Is Buddha tooth here the real McCoy?
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Hi to cycle and aloka,Originally posted by cycle:Thank you so much for posting this extract of the sutta which is most relevant in this Tooth relic discussion.
I hope all of us would take time to read carefully and contemplate over what is written. Then, practise accordingly.
I've also posted another extract of the same passage ( also prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Noble Conversation ) yesterday morning in Daily Buddhism Verses ( maybe easier to digest ):
[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he doesn't say them.
[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he doesn't says them.
[[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time of saying them.
[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he doesn't says them.
[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he doesn't says them.
[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings.
~ MN 58
Good quotation but however this discourse has little to do with the tooth relic issue. As the quote itself had mentioned that Lord Buddha will response differently in different circumstances.
Now we do not have any baby to be pinched by the prince to begin with, unless you are trying to equate that to Ven Fazhao (prince) and the relic in questioned (baby). However, I believe much of the buddhists would like to have the relic to be tested anyway.
If the both of you do study the Pali Canon, at many places in the Canon, Lord Buddha would always encourage people to "establish the truth and expound it". Lord Buddha also often mentioned that His Teachings is "open and with no hidden secrets". This would suggest that we can feel free to examine before we actually accepts it.
In this saga, the tooth relic isn't a "teaching" to begin with. It is suppose to be a symbol of faith but it was been publicized as the true tooth relic from Sakyamuni Buddha.
As tooth relic itself is not a teaching, now this matter will boils down to a factual question. In the most fundamental manner, is the tooth relic in questioned a human tooth to begin with.
I would like to comment on the 32 signs of great men, if you would to understand a bit more in ancient indian literature, that would probably be their ideal image of a Noble One and hence we should avoid to take it literally.
In the Pali Canon there seems to be 2 (if my memory didn't fail me) instances, when people didn't recognise who is Sakyamuni Buddha. There is one sutta which tells that there was a man who heard the Noble One's Teaching from bhinkkhu and he was impressed. He made his way to find the Buddha. On his journey he spent a night at a strawhouse (or horse shed). He then met one bhinkhu and given the time of the culture, both of them exchange salute in polite. They soon had a small chat and from the small chat became a conversation. The topic was about the Buddha that this man wanted to visit. As the conversation went on, the man started to realise that he is talking to none other than the Buddha Himself!
As I had mentioned in another earlier post of mine, if you believe Siddhartha Gautama, upon His Enlightenment would suddenly and instantly change his human anatomy to something else, well then I have nothing to say because that is a personal belief. However, scriptures and scholars alike have been always attribute that Enlightenment is a fully mature state of mind which doesn't mean Lord Buddha's physical form would transform. Or to say when He was borned He just doesn't have human anatomy at all? That sounds scary.
However I think we should just focus in whether or not the relic in question is human to begin with. Or would anyone who had donated to the tooth relic temple like to share their opinions on this issue?
Thank you -
Exactly, why go thru lengthy discourses and diversions when a simple question can't be answered? Are we like the thousands who lined the street watching the emperor parading with no clothe?Originally posted by yamizi:..........
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However I think we should just focus in whether or not the relic in question is human to begin with. Or would anyone who had donated to the tooth relic temple like to share their opinions on this issue?
Come on, be frank and open. If Buddhists can't do that, what more you want to waste your time on Dhamma for?
So, is the tooth in the Relic Temple human or not? Don't give the craps like:
1) Yes, but
2) No, but
3) Faith, more faith
Even the blind is not so blind! -
After thinking about your answers abit, just abit only lah. I have new questions again. Paisay ah.Originally posted by yamizi:.......
However I think we should just focus in whether or not the relic in question is human to begin with. Or would anyone who had donated to the tooth relic temple like to share their opinions on this issue?
Thank you
My questions are:
1) Upon discovering the origins of the tooth to be fake and you are to post the reports to as many mediums as possible, will you be able to acheive this?
