Can anyone add to this?
-
Our life situations does not matter if we are concerned with realising our true nature.
Realising our true nature is the primary goal of every Buddhist.
At the mundane level, the self is required for day-to-day communications, comparisons and differentiation. This requires skillfulness.
An analogy,
Take for example kneading dough (flour). Dough is the mind, while the dough-kneader is our self-nature (true nature). For aeons, we are overly focused on the dough -- its texture, color, water amount and how to make it into say a curry pok. But we forgot that no matter wat the dough becomes, the dough kneader is not affected at all. -
I think a better way to say it is when you realise ultimate, you realise that relative truths are not absolute, but also you realise relative is ultimate, ultimate is relative. They are not two.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I think that one has to discern what is relative truth and ultimate reality. When talking about relative truths (such as talking about mundane affairs, etc), it is unhelpful to bring in ultimate reality as it just confuses.
On the other hand, when one is talking about ultimate reality, then relative truths does not apply because the ultimate nature of reality is the nature of reality regardless of what is the content of that reality.
It's like asking if there is no self, why does a Bodhisattva have compassion and want to save other beings? Because ultimate reality does not contradict relative truths (where we talk about I, Me, You, etc), it is only that we no longer see relative truths as absolute, we are no longer confused.
(Diamond Sutra elaborates a lot on this, regarding no-self, no sentient being to be saved, and yet working for all sentient being's liberation)
p.s. Accepting what is does not contradict with trying to change things. It is like what Eckhart said, it is only that one no longer treats the present moment as a means to an end. Then one just do what one needs to do without attaching to outcome and preferences. Response that arises is spontaneous and out of Prajna, without being affected by our attachment and delusions. -
"not affected at all"... really? You can do really stupid things and never regret it?Originally posted by earthling82:Our life situations does not matter if we are concerned with realising our true nature.
Realising our true nature is the primary goal of every Buddhist.
At the mundane level, the self is required for day-to-day communications, comparisons and differentiation. This requires skillfulness.
An analogy,
Take for example kneading dough (flour). Dough is the mind, while the dough-kneader is our self-nature (true nature). For aeons, we are overly focused on the dough -- its texture, color, water amount and how to make it into say a curry pok. But we forgot that no matter wat the dough becomes, the dough kneader is not affected at all. -
hmmmm your answers are getting better all the time and you do not cut and paste so muchOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:I think a better way to say it is when you realise ultimate, you realise that relative truths are not absolute, but also you realise relative is ultimate, ultimate is relative. They are not two.
so which do you focus on? Ultimate or relative? -
As an analogy that's ok... but one must also not mistaken that self-nature and manifestation are separate, or that the analogy is ultimate. In direct experience we can't separate self-nature from manifestation. Everything is an expression of self-nature, they are not separate. There is no self-nature apart from the luminously expressing manifestation, it just cannot be found, it is not a background or 'I AM'.Originally posted by earthling82:Our life situations does not matter if we are concerned with realising our true nature.
Realising our true nature is the primary goal of every Buddhist.
At the mundane level, the self is required for day-to-day communications, comparisons and differentiation. This requires skillfulness.
An analogy,
Take for example kneading dough (flour). Dough is the mind, while the dough-kneader is our self-nature (true nature). For aeons, we are overly focused on the dough -- its texture, color, water amount and how to make it into say a curry pok. But we forgot that no matter wat the dough becomes, the dough kneader is not affected at all.
...The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else....
Therefore there is no constant Witness watching the flow of phenomenality, there is no Knowingness apart from the everchangingness. Yet there is no movement, no coming and going, because all manifestation that arises, arises completely spontaneously. (Also see: Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana Deconstruction of Time)
So always remember... No watcher is needed, the process itself knows and rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga.
Any form of sinking back to a 'constant background source' is the reaction of our karmic propensities bonding us perceive a subject-object dualistic split, even after certain direct experiences.
See: Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am" -
Ultimately there is no ultimate and relative duality, even that is a relative truth. To focus on relative is also focus on ultimate, only a matter of whether you have insights to it.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hmmmm your answers are getting better all the time and you do not cut and paste so much
so which do you focus on? Ultimate or relative?
I remember you had an analogy on 'car'... I think it's a good explanation. I'm trying to find it
-
From your thread Time does not exists - Andrew PK Yap
Is the car black? (even if the car is black), yes and no.
Relative.
Is the car a Toyota? (even if Toyota manufactured it and the name on the car says, Toyota), yes and no
Is the car metallic? yes and noIt is? All of the above and more...
