36 Kinds of Ghosts (translation by Sinweiy) continued...
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With regards to the expired thread: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=158739
Stumbled upon it. Great thread! Sorry for digging it up. But it cleared some of my questions on this subject.
Initially thought that the ghost realm only consists of hungry ghosts who're unable to take in food and suffer from hunger and thirst etc.
The common belief is that the ghosts are souls from their previous lives, but since according a thread explaining the difference in rebirth and reincarnation, there is no soul, no self and no attachment. So how do we from a buddhist point of view explain the presence of deceased loved ones appearing etc? How do we define this being?
Some of the ghosts defined seems bent on creating harm than suffering, are they considered to be in the asuras realm?
Thanks for advice.
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Now when we say 'no self', 'no soul', what we're talking about is that in terms of ultimate reality there is no self or a soul-entity that can be found. If you practise Buddhism, you will eventually reach this realisation from direct intuitive experience, you will see for yourself that there is no self separate self to be found, and then you attain enlightenment. This is not a theory, and there are many people today including many in this forum who have become enlightened to the reality of no self... and we all can.Originally posted by monkeywarriors:With regards to the expired thread: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=158739
Stumbled upon it. Great thread! Sorry for digging it up. But it cleared some of my questions on this subject.
Initially thought that the ghost realm only consists of hungry ghosts who're unable to take in food and suffer from hunger and thirst etc.
The common belief is that the ghosts are souls from their previous lives, but since according a thread explaining the difference in rebirth and reincarnation, there is no soul, no self and no attachment. So how do we from a buddhist point of view explain the presence of deceased loved ones appearing etc? How do we define this being?
Some of the ghosts defined seems bent on creating harm than suffering, are they considered to be in the asuras realm?
Thanks for advice.
Consciousness or self is not an agent, or entity that lives in our body, nor is it a permanent entity that moves from one lifetime to the next like some Hindus or other religions think. It is only a momentary self that is reborn -- Self1, Self2, Self3, not a permanent 'soul'. Rebirth happens not only lifetime to lifetime, but every moment in our lives as long as we have not attained enlightenment.
BUT, conventionally, in terms of relative truths, we still speak of 'you and me', 'him or her', we still recognise people by their appearance. In terms of relative truths for example, I met you 5 years ago, but now I saw you again and I know that you are monkeywarrior -- I know you are the same person, because I recognise your looks. This is relative truths, concepts, perceptions, names.
But in terms of ultimate reality there is no 'monkeywarrior' that is the same person for 5 years... it's like asking are you the same person since you were a baby? Actually there is really no permanent self, only a momentary Self1, Self2, Self3, so you are neither the same you nor different -- because a 'self' with inherent existence cannot be found in the first place. It is empty.
Back to rebirth. So since 'No Self' is about ultimate reality, it does not mean that there is 'No Self' therefore our consciousness cannot continue after death. It continues but not as a fixed entity -- just like Self1, Self2, Self3, etc. There is no inherently existing self, but a momentary self that is utterly empty. It does not mean just because there is no self to be found, a person cannot fall into the ghost realm.
When we die, our consciousness undergoes stages of bardo, which is an intermediate state of existence between death and rebirth. Bardo can last up to 49 days. There are exceptions of those who do not stay in bardo for long -- for example, those with very good karma may ascend to celestial realms/heaven almost immediately after death, while those with very bad karma may descend to the hell realms almost immediately after death. Those whose conditions are there and chants Amitabha, and sincerely wish to be reborn in Pure Land, Amitabha can bring them to his Pure Land, also almost immediately. And then there are those who at the time of death, his consciousness dissolves into the infinite Clear Light of our Buddha Nature, and attains Nirvana, a state of liberation from Samsara. This is truly possible if we practise the Dharma well, so we must all start practising until we can overcome rebirth at death. Such a person no longer needs to be reborn in the 6 realms, but when the condition arises (i.e compassion; bodhisattva vows) he takes birth in the 6 realms to lead sentient beings to enlightenment as a Bodhisattva. Such a person is not reborn due to the power of Karma, but due to the power of Vows, and he will appear in the world not as an ordinary unenlightened sentient being but as a Bodhisattva.
But let's talk about the case of most people. For most people, the dead person's consciousness eventually leaves the body and takes form of an Antarabhava, or Zhong Ying Sheng, which is an intermediate body. You can call this 'soul' or whatever you like, no problem, but you must understand that this 'soul' is also empty in the ultimate sense -- but relatively speaking we can say that there is an intermediate body, just as relatively speaking we can say that we have a physical self/body right now.