2) If reporting to mediums is acheiveable, how will you report it in order to avoid slander to the triple gems by youself (unknowningly) and by the public?
3) How do you get the tooth to be tested out in the first place?
I totally agree with you that the truth will need to be seek out, learnt and understood. But I also do feel that it can be done in a tactful and subtle way, falling to neither extreme of no doing nor doing with discrimination.
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Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:Exactly, why go thru lengthy discourses and diversions when a simple question can't be answered? Are we like the thousands who lined the street watching the emperor parading with no clothe?
Come on, be frank and open. If Buddhists can't do that, what more you want to waste your time on Dhamma for?
So, is the tooth in the Relic Temple human or not? Don't give the craps like:
1) Yes, but
2) No, but
3) Faith, more faith
Even the blind is not so blind!
I don't think you can find a solid mundane world answer of "Yes" or "No" here.
IMHO, a "yes" and "no" does not matter. It is the motivation that matters. What is your motivation leh?
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Hello oldkid,
My replies are in blue =)Originally posted by oldkid:After thinking about your answers abit, just abit only lah. I have new questions again. Paisay ah.
My questions are:
1) Upon discovering the origins of the tooth to be fake and you are to post the reports to as many mediums as possible, will you be able to acheive this?
If the tooth relic in questioned is to be sent for test, I believe the result itself would be reported in news which is the mainstream media. What I can do is simply to put on blogs, forums, the so-called alternative media.
2) If reporting to mediums is acheiveable, how will you report it in order to avoid slander to the triple gems by youself (unknowningly) and by the public?
Slandering would mean to say something that is untrue. But after testing, if it turns out to be fake, then it's not "saying something that is untrue", so how could that amount to slandering? I believe by and large, the public nowadays are intelligent and more well-informed. They will understand that it is Ven Fazhao and his merry-men's doings and their doings cannot represent Buddhism.If there are some who misunderstood then it will be our responsibility as buddhists to clarify the matter.
3) How do you get the tooth to be tested out in the first place?
Very interesting! Probably a joint petition to request? In fact, Ven Fazhao should have have the relic tested on his own initiative in the very first place. But better late than never =)
I totally agree with you that the truth will need to be seek out, learnt and understood. But I also do feel that it can be done in a tactful and subtle way, falling to neither extreme of no doing nor doing with discrimination.
I think for a monk of his status to make comment like the tooth is his why let it be tested, such comment seems to be extreme itself. -
Both method and motivation should be considered carefully. Especially when spreading one's religion in concern, where honesty, truth and other wholesome merits are parts of our values, if one would to use deceitful manner in the beginning, this would seems to suggest the truthfulness of the belief itself. =)Originally posted by oldkid:
I don't think you can find a solid mundane world answer of "Yes" or "No" here.
IMHO, a "yes" and "no" does not matter. It is the motivation that matters. What is your motivation leh? -
Since you mentioned it, my belief is that since AEN is not adverse to spreading falsehood if the need arise, then his belief is indeed questionable.Originally posted by yamizi:Both method and motivation should be considered carefully. Especially when spreading one's religion in concern, where honesty, truth and other wholesome merits are parts of our values, if one would to use deceitful manner in the beginning, this would seems to suggest the truthfulness of the belief itself. =) -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Since you mentioned it, my belief is that since AEN is not adverse to spreading falsehood if the need arise, then his belief is indeed questionable.
Why suddenly talk about me?
And what falsehoods are you talking about? -
Nah he is just trolling, don't mind him.Originally posted by An Eternal Now: Why suddenly talk about me?
And what falsehoods are you talking about? -
Hmmm .... perhaps I should add two more:Originally posted by oldkid:
I don't think you can find a solid mundane world answer of "Yes" or "No" here.