Ultimate.That is what "not having a dualistic" mind means.
And so atoms are not apart from car, car is not apart from atoms. Emptiness is not apart from car, car is not apart from Emptiness.
It certainly does not mean that all we can say about a car is: What is a car? It is a car!
There is a concept called regression. What is regression? You look at a piece of Gold. You break it down and what do you get? Molecules. You break down the molecules and what do you get? Atoms. You break down the atoms....
This way, we understand Gold. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:As an analogy that's ok... but one must also not mistaken that self-nature and manifestation are separate, or that the analogy is ultimate. In direct experience we can't separate self-nature from manifestation. Everything is an expression of self-nature, they are not separate. There is no self-nature apart from the luminously expressing manifestation, it just cannot be found, it is not a background or 'I AM'.
...The entire universe is a transparent shimmering of the Divine, of primordial Purity. But the Divine is not someplace else, it is just all of this shimmering. It is self-seen. It has One Taste. It is nowhere else....
(Source: Ven Shen Kai, Fa Yu Bing Fen)
p.s. for more articles regarding the non-dual reality, please visit http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/some-writings-on-non-duality-by-ken.html, also read the following articles in the same blog (under different months):
# Thusness's Six Stages of Experience
# Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
# How is Non-duality like?
in fact most of those articles I posted in that forum surrounds these issues such as non-duality. I have never mentioned this blog on this forum before, and I don't usually show people unless I feel there is a need to correct certain understandings in here and other places (usually by PM). -
I asked you about "focusing"; what do you focus on? What does your mind focus on moment to moment? Ultimate or Relative truths?
-
Relative. But I also said, whatever you are focusing is not the problem, it is only a matter of whether insights are there. It is clarity that is the key. (same thing as what I said before: clarity is not about behavior modifications, and that includes what you are focusing)Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I asked you about "focusing"; what do you focus on? What does your mind focus on moment to moment? Ultimate or Relative truths?
When you have insights, you can 'see' that relative is ultimate, ultimate is relative. An enlightened person can completely engross/focus himself on the relative, insight is unhindered. Actually there is no ultimate apart from relative, no relative apart from ultimate.
p.s. But anyway, to make myself clear to everyone, I am not enlightened. (though some people here are) -
So if there is no difference (are you saying no difference?) whether you focus on relative or ultimate, then what is the difference whether you even know or do not know ultimate reality?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Relative. But I also said, whatever you are focusing is not the problem, it is only a matter of whether insights are there. It is clarity that is the key.
When you have insights, you can 'see' that relative is ultimate, ultimate is relative. An enlightened person can completely engross/focus himself on the relative, insight is unhindered. Actually there is no ultimate apart from relative, no relative apart from ultimate.
Everyone everyday everywhere is focusing on anything and whatever and if there are no differences than why talk about it? -
oi reply quickly ah! don't go and read up ah!.... don't google and see what you can cut and paste ah! Sorry, just joking, I gtg... talk to you again...
-
Sorry I don't click F5 (refresh) every second leh... I just saw your post.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:oi reply quickly ah! don't go and read up ah!.... don't google and see what you can cut and paste ah! Sorry, just joking, I gtg... talk to you again... -
What's the difference? One is you are able to perceive the true nature and thus liberated, one is you are ignorant and is in suffering.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So if there is no difference (are you saying no difference?) whether you focus on relative or ultimate, then what is the difference whether you even know or do not know ultimate reality?
Everyone everyday everywhere is focusing on anything and whatever and if there are no differences than why talk about it?
Now ultimately the true nature is always Thus, whether you are enlightened or not. But there is a difference (relative truths, which as you know isn't separate from ultimate) between being able to perceive reality and not being able to.
I wasn't saying there is no difference whether you are enlightened, what I mean is ultimately, there is no duality of relative and ultimate reality. However, it requires insights to see it. Even suffering, momentum, and ignorance is equally an expression of our luminous-emptiness Buddha Nature. Awakening is not through any efforts of getting rid of ignorance, it is through just seeing the nature of ignorance. Then there is liberation.
As Thusness says, Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that both ocean and wave are one and the same. -
Exerpt from Transcript of the Lankavatara Sutra Sharing Session by Thusness
Participant 1: “Practice” (Participant 3) has this question on the Window.
Thusness: Ok. Windows programming.
Participant 1: Not lah, the chat window lah. {laughs}
Thusness: Ok. I thought you entered into Programming.
Participant 1: The question is “Does that mean that we try to practise the right conditions such as meditation for the mind in order to let the luminosity to arise.”
