Can anyone add to this?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Yes.
i am talking about "focus" at any point in time... do you focus on relative reality... excel in exams; living a happy life; be the best boyfriend you can be...or focus on "ultimate reality"... life is empty essentially... experience the "luminosity"... chanting... living in the monastery...
What is 'ultimate reality'? How is that about 'chanting' and 'living in the monastery'? That is you are seeing dualistically.
Ultimate reality is not apart from daily life/relative. Therefore insight practise is important, and it is not apart from daily living. It is not limited to sitting meditation or any object of focus. Any objects of focus can be the object of insight meditation, and insight meditation penetrates the ultimate reality at that very moment. Clarity/awareness is the key.
p.s. delegating 'formal' sessions to quality meditation is still important. -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
An Eternal Now: Yes.
i am talking about "focus" at any point in time... do you focus on relative reality... excel in exams; living a happy life; be the best boyfriend you can be...or focus on "ultimate reality"... life is empty essentially... experience the "luminosity"... chanting... living in the monastery...
An Eternal Now: What is 'ultimate reality'? How is that about 'chanting' and 'living in the monastery'? That is you are seeing dualistically.
Ultimate reality is not apart from daily life/relative. Therefore insight practise is important, and it is not apart from daily living. It is not limited to sitting meditation or any object of focus. Any objects of focus can be the object of insight meditation, and insight meditation penetrates the ultimate reality at that very moment. Clarity/awareness is the key.
p.s. delegating 'formal' sessions to quality meditation is still important.
AndrewPKYap: Good if you believe that... I was afraid that you turn extremist and "look down" on people living happy, fulfilling, successful lives and say that there are "materialistic, non-spiritual or worse...."
Ultimate Reality/Relative reality. Not one, Not Two
Form is Emptiness...Emptiness is Form
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AndrewPKYap: Good if you believe that... I was afraid that you turn extremist and "look down" on people living happy, fulfilling, successful lives and say that there are "materialistic, non-spiritual or worse...."
I don't look down, but there is always compassion for those who are completely attached in materialism. Because they don't know how to practise. And therefore they can't be liberated. All they are seeking for all their life is eventually going to disappear, and eventually has to be parted with. Such a person can never know transcendental bliss and liberation, and I can honestly say such a life is pretty meaningless... it is like a floating bubble without substance, fruitless goal to chase upon. Basically, he will suffer.
Ultimate Reality/Relative reality. Not one, Not Two
Form is Emptiness...Emptiness is Form
That doesn't mean we can't make an effort to get mundane things. It just means we have to be liberated at all moments. Then we are free to do or get whatever we want, but we are also free to lose whatever we want. Because there is no self, no gain, and no lost... only the flow of conditionality, and a continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss irregardless of one's conditions.
Why The Notion That You Cannot Become What You Already Are is Such Bull@!@*
...Thus, all reality testing reveals that your notion is missing a very fundamental point: while the universal characteristics are always manifesting in all things and at all times, there are those that can perceive this well and those that cannot, and meditative training, conceptual frameworks, techniques, teachers, texts, discussions and the like can all contribute to developing the internal skills and wiring to be able to fully realize what is possible, as thousands of practitioners throughout the ages have noticed....
Therefore practise is very important, but practise does not mean going to caves or chanting all day.
(from the same topic above)
...The Buddha addressed it well, particularly in a series of Suttas in the Middle Length Discourses, #131-135, titled “One Fortunate Attachment” and variations on that title, and makes similar points in a great many other places.
I quote from the poem that is repeated in those suttas, using the translation of Bhikkhus Ñanamoli and Bodhi, which I highly recommend:
“Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.
Instead, with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?
No bargain with mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has one fortunate attachment.”
The problem with goal oriented effort in insight meditation arises only when it is effort to get to something that is not here, rather than realizing that what must be understood is right here. There is absolutely no conceptual or practical conflict with trying to be with reality as it is and know it deeply.
Look into the traditions that seem to advocate doing something else, and you will paradoxically see that the Zen Masters or other teachers in those traditions did a ton of hardcore practice (at least the good ones did), just like nearly everyone else who got some understanding, and they advocate that practitioners do the same.
Beware of people who say purely, “There is nothing to get, nothing to do, no attainment to understand, nothing to work on, nothing to achieve, nothing to develop,” and don’t balance that with a hefty dose of, “And this is how you understand that deeply for yourself in a way that cuts beyond concepts and leads to all-pervading and complete direct experience that makes some beneficial difference.” -
I am not talking about "those who are completely attached in materialism" but I am talking about how Buddhism can in fact enable people to lead very successful lives... success beyond their wildest imaginations. From my perspective, it would seem that Buddhist "teachers" don't even realize that.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I don't look down, but there is always compassion for those who are completely attached in materialism.
I have yet to read or hear a Buddhist teacher say... "OK if you understand Buddhist teaching well, you can be wildly successful and this is why and here, this is how to do it".
