Is Buddha tooth here the real McCoy?
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ExactlyOriginally posted by oxford mushroom:It is definitely not human, but likely bovine in nature. I have examined enough human skulls and teeth in my professional life to recognize human remains. The tooth as shown in the ST photograph was, is and will never be human.
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I am claiming about AEN's righteousness of lying as a skillful method of transmission.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:No, I am not trolling but really questioning AEN's basis of his faith. -
The matter of fact is yes, you are trolling, as usual.
And I am questioning the basis of your post. Don't make baseless accusations without showing evidences.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:No, I am not trolling but really questioning AEN's basis of his faith.
Where???Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I am claiming about AEN's righteousness of lying as a skillful method of transmission. -
Many thanks ,may you start to realise your follyOriginally posted by yamizi:Wow challenges again?
Anyone with a sane and rational mind would know and understand that I'm not here to debate but rather to urge and encourage intelligent people to find out the truth instead of simply accept.
Why use death to threathen me? Every second is a second closer to death anytime. And before I die, I would really hope there will be intelligent and reasonable people who have faith, understand, accept and practice buddhism because they know that it is a realisitc and practical faith. Not simply by words of a monk that says he believes and everyone else believes!
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First .You sound righteous ,but Buddhism is a peace -loving religion
How do you define faith ?
Dont forget you still think Amitabha dont exist ,as what you say in IRC posting
If faith is build on questioning and the answer known ,still keep on questioning ,so I find your basis abit flawed .
First Who is this Sakyamuni ,you have faith in ?
A Indian sage ?
His teaching ?
or you witness his magical powers ?
Based on Lotus sutra , the flower and grass chapter - you look at Faith in Buddhism in a shallow manner
the Flower Adornment Sutra have also said "Faith is the merit , source and the mother of the Path ;can grow all wholesome roots
Samantabhadra have told us in His primary vows is based as the first stepping stone
So Where is your "Homage to all Buddha " understanding ?
Next ,based on Yogacara point of view ,all pheonomenon originates from the mind ,and the seeds is the driving force of all karmic energy in life
May I ask , do you see you are planting wholesome seeds or unwholesome one now ?
You answer yourself all this question
You dun have a past to hide , so I am also not bothered with you .
Yes I do know you from Ngee Ann Poly and I don't think I have any past to hide, if you were like to expose, go ahead but please do in another thread as I had suggested in discussion in regards to tibetan buddhism in my previous reply. This thread is meant to discuss on the authencity of the relic in questioned, please do not divert the focus away.
well I can dig out all the attack you made to Tibetan Buddhism on derogatory remarks like "tantric sex " "demonic religion "
If your mind is pure, so why do you see them as demonic ?I still going back to the Cheng Kuan Patriach on refuting all this views of Pheonomenon perceiving
wrathful deities and protector as Demons
so tell me ,Guan Gong is a protector of Buddhism ,do you think he should put on a smile ?
Historically yes one Buddha , but Buddha taught there are many other Buddha before us
Why would you need to dare me to set up a society? A buddhist society simply is an organisation that gathers like-minded buddhists. Keyword, like-minded. Which therefore, even though historically we have only one Buddha who appeared in the world, so many societies were established because I believe the various founders would have their different reasons, or to put it in more buddhistic term yin yuan, in setting up their respective societies.
Amitabha Budha
Medicine Buddha
Akshobhaya Buddha
and many many Buddha ,based on which sutra you say there is only one Buddha which have affinity with us ?
If you deny Amitabha Buddha ,then you are still denying Buddha's teaching in totality
tell me why you need to CONTROL buddhist ?
However, the only buddhist authority in the history of Buddhism itself would seems to be during the Buddha's time. However, the just and fair authority would have eventually disappear and in modern times we do not have a sole and single buddhist authority that suppose to control buddhists all round the world. I sincerely believe that Lord Buddha would encourage both ordain and laity to discuss and share the wonderful Dhamma.
and how is it wonderful in Buddhadharma ?
I still know the president and several people who were your junior , they are still my network of friend .
On the contrary, I would like to remind of your remarks making against me for the various post. Using kammic fruition, death, "expose my past" (as if I don't know what are you doing behind) as methods in order to keep me quiet. I personally for one think that what you had commented are definitely uncoming from a buddhist.
I wont expose you ,but you better mind your practice
constructive sharing, I wont say it is constructive ,becos you use lying in your reply post to me
This seems to suggest that you are not in an objective mindset in enquiring the truth pertaining to the tooth relic saga. I would say if you can't make any constructive sharing then probably it will really be great merits for you to stop posting instead of using various threat-like means in an attempt to stop me and indirectly stoping others forummers.
so I am trying to hoodwink other here .I think you forget ,its you who shoot the first arrow
if you can call Lord Buddha , the why do you slander Amitabha Buddha .