Thusness: Luminosity will always arise. It never fails to arise. Now, let me tell you what is luminosity in the simplest sense. Have you ever experienced suffering? Or you experience anything. Suffering... Suffering is actually luminosity. Otherwise how do you know it is suffering? Why the pain is so real? Anything that is real, that you feel, that you touch, anything that you feel so real. It is actually luminosity. How can you know what suffering is all about? Without thoughts or what, you still feel suffering, right? The presence of suffering, any kind of existence that is made available is actually the manifestation of this luminous clarity. You get it? However, they are fused with the momentum. They are fused with attachment. And the entire fusing and the entire working of the momentum, that instance, the manifestation is suffering. Everything is like that, you have to feel the pain. Can you understand what I mean or not? When you feel the sand, or you see the texture or you take the stone out, and the texture is so and so, that is actually luminosity also. -
Dear Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Hi Longchen,
No matter what the error you think you made, no matter what your experiences in the moment... nothing, absolutely nothing... changes the simple isness of the present moment.
I hope this helps.
Thanks so much -
Hi longchen, how are you? Feeling better now?Originally posted by longchen:Dear Jon,
Thanks so much -
I am Ok... ThanksOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi longchen, how are you? Feeling better now?
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is close to me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt now... but i didn't know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, don't think that karma does not exist. The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt. -
Oh I see...Originally posted by longchen:I am Ok... Thanks
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is close to me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt now... but i didn't know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, don't think that karma does not exist. The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt.
yeah karma is very real. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
In terms of practical... practice.
What's the difference? One is you are able to perceive the true nature and thus liberated, one is you are ignorant and is in suffering.
Now ultimately the true nature is always Thus, whether you are enlightened or not. But there is a difference (relative truths, which as you know isn't separate from ultimate) between being able to perceive reality and not being able to.
I wasn't saying there is no difference whether you are enlightened, what I mean is ultimately, there is no duality of relative and ultimate reality. However, [b]it requires insights to see it. Even suffering, momentum, and ignorance is equally an expression of our luminous-emptiness Buddha Nature. Awakening is not through any efforts of getting rid of ignorance, it is through just seeing the nature of ignorance. Then there is liberation.
As Thusness says, Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that both ocean and wave are one and the same.[/b]
Like I said earlier it is not a matter of whether you are focusing on what... and there is no 'ultimate' apart from what we are experiencing.
Like what my Taiwanese teacher said -- an enlightened person sees and hears (function of our buddha nature/pure awareness), but he does not form dualistic perception of the seeing and hearing. An ignorant man sees and hears too, he gets attached to seeing and hearing, he forms dualistic perceptions over seeing and hearing.
So relative truths and ultimate truth are not two. Relative truths are expressions of the ultimate reality, and ultimate truth is also not separated from the relative. It is awareness/clarity that matters. If you are aware, then you see everything (relative) as an expression of awareness/ultimate, you can focus on whatever you are doing, everything is just an expression/function of buddha nature. There is no duality between relative and ultimate, if you try to get rid of relative to seek/focus on the ultimate, it cannot be done. Only Clarity is the key.
But an ignorant man attaches to relative truths, forming dualistic concepts, and therefore is not liberated and bonded. He is lost in ignorant thinking. There is no clarity and awareness.
The following is from: How to practise Vipassana (Insight Practice) in Daily Lives?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
A chatlog that my friend sent me He was chatting with our forummer, Thusness.
Ck: john, how to practise vipassana in daily life?
Thusness: just observe every sensation.
Thusness: until one day u are able to experience "emptiness as form".
Thusness: then it becomes effortless.
Thusness: Truthz u cannot imagine the bliss when one clearly experiences that.
Thusness: but there is no point to over stress anything.
Thusness:
Ck: Thusness just observe every sensation... give me an eg?
Thusness: when u breath, u don't have to care what is the right way of breathing, whether u breath hard or soft, smooth or fine...just experience as much clarity as u can...just that experience...regardless of what it is like.
Thusness: same for all other experiences.
Ck: wot abt sound? hows it?
Thusness: when u hear, just the sound...the totality of the sound. There is no how but just to do away with all abitary thoughts. Hear the sound as clear as u can be.
Ck: then wot abt thots?
Ck: thots r v sticky
Thusness: thoughts seldom arise if the practice is correct. If it arises, then not to chase after its meaning. Not to answer urself what it means, not to dwell in 'what'...then u will resort to just the moment of awareness.
