Y The Notion That U Can't Bcom What U Already R is Bullshit
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Had to shorten the title from original words due to title limits
Anyway there's this new article I just noticed today, in Dharma Dan's website, written by him. I think this problem isn't very common among forummers here, though I have seen this problem very prevalent in many other places, and thought it's worth sharing so that we all can be clear about this point and not get confused by what might be said by others.
About this article which I shared with Thusness, Thusness thinks that it is a very very good article though it missed out certain great practitioners who realised self-liberation* with no prior practices (very rare, cream of the enlightened, manifests of great bodhisattvas/practitioners/buddhas, etc), or certain pratyekabuddhas, a.k.a those of direct path (which btw, would mean that the person had done lots of practices in previous lifetimes as well) and therefore is able to attain great awakening in no time. For most of us, the following article is going to contain a lot of good info that cuts through all the bullshit that is taught in many places.
*Note for readers: Self-liberation does not mean that a self liberates himself or herself from delusorily valued thoughts or delusory experiences; what it means is that delusorily valued thoughts and delusory experiences liberate themselves spontaneously (which may take place in three main ways). (Source: http://eliascapriles.dzogchen.ru/self-liberation.pdf)
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Source: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/bullshit.shtml
Why The Notion That You Cannot Become What You Already Are is Such Bullshit
(by Dharma Dan, Daniel M. Ingram, MD MSPH, Arahat)
There was a guy on a blogsite to which I sometimes post who kept inserting comments in our discussion such as you can not become what you already are, awakening is not about more knowledge but instead about less knowledge, and that awakening happens regardless of study and meditation. I have encountered this vile point of view and its variants before, and so replied as follows, in slightly edited form:
Dear [delusional view-poster],
Somehow I just cannot resist countering your point of view with every bit of rhetorical force I have despite the fact that I am afraid the number who listen will be few.
Here is a detailed analysis of what is wrong with that perspective on a number of fronts:
The notion that you cannot become what you already are implies a whole host of conceptual problems that I will claim do not lead to much that is good that cannot be attained by conceptual frameworks that are not so problematic. Here is a list of the problems:
1) This notion encourages people to not practice. You can say what you like, but again and again I see people who subscribe to this and similar notions resting on their cleverness and grand posteriors and not actually getting it in the same way that my accomplished meditator friends get it. It seems so comforting, this notion that you are already something that you, in fact, are not. This brings us to the question of what you are and are not.
2) This notion solidifies a True Self teaching almost by definition. From any cursory analysis, what we are from an insight point of view is an extrapolation of continuity from a pattern of utterly fresh, transient, ephemeral, causal sensations. Anything added to this is extraneous from an insight point of view. Try as people might, a True Self in an experiential sense cannot be found. Thus, the notion that people already are something begs the question: What are they? It tends to imply that they are already something such as perfect, enlightened, realized, awakened, or something even worse such as Awareness, Cosmic Consciousness, The Atman, an aspect of The Divine, etc. all of which cannot actually be found. While Buddhism does sometimes go there, such as using terms such as Dharmakaya and Buddha Nature, these are very slippery, high concepts that were added later and require a ton of explanation and practice experience to keep them from becoming the monsters they nearly always become in less experienced hands.
3) Awakening involves clearly perceiving universal characteristics of phenomena. While one can attempt to rest comfortably in the notion that as these universal characteristics are there anyway, the whole, core, essential, root point of all this is that there is something to be gained by becoming one of the people that can actually directly perceive this clearly enough to fundamentally change the way reality is perceived in real-time. The straight truth is that the vast majority of people do not start out being able to do this at all. The notion that everyone already is someone who can perceive reality this way without effort in real-time is a fantastic falsehood, lie, untruth, and in short, one great load of apathy-creating bullshit. Said another say, your notion, namely that one cannot become one of the people who can perceive this because everyone already is a clear perceiver of highest caliber, is a profound delusion and simply does not hold up to reality testing.