I "blame" it on focusing too much on "Form is Emptiness" and "Focusing on ULTIMATE REALITY" -
That's possible, but don't mix spiritual training with materialism. That's like saying mastering arts and psychology. If you master arts, you can also master psychology, but you can't use art knowledge to deal with psychology.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:I am not talking about "those who are completely attached in materialism" but I am talking about how Buddhism can in fact enable people to lead very successful lives... success beyond their wildest imaginations. From my perspective, it would seem that Buddhist "teachers" don't even realize that.
I have yet to read or hear a Buddhist teacher say... "OK if you understand Buddhist teaching well, you can be wildly successful and this is why and here, this is how to do it".
I "blame" it on focusing too much on "Form is Emptiness" and "Focusing on ULTIMATE REALITY"
Similarly we can be damn successful in both spiritual insights as well as mundane life, but they don't mix. I mean of course with spiritual training you become wiser, more focused, etc, but beyond that I can't really imagine how spiritual training can make you successful.
Please, if you want to be successful, do something relevant to make yourself successful (plan hard, work hard, etc). If you want to get enlightened, do spiritual training. You can do them both at the same time but just don't get confused. -
"spiritual training with materialism" hmmmm.... somebody is dualisticOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:That's possible, but don't mix spiritual training with materialism. That's like saying mastering arts and psychology. If you master arts, you can also master psychology, but you can't use art knowledge to deal with psychology.
Similarly we can be damn successful in both spiritual insights as well as mundane life, but they don't mix. I mean of course with spiritual training you become wiser, more focused, etc, but beyond that I can't really imagine how spiritual training can make you successful.
Please, if you want to be successful, do something relevant to make yourself successful (plan hard, work hard, etc). If you want to get enlightened, do spiritual training. You can do them both at the same time but just don't get confused. -
We have to discern what is spiritual training and materialism in the relative sense because transrational does not replace rationality.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:"spiritual training with materialism" hmmmm.... somebody is dualistic
That's like you saying that being translogical does not replace logic. Only illogical people will say something like.... don't bother about spirituality, go make a fortune, because making a fortune = ultimate reality. Or.. just meditate, remain in the Now, be Aware, and all the money will come to you. Non-duality is not like that.
Though at the same time we do not see them as ultimately separate, we are not identified with both spirituality or materialism. And that is non-dual... it's like seeing everything as a whole process (of life) and not dividing them into pieces, seeing them as absolutely separate. -
Thanks ThusnessOriginally posted by Thusness:Glad to hear that u r ok.
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Oh ya almost forgot to ask... the photography website is by you? You're very pro at photography one?Originally posted by longchen:Thanks Thusness -
Not very pro... just trying to be proOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Oh ya almost forgot to ask... the photography website is by you? You're very pro at photography one?
But i like photography and of course design... too.
Also I hope somebody buy something from the website -
Ooh icic... coolOriginally posted by longchen:Not very pro... just trying to be pro
But i like photography and of course design... too.
Also I hope somebody buy something from the website -
Longchen wrote:The challenge is to integrate non-duality into all aspects of one's life, including conversation and communication with others.
This reminded me of something Adyashanti wrote:The Heart of Relationship By Adyashanti
Awakening to the truth of perfect Unity, means to awaken from the dream of a personal self and personal others to the realization that there is no other. Many spiritual seekers have had glimpses of the absolute unity of all existence, but few are capable of or willing to live up to the many challenging implications inherent in that revelation. The revelation of perfect unity, that there is no other, is a realization of the ultimate impersonality of all that seems to be so very personal.
Applying this realization to the arena of personal relationships is something that most seekers find extremely challenging, and is the number one reason why so many seekers never come completely to rest in the freedom of the Self Absolute. Inherent in the revelation of perfect unity is the realization that there is no personal me, no personal other, and therefore no personal relationships. Coming to terms with the challenging implications of this stunning realization is something that few people are willing to do. Because realizing the true impersonality of all that seems so personal, challenges every aspect of the illusion of a separate, personal self. It challenges the entire structure of personal relationships which are born of needs, wants, and expectations.
It is in the arena of personal relationships that the illusion of a separate self clings most tenaciously and insidiously. Indeed, there is nothing that derails more spiritual seekers than the grasping at and attaching to personal relationships. The revelation of perfect unity reveals the true impersonality of all relationships. The ego always interprets "impersonal" as meaning cold, distant, and aloof. However, "impersonal" simply means not personal, or void of a separate me and a separate you. The mind cannot comprehend of a relationship without separate entities. Much as a character in a dream cannot comprehend that all other dream characters are simply manifestations of the same dreamer. Yet when the dreamer awakens, he instantly comprehends that the entire dream, and all the characters in it, were none other than projections of his own self. In the dream there is the appearance of separate, personal entities in relationship, but upon awakening one comprehends the impersonal (non-separate) Self that is the source of all appearances.