IMHO, a "yes" and "no" does not matter. It is the motivation that matters. What is your motivation leh? So, is the tooth in the Relic Temple human or not? Don't give the craps like:
If there is one thing I learnt so far in Buddhism, it is: Neither Here nor There - neither Yes nor No, neither Self nor No-Self, neither Existence nor Non-Existence, neither Emptiness nor Void.
1) Yes, but
2) No, but
3) Faith, more faith
4) Neither Yes or No
5) It does not matter
This is DUALITY vs REALITY ??
My motivation? After writing so much you are asking me this question? My motivation is to know the Truth of the Tooth! -
Erm, have you read my Emptiness reply? Obviously you haven't otherwise you wouldn't ask like that.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:If there is one thing I learnt so far in Buddhism, it is: Neither Here nor There - neither Yes nor No, neither Self nor No-Self, neither Existence nor Non-Existence, neither Emptiness nor Void.
This is DUALITY vs REALITY ??
Emptiness, the ultimate reality, is empty of ALL those erroneous conceptions, or the 4 extremes: Existence, Non-existence, Neither Existence nor Non Existence, and Both Existence and Non Existence.
But when we discuss relative truths we need to talk about yes and no, and also both yes and no, depending on the situations. -
BTW until now I kept thinking you're a Buddhist
Now I know you're probably a free thinker.
No wonder didn't reply my msg on your tradition want me to continue thinking you're some Buddhist.. hahaha -
By the way, I didn't know you're not a Buddhist so I explained Emptiness to you on the assumption you have had at least a little Buddhist knowledge.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:If there is one thing I learnt so far in Buddhism, it is: Neither Here nor There - neither Yes nor No, neither Self nor No-Self, neither Existence nor Non-Existence, neither Emptiness nor Void.
This is DUALITY vs REALITY ??
My motivation? After writing so much you are asking me this question? My motivation is to know the Truth of the Tooth!
But since you're not Buddhist, or completely new to it, I suggest you do some reading up first, and see what Buddhism is about: All About Buddhism ~ For Non-Buddhists and Buddhists
Otherwise you'll not see much implications of the discussions. -
Hahahha, if I am already blue, what's the point of explaining blue to me? However, every Buddhist concept should be capable of being explained in the simplest form without having ABC (Already Buddhist Convert) !Originally posted by An Eternal Now:BTW until now I kept thinking you're a Buddhist Now I know you're probably a free thinker.
No wonder didn't reply my msg on your tradition want me to continue thinking you're some Buddhist.. hahaha -
Ok, will try to..Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:Hahahha, if I am already blue, what's the point of explaining blue to me? However, every Buddhist concept should be capable of being explained in the simplest form without having ABC (Already Buddhist Convert) ! -
Woah! Thanks! I get your ideas now. Please do work hard on your path of cultivation. I do find some truth in what you said and after reflecting on what's your point of view in comparison with mine.Originally posted by yamizi:Hello oldkid,
My replies are in blue =)
Oh, for the slandering part, if assuming the tooth is fake, you can write in your blog or forum in a neutral standpoint... something factual, scientific and informative. In this way confirm no sladering from you liao. As for the public, how they react will of course based on their habitual karma which means true practising Buddhist will have no way of controlling how they react. IMHO, I do not think they are intelligent in a Dharma way. Looking at the NKF incident will tell us alot. Most of them including the media just wanna piece of Duria. They forgot about the sufferings of the patients. We must also look at the other side. If there is no Duria in the 1st place, people will not know about the patients. If in $1 he took 90 cents, at least the patients still have 10 cents. You can say that Duria has the role of Devadetta.
Btw, which tradition you come from yamizi? -
SN 12.40: Cetana Sutta (3) — Volition
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Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:1 This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
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Notes
1. The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12. -
It is definitely not human, but likely bovine in nature. I have examined enough human skulls and teeth in my professional life to recognize human remains. The tooth as shown in the ST photograph was, is and will never be human.Originally posted by yamizi:However I think we should just focus in whether or not the relic in question is human to begin with. -
I have always remind myself to post neutral and objective postings and comments although I may take things personal at times in my mind. But my objective in sharing and discussing here is not out to win anyone or anything but to find out what is the truth. Therefore, before I submit a comment on forum, I would read a few times to make sure it's not fuelled with my personal negative emotions into it.Originally posted by oldkid:Woah! Thanks! I get your ideas now. Please do work hard on your path of cultivation. I do find some truth in what you said and after reflecting on what's your point of view in comparison with mine.