If one goes around asking people without very good insight into these things, i.e. the unenlightened, about basic dharma points, points that are obvious to those who have learned to pay attention well, one does not find that everyone already is a person who is perceiving things at the level that makes the difference the dharma promises. Further, even those of lower levels of enlightenment generally have a hard time saying they really are able to perceive the emptiness, luminosity, selflessness, causality, transience, ephemerality, etc. of reality in real-time at all times without having to really do anything. In short, your notion that this is as easy as just being what you already are is wildly off the mark, as the vast majority of people are woefully underdeveloped on the perceptual front in question.
Thus, all reality testing reveals that your notion is missing a very fundamental point: while the universal characteristics are always manifesting in all things and at all times, there are those that can perceive this well and those that cannot, and meditative training, conceptual frameworks, techniques, teachers, texts, discussions and the like can all contribute to developing the internal skills and wiring to be able to fully realize what is possible, as thousands of practitioners throughout the ages have noticed.
I have no idea where you are getting this bizarre notion, except that perhaps you are reading The Power of Now, following Adiashanti, or some other tradition that for reasons completely beyond me assumes that everyone already has the powers of perception of the rarest perceptual superstars.
I myself have known before and after, meaning that I know what I was capable of perceiving and understanding before I underwent meditative training and after, and no amount of being fed the concept that I was already as developed as I could be, was already enlightened, was already there, had nothing to do, nothing to develop, was already as clear as I could be, was already perfectly awake, etc. was going to make the difference that the thousands of hours over years of increasing my ability to perceive things clearly did. -
(continued)
It would be like saying: you are already a concert pianist, you just have to realize it, or you already are a nuclear physicist, you just have to realize it, or you already speak every language, you just have to realize it.
It would be like saying to a two-year old: you already understand everything you need to know so stop learning new things now, or to a severe paranoid schizophrenic: you already are as sane as anyone and do not need to take your meds and should just follow the voices that tell you to kill people, or to a person with heart disease: just keep smoking and eating twinkies and you will be healthy, or to an illiterate person with no math skills who keeps having a hard time navigating in the modern world and is constantly disempowered and ripped off: no need to learn to read and do math, as you are just fine as you are, or saying to a greedy, corrupt, corporate-raiding, white-collar criminal, Fascist, alcoholic wife-beater: hey, Dude, you are a like, beautiful perfect flower of the Now Moment, already enlightened [insert toke here], you are doing and not-doing just fine, like wow, so keep up the good work, Man.
Would you let a blind and partially paralyzed untrained stroke victim perform open-heart surgery on your child based on the notion that they already are an accomplished surgeon but just have to realize it? Would you follow the dharma teachings of people who feed other people this kind of crap? In short, are you completely out of your mind?
Those who imagine that everyone somehow in their development already became as clear and perceptive as they could be just by being alive is missing something very profound. Do you imagine that you can just remind people of these things and suddenly all wisdom and clarity will suddenly just appear? This mind-bogglingly naive. I simply have to ask: from where did you attain this fantastic fixed delusion?
I have gained so much that is good and lost so much that is bad by learning to practice well, learning to concentrate, learning the theory, learning insight practices, going through the organic process of the stages over decades, reading the stories, reading about the lives of the great practitioners, having dharma conversations with dharma friends, debating points, wrestling with difficult concepts and how to apply them to my actual life, teaching, learning, studying, playing with the powers, writing, realizing how things are, and delving deeply into the sensate world that I am astounded that anyone would want to try to reduce something so grand, wonderful, deep, rich, amazing and profound to such a paltry, ridiculous concept as the notion that all that is already in place in everyone regardless of what they have done or not done. All those benefits, skills, abilities, powers, states, stages, experiences, insights, and fundamental perceptual changes simply were not available until I did the work, took the time, participated in the process, and no amount of anyone telling me it was otherwise would have helped or made it so.
