I do not truly exist...
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Now when we say 'no self', 'no soul', what we're talking about is that in terms of ultimate reality there is no self or a soul-entity that can be found. If you practise Buddhism, you will eventually reach this realisation from direct intuitive experience, you will see for yourself that there is no self separate self to be found, and then you attain enlightenment. This is not a theory, and there are many people today including many in this forum who have become enlightened to the reality of no self... and we all can.
Quote made by AEN in another thread. I'm posting this in a new thread because my comments is another topic altogether.
Consciousness or self is not an agent, or entity that lives in our body, nor is it a permanent entity that moves from one lifetime to the next like some Hindus or other religions think. It is only a momentary self that is reborn -- Self1, Self2, Self3, not a permanent 'soul'. Rebirth happens not only lifetime to lifetime, but every moment in our lives as long as we have not attained enlightenment.
BUT, conventionally, in terms of relative truths, we still speak of 'you and me', 'him or her', we still recognise people by their appearance. In terms of relative truths for example, I met you 5 years ago, but now I saw you again and I know that you are monkeywarrior -- I know you are the same person, because I recognise your looks. This is relative truths, concepts, perceptions, names.
But in terms of ultimate reality there is no 'monkeywarrior' that is the same person for 5 years... it's like asking are you the same person since you were a baby? Actually there is really no permanent self, only a momentary Self1, Self2, Self3, so you are neither the same you nor different -- because a 'self' with inherent existence cannot be found in the first place. It is empty.
I first heard the concept of 'no true self' when I was 16 (two years ago) during my dharma lessons (I'm not a Buddhist, but I still attend dharma lessons, even though my knowledge of Buddhism is very basic).
When I first heard this teaching, I was utterly shocked. First, this concept makes obvious and perfect sense to me, but I was surprised that I did not realise this all along. But most importantly, I was shocked at the implication this concept might bring.
It made me 'realised' that there seems to be no purpose to our existence at all. Life seems to be a big joke!
I'm unable to put down what I felt or 'realised' in words or speeches. But simply put, 'we' are in constant state of change. The 'I' when I first started writting this sentence is different from the 'I' as I put a full-stop to this sentence. 'I' do not exist the way I thought 'I' had existed.
So therefore, my existence is a complete joke.
The Buddha taught that there is no point in pondering upon the purpose of our existence. Instead, we should focus on more practical things such as how to end our existence...
...so, I exist just so that I can end my suffering and realise that I actually don't truly exist in the first place?
Some sects of Buddhism believes that one's mind cease to exist after entering Nivana (i.e. the Buddha's mind cease after entering Nivana). Other religion then began to ask why would Buddhist seek to practise the Dharma and 'destroy' themselves? Buddhists answered by stating that our mind don't exist in the first place.
But well, since I don't truly exist in the first place, what's the point of practising the Dharma? What's the purpose of doing anything at all? Everything and anything that I do is of no significance since my actions and my influences is...insignificant. It is of no significant impact on anyone or anything at all. (like I mentioned, I don't know how to put what I'm thinking in words, but it's something like that)
As I look at the sky and the stars during the night time out of my flat, I truly feel my insignificance (sound very cliche, but well...). Sometime, it brings me comfort in knowing that the problems I face is not that big after all. But at the same time, I feel like I'm a big joke. I can just jump out of my flat (no, I'm not having sucidal thoughts) and I'll just get reborn again and again and again as I had in all my previous lives.
Kinda lame isn't it? -
You have misunderstandings on the teaching of No-Self, nevertheless v good questions that may represent what many people misunderstood as well.
Originally posted by mahawarrior:
No, No Self does not mean no purpose in life. Because usually 'purpose' are relative, while 'No Self' is talking about the ultimate reality. Ultimate reality does not cancel out relative truths, just as 'No Self' does not mean I can no longer call you mahawarrior.
Quote made by AEN in another thread. I'm posting this in a new thread because my comments is another topic altogether.
I first heard the concept of 'no true self' when I was 16 (two years ago) during my dharma lessons (I'm not a Buddhist, but I still attend dharma lessons, even though my knowledge of Buddhism is very basic).
When I first heard this teaching, I was utterly shocked. First, this concept makes obvious and perfect sense to me, but I was surprised that I did not realise this all along. But most importantly, I was shocked at the implication this concept might bring.
It made me 'realised' that there seems to be no purpose to our existence at all. Life seems to be a big joke!
Anyway, you see, everyone's purpose of life differs from each other. For some people his purpose of life is to help the poor. For some people, it is to benefit others through inventing certain things... I don't know. But the meaning or purpose of life is very diverse and depends on how you see it. Seeing ultimate reality does not mean you can no longer have a purpose in life, it just means your perception of what reality is changes. Enlightenment is just enlightenment to the ultimate reality, it is not about behavior modification -- the way we engage in the relative world may remain the same, or it may change for the better.
But I think ultimately the 'purpose' of life is to realise your true nature.
Why? Because whatever achievements on the level of form is impermanent. They are good, but only wisdom is everlasting. I think it is meaningful for everyone to live a life that is completely blissful. Through dharma we can attain liberation and the highest bliss.