Within this 49 days, the Antarabhava seeks for conditions for rebirth. It happens that every 7 days there will be a light that appears to the consciousness and serves as an opportunity for rebirth, those whose karma syncs will be reborn to the various 6 realms of existence according to their karma. During this period, there are many people who report visions of their dead relatives coming to their dreams. This is a very common phenomena. During the 49 days we should also invite venerables to speak the dharma, about the teachings of impermanence, suffering and emptiness to the antarabhava so that he can quickly let go of the life he passed away from (things such as his family, belongings, etc etc), be reborn quickly and not dwell longer.
There are those who after 49 days fail to take rebirth, mainly due to their attachment. Like they are very attached to their wife, or to anything. Then they will turn into a ghost after 49 days because all opportunites for rebirth are gone. Even if they do not have bad karma, they have to dwell in the ghost realm for some period of time in a state of misery though they probably dont have to go through the torment of those ghosts who fall into that realm due to bad karma. They'll be those 'wandering ghosts' who dwell in the place of his attachment. If your loved ones keep appearing to you after 49 days, then the likelihood is that he has become too attached and turned into a ghost. In such cases you should ask a venerable for advise, the ghost should be told to let go of their attachment, and merits should be dedicated so that he can be reborn in the 3 higher realms as quickly as possible and not dwell any longer.
Next, Asuras and Ghost realm are different. Asuras belong to one of the 3 realms. They also have good karma... but they like to fight and are violent.. so those devas/celestial beings that love to fight eventually descend into the Asuras realm.
Ghost is a different realm... there are many evil ghosts (and also good ones) but they are not the same as asuras. -
Just to correct -- we must practise not only until we can overcome birth and death at death, but we must overcome birth and death here and now, while we are alive. When death comes it is too late.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And then there are those who at the time of death, his consciousness dissolves into the infinite Clear Light of our Buddha Nature, and attains Nirvana, a state of liberation from Samsara. This is truly possible if we practise the Dharma well, so we must all start practising until we can overcome rebirth at death. Such a person no longer needs to be reborn in the 6 realms, but when the condition arises (i.e compassion; bodhisattva vows) he takes birth in the 6 realms to lead sentient beings to enlightenment as a Bodhisattva. Such a person is not reborn due to the power of Karma, but due to the power of Vows, and he will appear in the world not as an ordinary unenlightened sentient being but as a Bodhisattva.
Please read: Returning to the Quintessence of Buddha regarding this.
Also, I have scanned 3 short pages describing the Antarabhava (intermediate body) and what happens after death in details: The Intermediate Stage After Death (article) -
when say realms, try to see beyond, don't imagine they are literally aparts in different location and cannot live together or something.
asuras are located in all the 5 realms except for hell realms. just like animals are located in all the 6 realms. they can intermix wan, eventhough they are of different "realms".
would also be good to see the realms as different mentalities.
like hell is pain, fear.
ghost is greed, also involve fear, fear of losing.
animal is folly.
asura is jealousy, hatred. even like if you find that your fellow dharma friend is doing more than you, you feel jealous that they create more good deeds than you. be careful, as it can be a sign of asura.
heaven is enjoyment.
human is doubt.
so can you have jealousy(asura) when you are in pain(hell)?
and since ignorance is the root of everything, animal is in all realms.
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Asuras belong to the 3 higher realms, I mean.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Next, Asuras and Ghost realm are different. Asuras belong to one of the 3 realms. They also have good karma... but they like to fight and are violent.. so those devas/celestial beings that love to fight eventually descend into the Asuras realm. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
i sudden had this taught, how envy(asuara) can be good(higher realms).
Asuras belong to the 3 higher realms, I mean.
i had this thought, envy is good when you see Buddha, you want to follow His footstep.
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I think admiration is the good side of envy, though jealousy is a negative side of the mind state.Originally posted by sinweiy:i sudden had this taught, how envy(asuara) can be good(higher realms).
i had this thought, envy is good when you see Buddha, you want to follow His footstep.
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But anyway their jealousy is the cause of their downfall.. if the Asuras can get rid of that habit of wanting to fight, then they can easily be reborn as a Deva. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
i think admiration, envy or jealous is one thing (of the mind)..it only become wholesome when your admiration/envy is toward someone wholesome like Buddha/bodhisatvva and so you strive to follow the footsteps until you accumulate positive merits. mind state become more substances per se.
I think admiration is the good side of envy, though jealousy is a negative side of the mind state.
But anyway their jealousy is the cause of their downfall.. if the Asuras can get rid of that habit of wanting to fight, then they can easily be reborn as a Deva
but if admiration/envy someone unwholesome, then too bad liao.
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http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/articles/cosmos1.htm
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/articles/cosmos3.htm#c14
There are 52 mental currents (or mental states) in the mind. The first one is the evolution current derived from previous life. This current produces additional six currents and together they are called the seven common currents, These seven common currents in turn produce 6 supplement currents. All these 13 currents together produce the 17 reflective waves or thought moments, These reflective waves, being influenced by consciousness derived from the sense organs produced the 14 defilements and 25 purities. (See Chart 12& Chart 13)
The inter-reaction of defilements and purities are indicated in the following manner:....