Oh, for the slandering part, if assuming the tooth is fake, you can write in your blog or forum in a neutral standpoint... something factual, scientific and informative. In this way confirm no sladering from you liao. As for the public, how they react will of course based on their habitual karma which means true practising Buddhist will have no way of controlling how they react. IMHO, I do not think they are intelligent in a Dharma way. Looking at the NKF incident will tell us alot. Most of them including the media just wanna piece of Duria. They forgot about the sufferings of the patients. We must also look at the other side. If there is no Duria in the 1st place, people will not know about the patients. If in $1 he took 90 cents, at least the patients still have 10 cents. You can say that Duria has the role of Devadetta.
Btw, which tradition you come from yamizi?
I belong to no tradition. =) -
Thank you oxford for your precious views =)Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It is definitely not human, but likely bovine in nature. I have examined enough human skulls and teeth in my professional life to recognize human remains. The tooth as shown in the ST photograph was, is and will never be human. -
That is very good for been neutral yamizi. Also it also doesn't matter that you do not have any tradition now. Prehaps you may find one one day, prehaps you may not. The important thing is to be open-minded, live right, be happy and of course help those who are in need.Originally posted by yamizi:I have always remind myself to post neutral and objective postings and comments although I may take things personal at times in my mind. But my objective in sharing and discussing here is not out to win anyone or anything but to find out what is the truth. Therefore, before I submit a comment on forum, I would read a few times to make sure it's not fuelled with my personal negative emotions into it.
I belong to no tradition. =)
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Dhamma is not bounded by any traditions. =)Originally posted by oldkid:That is very good for been neutral yamizi. Also it also doesn't matter that you do not have any tradition now. Prehaps you may find one one day, prehaps you may not. The important thing is to be open-minded, live right, be happy and of course help those who are in need.
It's to know what Buddha meant and live His words.
As of now, to seek the truth, the truth of the tooth relic saga =) -
Finally, after so many posts, discourses and diversions, I get an answer that is NOT:Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It is definitely not human, but likely bovine in nature. I have examined enough human skulls and teeth in my professional life to recognize human remains. The tooth as shown in the ST photograph was, is and will never be human.So, is the tooth in the Relic Temple human or not? Don't give the craps like:
Honestly, we all know the answer! But I am amazed at the GREAT DENIAL! The reluctance to face the issue squarely and instead project to so many 'conditions' - Faith, Dhamma, Liberation, etc.
1) Yes, but
2) No, but
3) Faith, more faith
4) Neither Yes or No
5) It does not matter
Now, the True Test is: what are Buddhists going to do?
1) continue to blindly believe it is the Buddha's tooth
2) shocked with disbelief, but go into more denial
3) brush it off as 'it does not matter'
4) faith, faith, faith, why bother about truth?
Now that I know the Truth, it shall set me Free! -
No, I am not trolling but really questioning AEN's basis of his faith.Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Nah he is just trolling, don't mind him. -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
Seems that TheGoodEarth has struck the problem dead-on...
Honestly, we all know the answer! But I am amazed at the GREAT DENIAL! The reluctance to face the issue squarely and instead project to so many 'conditions' - Faith, Dhamma, Liberation, etc.
Now, the True Test is: what are Buddhists going to do?
1) continue to blindly believe it is the Buddha's tooth
2) shocked with disbelief, but go into more denial
3) brush it off as 'it does not matter'
4) faith, faith, faith, why bother about truth?
[b]Now that I know the Truth, it shall set me Free![/b]