I believe forums, especially buddhist forum are meant to be healthy exchange of experience and observation for the benefit of everyone. As buddhists, we ought to be careful the way we present ourselves, be it agreeing or disagreeing with the points exchange. The impression that Lord Buddha gives me during my pursuit in the Dhamma for 10 years is that He definitely would encourage healthy exchange of ideas.
You are as good as denying Buddha powers to see beyond things
How do you know I do not have a pure mind? You mean you have pure mind? Having a pure mind would resort in the above means in attempting to keep me and others quiet? And who are you to say I degrade the works of Kamma?
LOL
so you are the policeman , i am the thief ah ?
I will like to conclude my posting by inviting the owner/moderator to keep a close watch on this thread, especially on bodhiruici's hostile and unfriendly remarks towards other forummers. I remembered bodhiruici used word like "Begone" to TheGoodEarth. I don't think that's warranted, especially bodhiruici is a senior member of this forum, I am concerned that this will create a negative impression to others or even caused potential good postings not to surfaced due to the fear of getting flamed. I hope the owner/moderator would take necessary actions against such unruly behaviour.
Thank you
may you be well and happy for 35 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years -
and Yamizi , thanks for keep spelling my name wrongly
You said you know about Lotus Sutra ,now can you explain , due to the different kind of position one will deliver ,will one see the transformation of (Avalokiteshvara) as model of deliverance ?
And what is the understanding of goat carriage, deer carriage and white buffalo carriage
and what is the understanding of One trueness Dharmadhatu
So you claim the Buddha tooth relic is false ? of what basis and which sutra you said is false ?
Can you be 100% sure ?or are you just speculating
When I say status quo for me , do not put words into my mouth say I am lying
since you like so much to discuss on Buddha tooth relic , i will answer based on my 15 years of Dharma on Buddhism on the various aspect of Buddha relics
and you be prepared to see many many many replies on this -
Flower Adornment Sutra (Hua Yan )sutra
contributes 20 % to the concept of Faith
Buddha first expounded Hua yan as to break the concept of montheistic and polytheistic religion idea of one heaven and one earth
its the trichillicosmo of Buddhafield
one Buddhafield is one thousand million planets
Putting Buddha teaching to test is good , but the critical idea is not to get distracted with always putting Buddha teaching to test always
infact scientist have known to be the most anti-social grp of ppl , clinging to ideas and theories .
If science is the religion of modern people ,why is there report of scientists at rage ,kill the whole family ,which happen in taiwan and ard the world ?
active reasoning and investigation together with looking inner is an important steps to learning Buddhism
Buddha said at his Parinirvana when the leaves of the sala tree fall upon him as sign of respect though its not autumn .
"this is not the way to honour me .the only way is to practise it and benefit others " -
next we look at Buddha relic .
I seen the Buddha relic and understand AEN post on that
its a building of self- merit not able to measure by anything
becos "human is the measure of all thing"
and two different person , a scientist , and a meditation master each the different things of a relics ,so how can we compare them as one
Human live in this world for more than 7000 years , and things not able to ascertain their existence is too many , like fairies ,ghost ,Aliens , existence of Hell
the experience of all this cannot be measured ,becos we dont have the ability to measure, we can only use the saint measure of experience .
I saw the taiwan Buddha nail relics myself. So it also doesnt look like a relic to me . but the most impt thing is am I using relic to testify Buddha teaching ?
I would say no . becos I dun have relics at home ,so the importance is the teachings and not relics
I frankly have no financial means to support Buddha tooth relics as i am a pauper , but i rejoice at people who able to do so ,and they are doing a meritorious act , no matter how much they are
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When some forummer say the merits is burning ,yes its true
Buddha teaching of the relics in the All BUddha relic Pagoda sutra state the Merit of supporting the relics housing in Stupa is great ,which one will enjoy
happiness and richness for many lifetime ,some ppl here actually get the wrong idea that it must be an authentic relic
As I have already said as quoted in the Parinirvana Sutra
Buddha cannot be cremated by ordinary fire ,
He is cremated by the fire of samadhi, not found in saha world .
so all his relics cannot use normal scientific methods to measure
just like a person on deathbed ,sees the light of Amitabha
and other cant see .then how to measure is it true ?