This is an organic, causal process. I know of no examples where the necessary and sufficient causes did not involve some kind of work rather than a mere concept that somehow all those benefits and abilities have magically appeared already and they somehow just did not notice until you told them they had.
In short: STOP IT! You are spreading craziness, and this is craziness that many people will not be able to tell is craziness, including, it seems, yourself. While I usually do not go so far as to tell people that there is something so deeply wrong with what they think and how they communicate it that they should stop it immediately and forever, this particular point is a great example of something I consider abhorrent and worthy of profound revision.
Regardless of any kind intentions, the teachings that you perpetuate take a half-truth that seems so very nice and seductive to us neurotic Americans who just can barely stand another achievement trip and have such a hard time with self-acceptance and turn it into sugary poison.
There is no need to tie the three useful concepts of 1) no-self, 2) self-acceptance in the ordinary sense, and 3) the notion that the sensations that lead to understanding if clearly perceived over and over again are manifesting right here, right now, to such a perversely twisted yet seemingly benign and similar concept as the one you unfortunately promote. While they look the same, careful examination will reveal why your way of stating things is so deeply flawed.
P.S. For those not used to this sort of hard-hitting rhetoric, check out texts where the Buddha took on some dogmas he considered useless or harmful and see if he wasn*t even more forceful than me at points. -
Though I must say Eckhart Tolle and The Power of Now is quite OK compared to many other teachers out there under the same category. At least he does not go all out with the 'no practice needed', 'not needing to do anything' sort of ideas.. and he stresses certain Mindfulness practices such as inner-body meditation, and many other meditations similar to Vipassana meditation. So, I think there are quite a lot of valuable things in The Power of Now worth reading, and is quite practical and recommendable, though to be honest (may upset some people) Eckhart Tolle has not attained full awakening. BTW Dharma Dan replied one of my e-mails (had several questions in there) where he briefly mentioned about Eckhart Tolle as wellOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:I have no idea where you are getting this bizarre notion, except that perhaps you are reading The Power of Now, following Adiashanti, or some other tradition that for reasons completely beyond me assumes that everyone already has the powers of perception of the rarest perceptual superstars.
On the other hand some Buddhist, but mostly Neo-Advaita teachers would go to the extreme in teaching about not needing to do anything, not needing to practice hard to get enlightened. This only causes more confusions and ignorance, IMO, and impedes a practitioner's progress.
And then there are many teachers out there who had certain transcendental insights and awakenings, but are incomplete awakenings, and think that, that's it. No need to practice anymore, my true nature is complete, etc, not knowing he is no where near liberation nor full awakening.
I have not read Adyashanti, so no comments about him, I am speaking generally. There are a whole lot of such teachers out there who teaches the same sort of confusion as those described above.It would be like saying: you are already a concert pianist, you just have to realize it, or you already are a nuclear physicist, you just have to realize it, or you already speak every language, you just have to realize it.
When I pasted this to my friend, he asked me "so easy meh?"
It would be like saying to a two-year old: you already understand everything you need to know so stop learning new things now, or to a severe paranoid schizophrenic: you already are as sane as anyone and do not need to take your meds and should just follow the voices that tell you to kill people, or to a person with heart disease: just keep smoking and eating twinkies and you will be healthy, or to an illiterate person with no math skills who keeps having a hard time navigating in the modern world and is constantly disempowered and ripped off: no need to learn to read and do math, as you are just fine as you are, or saying to a greedy, corrupt, corporate-raiding, white-collar criminal, Fascist, alcoholic wife-beater: hey, Dude, you are a like, beautiful perfect flower of the Now Moment, already enlightened [insert toke here], you are doing and not-doing just fine, like wow, so keep up the good work, Man.
I told him, of cos not, Dharma Dan is just suaning these people.
He said: "ooo ok, really sounds like wot these ppl will write"
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Great article...
Thanks for the sharing
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Yea, I do think so too.Originally posted by longchen:Great article...