It is inevitable infact to become enlightened, since everyone already has the innate and brightly shining Buddha Nature already complete, though obscured by our dualistic thinking, just like dark clouds osbcuring the sun. The dualistic thinking that obscures our Buddha Nature is what causes all the suffering. Buddha Nature is pure awareness, all our 6 senses are the functions and expression of this pure awareness. But we constantly miss it due to our ignorance.
But since our Buddha Nature is always here, it is present even when we are in hell or in heaven, it is only a matter of time before we realise it... for some people it takes many many lifetimes. But undoubtedly one day they will come to realise it.I'm unable to put down what I felt or 'realised' in words or speeches. But simply put, 'we' are in constant state of change. The 'I' when I first started writting this sentence is different from the 'I' as I put a full-stop to this sentence. 'I' do not exist the way I thought 'I' had existed.
The 'I' when I first started writting this sentence is different from the 'I' as I put a full-stop to this sentence. -- actually, neither the same nor different, moment to moment thoughts and feelings just arises spontaneously as it is. It is empty of any inherent existence, therefore you can neither say they are same nor different.
Also, when we say 'empty of inherent existence', we must not mistaken it to be 'non-existence'. Emptiness is empty of inherent existence, non-existence, both existence and non existence, neither existence and non existence. Since a 'self' cannot be found in the first place, how can there be a 'self' that exists, and how can there be a 'self' that does not exist? Reality is just presenting itself spontaneously, naturally, moment to moment... at no point can we ever point to a discrete Self that is inherently existing.
So, when you said that the 'I' that started writing and the 'I' that stopped writing are different, you are already seeing Self as a separate entity, as a doer, with inherent existence. In reality, 'Self' is utterly empty.... it is ungraspable... so there is no self that is 'different' or 'same' -- Emptiness is Not-One, Not-Two. Only moment to moment reality arising out of condition.
It is so subtle that the mind can never grasp it (because it's empty) -- the moment you try to give meaning to it, the moment you have a 'subject' (self), and you look back and interprete it to be your 'past self', you have already missed it... Reality cannot be grasped through chaining, comparing and linking and logical analysis. Reality merely manifest by itself spontaneously, moment to moment, without a doer or agent. For example, thoughts are not 'caused' by a thinker, thought itself arises spontaneously, there is no thinker. (For a very comprehensive explanation on this subject, please read the great article 'Non-Dual Thinking' at http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=247058)
As a summary, if we were to think that there is an 'I' that has changed or undergone change, then one is still reacting to karmic momentum. In reality, there is no changing 'things' or changing 'self', only timeless Change.
Therefore Buddha taught us to be bare in attention, and directly experience the arising and ceasing as it is, and not to entertain conceptual interpretation, linking, chaining and analysis in practise... not to impose our own layer of perception and meaning on moment to moment reality... and not to see things in terms of 'entities'.
Our analytical framework simply cannot understand reality as it is -- it works through chaining, linking, it works through the basic assumption that there is an inherent existence of 'things' and 'self'.
Therefore the real way to understand reality is not through conceptualising, but by directly plunging into moment to moment experience with naked awareness.So therefore, my existence is a complete joke.
This is your interpretation of it... in actuality it is far more simpler. Life is not a joke, it is just what it is. Moment to moment self just arises spontaneously, arising out of dependent origination, and is empty of inherent existence. Whether you see it or not, it is that way. Most people do not see it... and that's why they undergo a lot of suffering, and is never at rest.The Buddha taught that there is no point in pondering upon the purpose of our existence. Instead, we should focus on more practical things such as how to end our existence...
I don't think the Buddha said anything about not pondering upon the purpose of our existence. By all means we can make our life a very purposeful one, and from a Buddhist perspective I think we can safely safe a life of compassion, wisdom, and bliss is a life lived worthily....so, I exist just so that I can end my suffering and realise that I actually don't truly exist in the first place?
There never was an inherently existing self. But why are you born in this human life? You are born due to dependent origination, due to karma, due to conditionality.
And when there is no self to be found, you can't say there is a 'self' that does not exist either. Because 'self' is not an entity that can be found, so whether the 'self'-entity is existing or not existing is out of question.
Also this goes back to the same question of 'purpose'... which I have discussed earlier on. -
Some sects of Buddhism believes that one's mind cease to exist after entering Nivana (i.e. the Buddha's mind cease after entering Nivana). Other religion then began to ask why would Buddhist seek to practise the Dharma and 'destroy' themselves? Buddhists answered by stating that our mind don't exist in the first place.
Buddha does not cease after Nirvana -- it is stated in the sutras that it is wrong to think of the Buddha as existing, not-existing, both existing and not existing, neither existing nor not existing. 'Cessation' actually means the 12 interdependent links driving rebirth is ended, just like a car is moving fast but when its engine is destroyed it stops moving. It is not about 'ceasing yourself'.
So Buddhism is clearly not about 'destroying yourself' -- it is merely realising the nature of reality that has always been so, there is no separate self with inherent existence that can be found, and all phenomena are empty of inherent existence. The realisation ends ignorance, which in turns ends the causes and conditions of rebirth.