Chart 13
LIST OF MENTAL STATES
(A) Common Currents:
(1) Contact (Phasa)
(2) Feeling (Vedana)
(3) Perception (Sanna)
(5) Concentraction (Ekaggata)
(6) Psychic Life (Jivitindriya)
(7) Attention (Manasikara)
(B ) Supplement Currents:
(1) Deliberation (Vitaka)
(2) Examination (Vicara)
(3) Determination (Adhimokka)
(4) Effort (Viriya)
(5) Pleasure (Piti)
(6) Consent (Chana)
(C) Defilements:
(1) Ignorance (Moha)
(2) Shamelessness to evil actions (Ahirika)
(3) Fearlessness to evil actions (Anotappa,
(4) Restlenness (Uddhacca)
(5) Greed (Lobha)
(6) Wrong perception (Ditthi)
(7) Conceit (Mana)
(8 ) Hatred (Dosa)
(9) Jealousy (Issa) [properly the mental current of envy/admire belongs to this one also.]
(10) Stinginess (Macchariya)
(11) Remorse (Kukucca)
(12) Sloth (Thina)
(13) Torpor (Middha)
(14) Indecision(Vicikiccha)
(D) Purities:
(1) Confidence (Sadda)
(2) Mindfulness (Sati)
(3) Shamefulness to evil actions (Hiri)
(4) Fearfulness to evil actions (Otappa)
(5) Loving charity (Alobha)
(6) Loving sympathy (Adosa)
(7) Equanimity (Tatramajjhata)
(8 ) Tranquility to body action (Kayapassaddhi)
(9) Tranquility to mental action (Cittapassadhi)
(10) Lightness of mental properties (Kayalahuta)
(11) Lightness of the mind (Citta Lahuta)
(12) Softness of mental properties (Kaya muduta.)
(13) Softnesss of the mind (citta muduta)
(14) Fitness of mental properties (Kaya kammannata)
(I5) Fitness of mind (citta kammannata)
(16) Proficiency of mental properties (Kaya pagunnata)
(17) Proficiency of the mind (Citta pagunnata)
(I8 ) Physical uprightness (Kayujjukata)
(19) Mental uprightness (Cittujjukata)
(20) Correct speech (Samma Vaca)
(21) Correct industry (Samma Kammanta)
(22) Correct livelihood (Samma Ajiva)
(23) Universal compassion (Karuna)
(24) Sympathetic Joy (Mudita)
(25) Wisdom (Panna)
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Originally posted by sinweiy:
Thanks for sharing!
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/articles/cosmos1.htm
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/articles/cosmos3.htm#c14
There are 52 mental currents (or mental states) in the mind. The first one is the evolution current derived from previous life. This current produces additional six currents and together they are called the seven common currents, These seven common currents in turn produce 6 supplement currents. All these 13 currents together produce the 17 reflective waves or thought moments, These reflective waves, being influenced by consciousness derived from the sense organs produced the 14 defilements and 25 purities. (See Chart 12& Chart 13)
The inter-reaction of defilements and purities are indicated in the following manner:....
Chart 13
LIST OF MENTAL STATES
(A) Common Currents:
(1) Contact (Phasa)
(2) Feeling (Vedana)
(3) Perception (Sanna)
(5) Concentraction (Ekaggata)
(6) Psychic Life (Jivitindriya)
(7) Attention (Manasikara)
(B ) Supplement Currents:
(1) Deliberation (Vitaka)
(2) Examination (Vicara)
(3) Determination (Adhimokka)
(4) Effort (Viriya)
(5) Pleasure (Piti)
(6) Consent (Chana)
(C) Defilements:
(1) Ignorance (Moha)
(2) Shamelessness to evil actions (Ahirika)
(3) Fearlessness to evil actions (Anotappa,
(4) Restlenness (Uddhacca)
(5) Greed (Lobha)
(6) Wrong perception (Ditthi)
(7) Conceit (Mana)
(8 ) Hatred (Dosa)
[b](9) Jealousy (Issa) [properly the mental current of envy/admire belongs to this one also.]
(10) Stinginess (Macchariya)
(11) Remorse (Kukucca)
(12) Sloth (Thina)
(13) Torpor (Middha)
(14) Indecision(Vicikiccha)
(D) Purities:
(1) Confidence (Sadda)
(2) Mindfulness (Sati)
(3) Shamefulness to evil actions (Hiri)
(4) Fearfulness to evil actions (Otappa)
(5) Loving charity (Alobha)
(6) Loving sympathy (Adosa)
(7) Equanimity (Tatramajjhata)
(8 ) Tranquility to body action (Kayapassaddhi)
(9) Tranquility to mental action (Cittapassadhi)
(10) Lightness of mental properties (Kayalahuta)
(11) Lightness of the mind (Citta Lahuta)
(12) Softness of mental properties (Kaya muduta.)