To deeply inquire into the question "Who is another?" can lead to the direct experience that the other is one's own Self - that in fact there is no other. However, I have seen that for most seekers, even this direct experiential revelation is not enough to transform the painfully personal ways they relate. To come to this profound transformation requires a very deep investigation into the implications inherent within the experiential revelation that there is no other. It is in the daily living of these implications that most seekers fail. Why? Because, fundamentally, most people want to remain separate and in control. Simply put, most people want to keep dreaming that they are special, unique, and separate, more than they want to wake up to the perfect unity of an Unknown which leaves no room from any separation from the whole.
There is a powerful tendency in most spiritual seekers to avoid probing deeply into the implications inherent within profound spiritual experience and revelation, because these implications are always threatening to the sense of a separate self, or ego. It is the implications inherent within profound spiritual revelation that demand the transformation of the apparent individual.
Inherent within the revelation of perfect unity is the realization that there is no other. The implications of this realization reveal that in order to manifest that unity in the relative world, one must renounce the dream of being a separate self seeking to obtain anything through relationship with another. Indeed, personal relationship appears to happen in the relative world, but in reality, all appearances simply arise as temporary manifestations of a unified whole. In the relative world these appearances are in relationship, but not as separate entities. Rather, they are the play of the one Self projecting itself as apparent entities in relationship to one another.
As long as you identify yourself with the projection of separateness, you will continue to deny that you are the Source of all projections. When you truly and absolutely awaken to this fact, and comprehend the overwhelming implications inherent within this awakening, you will continually experience that all apparently personal relationships are in truth nothing other than the play of your Self.
To realize that the personal me is an illusion born of false identification with the body, thoughts, and emotions, brings a profound sense of freedom. This is fundamentally the realization of emptiness, of what you are not. But contained within the realization of emptiness (formlessness) is also the realization of what you ARE. In the most absolute sense you ARE this conscious emptiness which is the source of all appearances (existence). But you are the appearance as well. Not just one part of the appearance called "me", but all of it, the entire whole.
This is the challenge, to let your view get this vast. To let your view get so vast that your identity disappears. Then you realize that there is no other, and there is nothing personal going on. Contrary to the way the ego will view such a realization, it is in reality the birth of true love. A love which is free of all boundaries and fear. To the ego such uncontaminated love is unbearable in its intimacy. When there is no clear separating boundaries and nothing to gain the ego becomes disinterested, angry, or frightened. In a love where there is no other there is nowhere to hide, no one to control, and nothing to gain. It is the coming together of appearances in the beautiful dance of the SELF called Love.
To the seeker who is sincere, an experiential glimpse of this possibility is not enough. If you are sincere you will find it within yourself to go far beyond any glimpse. You will find within your Self the courage to let go of the known and dive deeply into the Unknown heart of a mystery that calls you only to itself. -
hmmmmm no wonder Buddhism is so powerful when you "get it" because people cannot get it, do not realize the truth, reality, for even a well read practitioner like you find it hard to get it.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:We have to discern what is spiritual training and materialism in the relative sense because transrational does not replace rationality.
That's like you saying that being translogical does not replace logic. Only illogical people will say something like.... don't bother about spirituality, go make a fortune, because making a fortune = ultimate reality. Or.. just meditate, remain in the Now, be Aware, and all the money will come to you. Non-duality is not like that.
Though at the same time we do not see them as ultimately separate, we are not identified with both spirituality or materialism. And that is non-dual... it's like seeing everything as a whole process (of life) and not dividing them into pieces, seeing them as absolutely separate.
When we talk or write and think, we speak of Logic and Translogic but in REALITY there is no such thing as logic and translogic (they exist only in people's head) , just as there is no such thing as Samsara and Nirana (exist only in people's head); "spiritual and materialism" (exist only in people's head). -
BTW I just read an article today that reminded me of your sgForums profile (June 2007 newsletter of Wayne Liquorman):Originally posted by longchen:Not very pro... just trying to be pro
But i like photography and of course design... too.
Also I hope somebody buy something from the website
Username: longchen
Job: living
Interests: breathing
Here's the article:
Message from Wayne
Hello my loves,
I was recently asked, "What is your philosophy of life?"
My immediate response was - "Breathe"
The questioner assumed from this response that I had misunderstood her
question so she repeated it a little differently - "What do you think
is the best way to live?" she asked.
"BREATHE!" I repeated.
Everyone laughed but I was not making a joke. I have no interest in
philosophy or spirituality as an intellectual chess game. To my mind, a
philosophy of life must be completely practical - it must have meaning in
the office and the bedroom, the church and the night club. Thus, the
Living Teaching is pointing to this most basic of human functions: to
live is to breathe. But everyone knows they are not the creators or even
the masters of their breath; it literally has a life of its own. And
since the breath is (except for certain yogic practices) immune from the
claims of the ego, it is generally of little interest. It is JUST
there.
The Living Teaching proposes a look with fresh eyes at this breath that
is living us, animating us, giving us the power of choice, thought,
feeling and action. This breath is an open invitation to the reality of
What IS...perhaps you will find that this is the moment you walk
through.
With much love,
Wayne