Thanks for the sharing
Here's another good one, also from the same URL as the one he posted the reply above: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/05/buddhist-geeks-9-enlightened-teachers/
Daniel Ingram on Mar 15th, 2007 said:
Dear Robyn,
The question of effort is an old and important question.
The Buddha addressed it well, particularly in a series of Suttas in the Middle Length Discourses, #131-135, titled “One Fortunate Attachment” and variations on that title, and makes similar points in a great many other places.
I quote from the poem that is repeated in those suttas, using the translation of Bhikkhus Ñanamoli and Bodhi, which I highly recommend:
“Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.
Instead, with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?
No bargain with mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has one fortunate attachment.”
The problem with goal oriented effort in insight meditation arises only when it is effort to get to something that is not here, rather than realizing that what must be understood is right here. There is absolutely no conceptual or practical conflict with trying to be with reality as it is and know it deeply.
Look into the traditions that seem to advocate doing something else, and you will paradoxically see that the Zen Masters or other teachers in those traditions did a ton of hardcore practice (at least the good ones did), just like nearly everyone else who got some understanding, and they advocate that practitioners do the same.
Beware of people who say purely, “There is nothing to get, nothing to do, no attainment to understand, nothing to work on, nothing to achieve, nothing to develop,” and don’t balance that with a hefty dose of, “And this is how you understand that deeply for yourself in a way that cuts beyond concepts and leads to all-pervading and complete direct experience that makes some beneficial difference.”
All of the people that I know who have real, lasting insights did it by going on retreats, practicing well-tested insight techniques of some good tradition, and making effort to increase their level of basic clarity and direct perception. Just as if you wanted to learn a trade, language, musical instrument, sport or just about anything else you must practice it, so too with learning to develop the abilities in the Three Trainings of Morality, Concentration and Wisdom. Why people imagine that regarding these specific endeavors effort suddenly will not be helpful is a mystery not soon resolved, but regardless of the causes of this bizarre paradigm, it is a simple and obvious falsehood to imagine that suddenly these things will be mastered without some sort of practice.
As this practice is such an adventure, and our own personal adventure, and the skills of basic clarity and comprehension so fundamentally helpful to nearly every aspect of life, I am always surprised when smart, thoughtful, eager, engaged, able, politically free people who have come in contact with these things donÂ’t nearly automatically decide to put these things into practice and make some time and direct effort to learn what wisdom lies in these highly practical and direct spiritual technologies.
I hope that is helpful,
Daniel -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
...The Buddha addressed it well, particularly in a series of Suttas in the Middle Length Discourses, #131-135, titled “One Fortunate Attachment” and variations on that title, and makes similar points in a great many other places.
I quote from the poem that is repeated in those suttas, using the translation of Bhikkhus Ñanamoli and Bodhi, which I highly recommend:
“Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.
Instead, with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?
No bargain with mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has one fortunate attachment.”The problem with goal oriented effort in insight meditation arises only when it is effort to get to something that is not here, rather than realizing that what must be understood is right here. There is absolutely no conceptual or practical conflict with trying to be with reality as it is and know it deeply...
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Dharma Dan is one person I respect a lot but perhaps these practitioners are not just putting some paradoxical statements to satisfy their ego. They are as sincere.
I think we should also look at it from another angle. Seeing it from the perspective of someone that is practicing equally hard as Dharma Dan and has attained certain form of insight. What are the rationales for them to express in such a way. This may reveal something valuable.
Nevertheless, I do agree what Dharma Dan said. Self-liberation and spontaneous manifestation must be correctly understood.
My 2 cents. -
There are some very interesting development/discussions between posters and Dharma Dan at the URL recently that I and Thusness have been keeping a close watchOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Yea, I do think so too.
Here's another good one, also from the same URL as the one he posted the reply above: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/05/buddhist-geeks-9-enlightened-teachers/
Really interesting read.