All please read Bequeathed teaching on the Buddha relic, it tells alot of thing about how the body is cremated
In the Parinirvana Sutra , it is stated there is only 2 relic , the rest is innumerous pieces
one in china , at Famen si
one in Sri lanka
the issue of relics should not divert us on the real message Buddha gets to us
"seek him not in the sound , image and material form ,as all this is evil seeking" -
I have brought 2 points to this discussion
1. one can pay homage to the relics and continue to practise His teachings
2.one can ignore the Buddha relics and still continue to practise His teachings
so the bottomline is not on the relics , its on one practise .
If one given a Buddha relic on ones deathbed , throughout the lifetime one never practises at all , so the Buddha tooth relics also cant help one salvation
its still the perennial one plus one equal two age old formulae
faith + practise = enlightenment
faith - practise = fortune next life [an elephant raised in the royal family also good fortune]
practise - faith = monk who always have empty almsbowl -
I shall focus my reply on tooth relic. Faith is interesting but it would be better to start another thread and deal with that specifically.Originally posted by bohiruci:I have brought 2 points to this discussion
1. one can pay homage to the relics and continue to practise His teachings
2.one can ignore the Buddha relics and still continue to practise His teachings
so the bottomline is not on the relics , its on one practise .
If one given a Buddha relic on ones deathbed , throughout the lifetime one never practises at all , so the Buddha tooth relics also cant help one salvation
The issue here is whether the tooth at the Relic Temple is the REAL tooth of the Buddha.
Since you said that the bottom-line is not the relic, then why put in so much money, effort, security, pompous, ceremony, bull-shit, in the face of authencity challenge and incredulity to the tooth?
I expect an intelligent answer not another faith crap ...... -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
First , I want to understand what do you understand by Faith ?
I shall focus my reply on tooth relic. Faith is interesting but it would be better to start another thread and deal with that specifically.
The issue here is whether the tooth at the Relic Temple is the REAL tooth of the Buddha.
[b]Since you said that the bottom-line is not the relic, then why put in so much money, effort, security, pompous, ceremony, bull-shit, in the face of authencity challenge and incredulity to the tooth?
I expect an intelligent answer not another faith crap ......[/b]
Do you believe what your parents is doing for you ? or you simply questioned it ?
since you directed a crap wordings , I think you have thought of Faith as Blind faith
Faith is Saddha in Pali , and Right Faith
In the Buddhist process of reaching enlightenment , there are only 4 process
Faith ,Understanding ,Practice ,Realisation
One can choose to go to understanding or Faith ,but will eventually reach realisation
However , you already question the notion of Faith , so whats the point of proceeding ?
So you will believe in a Religion which u do not put to test certain teachings and and wholeheartedly believe in ? or you will also carry on Blindly follow the parents trend to believe in such thing ?
You claim every answer to be an non-intelligent ,so based on your idea, Is Sakyamuni Buddha making an unintelligent appearance to you ?
answer with a crossed heart
You claim to be theGoodEarth , but thats not the way theGoodEarth should answer .TheGoodEarth should encompass all hatred and goodwill ,and transform into more Energy of Goodness to all
you nick is your destiny
Since you are at war with words, your mind isnt at Peace
Om mani Padme Hum
May I pray for your Well-being for 35 million until you see Maitreya Buddha .
the Auspicious Buddha of Loving Kindness
Next thing , what Ven Fazhao do is none of our issue .Buddha already stated in the Praktimosha , the wrongdoing of monk must be addressed to the Sangha ,and all must be in democratic and fair ,without coercion
If it is not , then Buddhism should not even exist ,as it is a mob religion
I challenge with the Reputation of Buddhism ,because I testify to the uncountable good things that help me when I am in distress .
So , without Faith , would I be here discussion with you in the Forum ?
of what good deeds you must say , you have encountered the Holy Buddhadharma and with the retinue of learned ppl here , like AEN , thusness , wanderer , paperflower , justdoit77 ,coolbluewater -
Slight corrections here, I'm not 'learned' just a learnerOriginally posted by bohiruci:of what good deeds you must say , you have encountered the Holy Buddhadharma and with the retinue of learned ppl here , like AEN , thusness , wanderer , paperflower , justdoit77 ,coolbluewater -
Bodhiruici,
You typed too much so I don't bother to quote.
As I have already mentioned, if you want to discuss on tibetan and tantric tradition please start a new thread. That includes on Amitabha's existence.
I called Lord Buddha because that is one of the common English translation in Pali Canon you can check it up upon.
This thread is to focus on the tooth relic saga, I would have hoped you don't divert the forummers' attention. I have no idea what is your agenda in doing so, however I have no intention to know because I would hope people to focus on discussing on the questioned tooth rather than your flaming which seems to suggest that you are not ready to discuss a simple issue of yes, the tooth relic is true; or no, the tooth relic is a fake.