Ck: when i try to be just openly aware, i notice that i jump from sense to sense
Ck: like one moment hearing, then touch, etc
Thusness: that is okie.
Thusness: our nature is so.
Ck: wots the rite way to do it
Thusness: don't think that u should concentrate.
Thusness: ur only duty is to sense with as much clarity as possible.
Ck: and for all the sensations, i dun dwell in the 'what'?
Thusness: ur mind is looking for a way, a method
Thusness: but what that is needed is only the clarity.
Thusness: however because our mind is so molded and affect by our habitual propensities, it becomes difficult what that is direct and simple.
Thusness: just stop asking 'how', 'what', 'why'.
Thusness: and submerge into the moment.
Thusness: and experience.
Thusness: i perfer u to describe.
Thusness: not to ask how, what, why, when, where and who.
Thusness: only this is necessary.
Ck: ok
Thusness: if u practice immediately, u will understand.
Thusness: if u entertain who, what, where, when and how, u create more propensities and dull ur own luminosity. -
Originally posted by longchen:
Perhaps you should have stopped at "don't think".
I am Ok... Thanks
It's karmic debt. I should be repaying a karmic debt. I remember who someone that is close to me in this life is during my lifetme as scientist. I should be repaying a debt now... but i didn't know until recently. Now, i understand the cause and effect...
To all forum friends regardless of faith and religion, [b]don't think that karma does not exist. The bad stuffs that is done in a previous life will come back to haunt.[/b]
All our so called problems begin when we start believing our thoughts.
Even the thought that there is a karmic debt to repay.
Can you not see Longchen, that this is simply your own interpretation of what is arising? -
A quote from Thusness:
Why all the fuss? Is No-Self and Emptiness that important? What that is most problematic is how consciousness works and what happened when we identify and get attached. The immense power of identification, I cannot help but to emphasize and re-emphasized. A mere “identification” has such amazing power. Fusing into all aspect of our experiences, mental, spiritual and physical…The weight, the burden and the suffering, like holding on to a charcoal and unwilling to drop. How true is that? Again it is not in words, we have to experience the magical effect of identification and attachment ourselves.
-
Dear Jon,Originally posted by JonLS:Perhaps you should have stopped at "don't think".
All our so called problems begin when we start believing our thoughts.
Even the thought that there is a karmic debt to repay.
Can you not see Longchen, that this is simply your own interpretation of what is arising?
Thanks for the advice
I perfectly understood what you are saying.
No, I am not thinking much about the karmic debt... although it remains an underlying dynamics. In fact, by understanding the karmic forces at work allows me to fight it less. I will have to see whether there are reduction of karmic reactivity after that... it is too early to tell now.
The problem arises after the outward externalisation resulting in impression of subject-object split. From that point onwards, the momentum for further suffering has picked up for eventual action.
That unpleasant incident has strengthen non-duality by pernatrating it into areas where it was initially of subject-object split. The challenge is to integrate non-duality into all aspects of one's life, including conversation and communication with others.
You can say that there are time when passing through a stage of suffering and karmic reaction allows 'me' to see that those areas are not in 'obvious' non-duality.
kind regards -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
i am talking about "focus" at any point in time... do you focus on relative reality... excel in exams; living a happy life; be the best boyfriend you can be... or focus on "ultimate reality"... life is empty essentially... experience the "luminosity"... chanting... living in the monastery...
What's the difference? One is you are able to perceive the true nature and thus liberated, one is you are ignorant and is in suffering.
Now ultimately the true nature is always Thus, whether you are enlightened or not. But there is a difference (relative truths, which as you know isn't separate from ultimate) between being able to perceive reality and not being able to.
I wasn't saying there is no difference whether you are enlightened, what I mean is ultimately, there is no duality of relative and ultimate reality. However, [b]it requires insights to see it. Even suffering, momentum, and ignorance is equally an expression of our luminous-emptiness Buddha Nature. Awakening is not through any efforts of getting rid of ignorance, it is through just seeing the nature of ignorance. Then there is liberation.
As Thusness says, Identification prevents insight into oneness. Seek not a waveless ocean but understand that both ocean and wave are one and the same.[/b] -
Glad to hear that u r ok.Originally posted by longchen:That unpleasant incident has strengthen non-duality by pernatrating it into areas where it was initially of subject-object split. The challenge is to integrate non-duality into all aspects of one's life, including conversation and communication with others.
You can say that there are time when passing through a stage of suffering and karmic reaction allows 'me' to see that those areas are not in 'obvious' non-duality.