ) , not to frighten them as what you insisted but help to let them made a important rational decision based on true responsibility. Its like telling patients that this drug A can relieve thier pains but won't cure their illness; drug B can cure their illness but they hv to endure the pain a bit longer. THEN it is up to them whether they choose A or B. We shouldn't withold important information.
We should not distort Buddhadharma to appease or appeal to non- buddhists and the likes. Black is black, white is white, no grey pls.
As what AEn, Bohiruchi, me and some of the other forumers here had already mentioned, abortion due to medical justifications or due to humane reasons are for the relevent experts to comment. We are talking abt abortion due to the parents own convenience. That's why any reasons may become excuses.
I think there is no point to go on if we r placing importance on different things. I feel basically your argument is always fr the parent's side. I summarised your statements n my anwers as below:
1."... are the parents prepared mentally n financially for the new baby?" - so you mean if not ready, kill?
2. "...are they willing to accept the new life?" - so if not willing, kill?
3."...not cheap n easy to raise a child." - so if expensive, kill?
4."...not prepared for child= later more problems." - so if not prepared, or frighten of parent-child problems, kill?
5."...parents not buddhists." - not buddhists, so up to them, kill?
6."...not everyone listen to good Dharma like AEN." - too bad, so? KIll?
7.."...even some immediate families cannot accept child." - cannot be accepted by the parents, so don't care own child or not, kill?
Your above reasons, all the while, unfortunately do not shows any regard to the unborn child. Its always " we, we, we," (the parents). Or in your concern, they,they, they the parents.
Noboby here condemn ppl who did abortions, wat. We keep saying to remember cause n effects and to think carefully about the reasons for abortion. You may be too sensitive. You clearly hv compassion, but which way?
As a Buddhist, same as you I"m generally against abortion. HHDL is also against abortions. That's why his first ans to abortion is "NO". Abortions due to humane concerns need wisdom. And wisdom includes the understanding of cause n effects.
LIfe is of cos not easy, but that doesn't mean we can take the easy way out.
Lastly ( my fever is returning ), as what you stressed all the time that abortion is the parents' choices not ours, so we shld respect their decision. Yes, I respect the parents' final decision if they hv considered the responsibilities of the actions they hv done, becos this wld mean they wld made sure not to let this happen again. But I can only say it is most unfortunate shld the parents do aborton just for their own sake, as this may means that they wild do it again n again... -
- Oh, yamizi, your year of birth is shown clearly in your profile for public viewing.
- and oh, I think AEn is also doing volunteering in BWB by providing the forumers here lots of good materials n links regarding the Dharma. This is also a paramita of Giving.
- too attached to forms like voluntering must be of certain patterns or ways wld leads to vexations too.
- but of cos if AEN can mix wif ppl of poorer backgrounds( maybe he has, we don't know), he may advanced faster in his practise. But again ths is also a form of attachment.
ok, gtg. take pills n lie down. -
You have some good points in there.Originally posted by cycle:Hi Yamizi,
I'm still nursing a flu now so a bit blur blur, so I'll try to make it short.
This is a Buddhism Forum so of cos we will bring in the theory of karma when discussing the issues of abortion. I beleive AEN will never go to the hospitals and tell all the non- buddhist patients who are contemplating abortion the terrible karmic results they wld incurred later for themselves. So, don't worry.
But should non-buddhists need our advice as buddhist on the stance of abortion, we must tell them the laws of cause and effect to the best of our knowlege( best to consult our dharma Masters or teachers first ) , not to frighten them as what you insisted but help to let them made a important rational decision based on true responsibility. Its like telling patients that this drug A can relieve thier pains but won't cure their illness; drug B can cure their illness but they hv to endure the pain a bit longer. THEN it is up to them whether they choose A or B. We shouldn't withold important information.
We should not distort Buddhadharma to appease or appeal to non- buddhists and the likes. Black is black, white is white, no grey pls.
As what AEn, Bohiruchi, me and some of the other forumers here had already mentioned, abortion due to medical justifications or due to humane reasons are for the relevent experts to comment. We are talking abt abortion due to the parents own convenience. That's why any reasons may become excuses.
I think there is no point to go on if we r placing importance on different things. I feel basically your argument is always fr the parent's side. I summarised your statements n my anwers as below:
1."... are the parents prepared mentally n financially for the new baby?" - so you mean if not ready, kill?
2. "...are they willing to accept the new life?" - so if not willing, kill?
3."...not cheap n easy to raise a child." - so if expensive, kill?
4."...not prepared for child= later more problems." - so if not prepared, or frighten of parent-child problems, kill?
5."...parents not buddhists." - not buddhists, so up to them, kill?
6."...not everyone listen to good Dharma like AEN." - too bad, so? KIll?
7.."...even some immediate families cannot accept child." - cannot be accepted by the parents, so don't care own child or not, kill?
Your above reasons, all the while, unfortunately do not shows any regard to the unborn child. Its always " we, we, we," (the parents). Or in your concern, they,they, they the parents.
Noboby here condemn ppl who did abortions, wat. We keep saying to remember cause n effects and to think carefully about the reasons for abortion. You may be too sensitive. You clearly hv compassion, but which way?
As a Buddhist, same as you I"m generally against abortion. HHDL is also against abortions. That's why his first ans to abortion is "NO". Abortions due to humane concerns need wisdom. And wisdom includes the understanding of cause n effects.
LIfe is of cos not easy, but that doesn't mean we can take the easy way out.
Lastly ( my fever is returning ), as what you stressed all the time that abortion is the parents' choices not ours, so we shld respect their decision. Yes, I respect the parents' final decision if they hv considered the responsibilities of the actions they hv done, becos this wld mean they wld made sure not to let this happen again. But I can only say it is most unfortunate shld the parents do aborton just for their own sake, as this may means that they wild do it again n again...
Get well soon -
ssshhhhhhOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Later, we see Hello Kitty transform into Devil Kitty and shoot us all... -
Hello Kitty will do the Devil May Cry style of fighting.Originally posted by Hello Kitty:ssshhhhhh