(13) Softnesss of the mind (citta muduta)
(14) Fitness of mental properties (Kaya kammannata)
(I5) Fitness of mind (citta kammannata)
(16) Proficiency of mental properties (Kaya pagunnata)
(17) Proficiency of the mind (Citta pagunnata)
(I8 ) Physical uprightness (Kayujjukata)
(19) Mental uprightness (Cittujjukata)
(20) Correct speech (Samma Vaca)
(21) Correct industry (Samma Kammanta)
(22) Correct livelihood (Samma Ajiva)
(23) Universal compassion (Karuna)
(24) Sympathetic Joy (Mudita)
(25) Wisdom (Panna)
/\
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oh, wait...kind of think of it, the mental current of admiring involve some liking or attachment which can be part of #(5) Greed (Lobha), while jealousy involve dislike which can be part of #(8 ) Hatred (Dosa).
envy however is a bit of both like and dislike.
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Thanks for all the info and links. Truly appreciated! One more question, since those in the ghost realms are bound to suffer, why the desire to commit evil and causing harm to other beings? Eg:
19. Underground ghost: dwell in dark damp caves, gradually can cause epidemic, plague.
25. Sea-shore residing ghost: live by the bank of sea, waiting for a body of substitute.
So to commit heinous deeds equate to suffering?
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This antarabhava is also the functioning of our 7th consciousness, the consciousness of an individual, separate self. It is also responsible for dreaming while we are asleep.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:But let's talk about the case of most people. For most people, the dead person's consciousness eventually leaves the body and takes form of an Antarabhava, or Zhong Ying Sheng, which is an intermediate body. You can call this 'soul' or whatever you like, no problem, but you must understand that this 'soul' is also empty in the ultimate sense -- but relatively speaking we can say that there is an intermediate body, just as relatively speaking we can say that we have a physical self/body right now.
http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no1a.htm
...All of us have a “transient-invisible-body (Antara-bhava)”. While we are alive this is called “mind-consciousness”. It is commonly referred to as the “soul”. When we are asleep, this mind-consciousness does not sleep. Instead, it combs through the past records that are stored in the eighth mind-consciousness (All of us have eight consciousness. In addition to the six sense-consciousness, namely, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind, there are the seventh [Klista-mano-vijnana] and eighth [Alaya-vijnana] mind-consciousness. The eighth consciousness is the planting field of the mind. The seeds of all our encounters, both virtuous and evil, of our aeons of many past lives are planted here. The seventh mind-consciousness gives rise to the “transient-invisible-body”.) When a person is dead, his six sense-organs, namely, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind stop functioning. His sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch and perception also cease to function. Thereafter, the seventh mind-consciousness no longer resides in the body. It leaves the body and begins to search for the right conditions for rebirth to the next life. (At this stage, the mind-consciousness is called a “transient-invisible-body”. It is an intermediate existence between death and rebirth to the next life.) The right conditions of rebirth are found within a period of 49 days, on each of the seven cycles of the seventh day after the person has passed away ( i.e. 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, … 49th day)... -
Originally posted by monkeywarriors:
it is a very strong form of attachment or habit which they had not much control over. sometimes, even if they know it's wrong, but they cannot help it. it's habitual already.
Thanks for all the info and links. Truly appreciated! One more question, since those in the ghost realms are bound to suffer, why the desire to commit evil and causing harm to other beings? Eg:
19. Underground ghost: dwell in dark damp caves, gradually can cause epidemic, plague.
25. Sea-shore residing ghost: live by the bank of sea, waiting for a body of substitute.
So to commit heinous deeds equate to suffering? [/b]
i think for #19, it's just the place that they love to dwell is very dirty that it cause diseases to spread. it's not the ghosts' fault.
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As sinweiy said it could be their habits. It can also just be the same reason why a person wants to do robbery, too much evil thinking, craving, and so son.Originally posted by monkeywarriors:Thanks for all the info and links. Truly appreciated! One more question, since those in the ghost realms are bound to suffer, why the desire to commit evil and causing harm to other beings? Eg:
19. Underground ghost: dwell in dark damp caves, gradually can cause epidemic, plague.
25. Sea-shore residing ghost: live by the bank of sea, waiting for a body of substitute.
So to commit heinous deeds equate to suffering?
Or it could be unintentional (maybe epidemic may be unintentionally set off?)
Or, they could just be conditioned in a way that they need to rely on killing, just as lions and tigers are conditioned to kill other animals for food.
Many reasons..