The difference is only that one is no longer ignorant of reality, no longer continuing the whole momentum of rebirth and suffering, even right while you are living.
It is not right to say our mind does not exist, because even non-existence is empty. The right way to say it is... the mind cannot be found or located, it is ungraspable. You can read the questions Bodhidharma asked the 2nd Zen Patriarch about finding your mind.But well, since I don't truly exist in the first place, what's the point of practising the Dharma? What's the purpose of doing anything at all? Everything and anything that I do is of no significance since my actions and my influences is...insignificant. It is of no significant impact on anyone or anything at all. (like I mentioned, I don't know how to put what I'm thinking in words, but it's something like that)
Everything functions by conditionality, and because there is no self to be found or that all phenomena are empty of inherent existence does not mean that the world is a nihilistic void. It is just that everything is empty of any inherent existence... it arises out of interdependent origination, conditionality, but is empty of any inherent existence.
Therefore if you kill someone, you are still going to get very bad karma. You are still going to be punished under law. Everything is still functioning as it is in conditionality.
Since all phenomena arise by the aggregation of causes and conditions; all phenomena cease by the dispersion of causes and conditions, we must make good use of these causes and conditions. If we can comprehend conditionality, we will be wiser.As I look at the sky and the stars during the night time out of my flat, I truly feel my insignificance (sound very cliche, but well...). Sometime, it brings me comfort in knowing that the problems I face is not that big after all. But at the same time, I feel like I'm a big joke.
When there is true insight into no-self, you will not find yourself insignificant, nor will you find yourself a big joke. When you realise that the notion of a separate self is an illusion, you will find yourself EVERYWHERE, even in the sky and the stars. Everywhere and everyone you look at is like looking at yourself in the mirror. Everything is the expression of your true Buddha Nature that is all pervading. Such a person has little concern for personal problems, thoughts and symbols, what he want to talk about is the rain, the sound of the birds chirping, the sound of keyboard typing.
So what is insignificant is your egoic stories, dramas, problems and attachment. Yet at the same time, you will experience an infinite expansion and realise that your true nature is so much bigger than that. It is BIG not in the sense of big relative to small, but it is big WITHOUT boundaries at all -- infinite.
You will realise it is the WHOLE universe living your life, it is the WHOLE universe eating an apple, scrubbing the toilet stains. There is no separation, no differentiation of our experience at all, Just one whole clarity spontaneity flow, and continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss.. This is not a poetic speech, it is what is truly experienced when insight dawns. There are many people I know around me who had attained such insights who spoke about their experience, that's why I know... and I am merely quoting what they said.
Anyway here is the enlightenment of Brad Warner, a Western Zen teacher:
"I was walking to work, alongside the Sengawa river, just like every day, when in an instant I got it. Every damned thing I'd ever read in a Buddhist book was confirmed that day. The Universe was me and I was the Universe. I looked up at the sky and it was exactly like looking at a mirror. I don't mean that metaphorically either. You know the feeling of recognition you get when you look in a mirror? That's me, you say. Well I got that feeling no matter where I looked. There was no doubt that this state was true. I had no need to confirm it with anyone. And this state has stayed with me ever since then. Even if I want to put it down I can't. Sometimes it's painful. You know those assholes that rammed those planes into the World Trade Center? That was me. The people that died in the collapse. Me again. I don't mean I identify with them or sympathize with them. I mean I am them. It's impossible to explain, but this isn't a figure of speech or bad poetry. I mean it absolutely literally.
"But the Universe is soooooo much bigger than any of that. The sky is me, and the stars too, chirping crickets and the songs they make, sparkling rivers, snow and rain, distant solar systems and whoever may live there, it's all me. And it's all you, too."I can just jump out of my flat (no, I'm not having sucidal thoughts) and I'll just get reborn again and again and again as I had in all my previous lives.
Yeah, it's kinda lame, but though it's lame you are still always undergoing rebirth moment after moment due to ignorance, not even to speak about lifetime after lifetime. Every moment we are following our karmic momentum, experiencing heaven and hell, asuras and ghost and animal realm in our life. The question is how to liberate yourself.
Kinda lame isn't it? -
tell me, did you rip off this topic from andrewpkyap thread?
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No, No-Self is one of the core teachings of Buddhism.Originally posted by allentyb:tell me, did you rip off this topic from andrewpkyap thread?
AndrewPKYap also have some realisation/awakenings and experiences on this subject, though I'm not sure how extent is his level of insights. -
No self is you exist yet there is no body to be seen
Yet you can still see
When you can still see yet without a body or means of sight by eyes
How can i truly exist without a body?
Anyone know what I'm saying or it's crap? -
No self is not about getting rid of your body -- though the identification with body-mind is dropped. Body still functions as normal.Originally posted by maggot:No self is you exist yet there is no body to be seen
Yet you can still see
When you can still see yet without a body or means of sight by eyes
How can i truly exist without a body?
Anyone know what I'm saying or it's crap?
As Longchen said:
At non-duality realisation, body is not seen as entity but as perceptions and sensations that are 'not separated from environment'. In fact perception and sensation is the 'environment'. -
Mahawarrior, anything you aren't very clear about?