And as you have said I have nothing to hide, I have no idea what are you going to 'expose' in front of my junior. And really, I don't bother about all these personal threats.
To sum it up, this thread's purpose is to allow healthy and constructive discussion on the tooth relic saga. And for people who had once donated or in anyway can contribute to share their opinions generously with others.
What you are doing is simply personal attack.
Let's not let our mind in this thread wander of but to focus on the tooth issue and I appreciate and applaude TheGoodEarth for being focus on the issue like I am. -
Hi Bohiruci and all others, please refrain from talking any off-topic personal matters and focus purely on the current forum topic. It is my hope that all forummers will stay on topic and not bring out private and personal matters to the main forum.
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Originally posted by bohiruci:
My question was:
[b]
First , I want to understand what do you understand by Faith ?
Do you believe what your parents is doing for you ? or you simply questioned it ?
There is a fundamental problem with you. This thread is not about Faith.
since you directed a crap wordings , I think you have thought of Faith as Blind faith
If you have read my post on Faith, I said there were 4 kinds. Blind Faith is amongst them.
Faith is Saddha in Pali , and Right Faith
You have only one view, which is very short!.
In the Buddhist process of reaching enlightenment , there are only 4 process
Faith ,Understanding ,Practice ,Realisation
I disagree. The way to enlightenment is the Four Noble Truth, not the process or the Tooth.
One can choose to go to understanding or Faith ,but will eventually reach realisation
Realise what?
However , you already question the notion of Faith , so whats the point of proceeding ?
You should proceed to answer my question, not to give me crap on faith.
So you will believe in a Religion which u do not put to test certain teachings and and wholeheartedly believe in ? or you will also carry on Blindly follow the parents trend to believe in such thing ?
I believe in the religion of Truth not in the religion of Tooth.
You claim every answer to be an non-intelligent ,so based on your idea, Is Sakyamuni Buddha making an unintelligent appearance to you ?
answer with a crossed heart
An answer that is not an answer is unintelligent.
You claim to be theGoodEarth , but thats not the way theGoodEarth should answer .TheGoodEarth should encompass all hatred and goodwill ,and transform into more Energy of Goodness to all
???????
you nick is your destiny
???????
Since you are at war with words, your mind isnt at Peace
???????
Om mani Padme Hum
???????May I pray for your Well-being for 35 million until you see Maitreya Buddha .
the Auspicious Buddha of Loving Kindness
???????
Next thing , what Ven Fazhao do is none of our issue .Buddha already stated in the Praktimosha , the wrongdoing of monk must be addressed to the Sangha ,and all must be in democratic and fair ,without coercion
It has everything to do with Buddhists who seek the Truth.
If it is not , then Buddhism should not even exist ,as it is a mob religion
If it is not the Truth, then you have been following Buddha like a mob.
Since you said that the bottom-line is not the relic, then why put in so much money, effort, security, pompous, ceremony, bull-*&^#, in the face of authencity challenge and incredulity to the tooth? -
Yup, let us just focus on the issue over the authencity of the tooth relic in question. Apparently there isn't any official release from BTRT in the past week?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Hi Bohiruci and all others, please refrain from talking any off-topic personal matters and focus purely on the current forum topic. It is my hope that all forummers will stay on topic and not bring out private and personal matters to the main forum. -
are you asking me or Ven Fazhao ?Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:My question was:
Since you said that the bottom-line is not the relic, then why put in so much money, effort, security, pompous, ceremony, bull-*&^#, in the face of authencity challenge and incredulity to the tooth?
dun ask the wrong person -
let me say , this is only a tip of an iceberg to you , no matter what you would ernestly want to affirm , its totally your issueOriginally posted by yamizi:Bodhiruici,
You typed too much so I don't bother to quote.
Amitabha exist regardless of whether you believe He does
As I have already mentioned, if you want to discuss on tibetan and tantric tradition please start a new thread. That includes on Amitabha's existence.
so how abt Mahayana text ... are you implying something ?
I called Lord Buddha because that is one of the common English translation in Pali Canon you can check it up upon.
I am no saint , so why would I need to speculate on such thing ?Why not you ask the Buddha on this ?
This thread is to focus on the tooth relic saga, I would have hoped you don't divert the forummers' attention. I have no idea what is your agenda in doing so, however I have no intention to know because I would hope people to focus on discussing on the questioned tooth rather than your flaming which seems to suggest that you are not ready to discuss a simple issue of yes, the tooth relic is true; or no, the tooth relic is a fake.
See ,your personal comment again .
And as you have said I have nothing to hide, I have no idea what are you going to 'expose' in front of my junior. And really, I don't bother about all these personal threats.
I would be laughing at your one-sided issue on this
To sum it up, this thread's purpose is to allow healthy and constructive discussion on the tooth relic saga. And for people who had once donated or in anyway can contribute to share their opinions generously with others.
What you are doing is simply personal attack.
[quote]
Let's not let our mind in this thread wander of but to focus on the tooth issue and I appreciate and applaude TheGoodEarth for being focus on the issue like I am.
Buddhism is the religion of seeking inner , where would debate and no real
practice last this religion ????
I guess i will keep on posting as my lifespan allows
May you be well and happy -
Isn't it obvious? I thought you go by faith, not by question?Originally posted by bohiruci:are you asking me or Ven Fazhao ?
dun ask the wrong person
Last I heard, the Ven has skipped town. So how to ask him? -
Woah.... so heated.... But I can feel one thing: Everyone already have their own answer to whether the tooth is real or fake or doesn't matter.
And also, we will still have to wait for someone to verfiy the tooth, let the media report the verification and then we will know. Other than that I don't see how is it possible to know it if it is real or fake. -
practice-faith= absolute truth...Originally posted by bohiruci:I have brought 2 points to this discussion
1. one can pay homage to the relics and continue to practise His teachings
2.one can ignore the Buddha relics and still continue to practise His teachings
so the bottomline is not on the relics , its on one practise .
If one given a Buddha relic on ones deathbed , throughout the lifetime one never practises at all , so the Buddha tooth relics also cant help one salvation
its still the perennial one plus one equal two age old formulae
faith + practise = enlightenment
faith - practise = fortune next life [an elephant raised in the royal family also good fortune]
practise - faith = monk who always have empty almsbowl -
Yes, you may keep posting but please post your comments on the relevant threads. I believe the forummers here will appreciate you to be more courteous, polite and objective in discussing the respective subjects in the correct thread.Originally posted by bohiruci:let me say , this is only a tip of an iceberg to you , no matter what you would ernestly want to affirm , its totally your issue
Buddhism is the religion of seeking inner , where would debate and no real
practice last this religion ????
I guess i will keep on posting as my lifespan allows
May you be well and happy
This thread again, is on the issue on the tooth relic saga, if you really have nothing constructive to comment, please refrain from doing so and I believe the other forummers will be grateful to you.
Basically I will only like to bring up a few points for all to discuss in this thread:
1. Is the tooth relic in question belongs to human in the first place?
2. Should buddhists encourage scientific testing on the tooth relic in question?
3. Please be reminded that years back BTRT advertised that the tooth relic in question is the authentic remain from Lord Sakyamuni (caine tooth from lower left jaw), so if the tooth relic in question is a fake one, how should buddhists with the right faith, right understanding and right view response to this issue? ie. monk with high status negligent in checking on the authencity of tooth relic in question; common people losing faith and sees Buddhism as a lesser credible belief as the monk is not forthcoming when he was interviewed by the reporters; etc.
I will urge that forummers to contribute to a healthy discussion. This can only happen if everyone would be mindful and objective in their postings.
If anyone would like to discuss subjects that is irrelevant, I hope that they will be started in other threads. Personal attacks should be avoided in a mature discussion environment.
Thank you. -
There is really no need to resort to personal attacks and using threats on another poster just because he/she does not subscribe to the same opinion. That is really something which should be abhorred and it also shows a thorough lack of respect to the other poster.
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Yes, it's just a matter of different point of view.Originally posted by sanath:There is really no need to resort to personal attacks and using threats on another poster just because he/she does not subscribe to the same opinion. That is really something which should be abhorred and it also shows a thorough lack of respect to the other poster.
From this thread I had learnt alot from everyone. From the none-believers, to the neutrals to the absolute-believers, I had learnt valuable lessons.
It is true that the answer is important sometimes, but then in this case for me, it really doesn't matter. Cos, this is not the way to see Buddha.
I will not be surprised if this issue dies down and go away in another 2 weeks. It will be old news to the media if no more new discoveries are made.
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And also, we will still have to wait for someone to verfiy the tooth, let the media report the verification and then we will know. Other than that I don't see how is it possible to know it if it is real or fake.
The media has already reported it. Not just the experts they consulted said it's not human, but every dentist and doctor worth his salt will certify that it is not human. I have no issue if any person wishes to venerate any object as sacred...that's his prerogative. But the fact remains the tooth as shown in the newspapers is not human. -
People got eyes to see