Is Buddha tooth here the real McCoy?
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Not human tooth so don't need to check whether is it buddhaOriginally posted by oxford mushroom:The media has already reported it. Not just the experts they consulted said it's not human, but every dentist and doctor worth his salt will certify that it is not human. I have no issue if any person wishes to venerate any object as sacred...that's his prerogative. But the fact remains the tooth as shown in the newspapers is not human.
So people are worshipping a tooth of an animal or a beast
Wonder how they going to clear the mess
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The issue is over. We all know the tooth in the Relic Temple is not human. So, no need to DNA and bla bla excuses given by the temple officials and the many forumers here.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
Honestly, we all know the answer! But I am amazed at the GREAT DENIAL! The reluctance to face the issue squarely and instead project to so many 'conditions' - Faith, Dhamma, Liberation, etc.
Now, the True Test is: what are Buddhists going to do?
1) continue to blindly believe it is the Buddha's tooth
2) shocked with disbelief, but go into more denial
3) brush it off as 'it does not matter'
4) faith, faith, faith, why bother about truth?Now that I know the Truth, it shall set me Free!
When one believes by blind faith, then unreal, untruth, superstitions, misrepresentations, etc. do not matter. This is very SAD. As intelligent beings, we have to be discerning in all matters, including the very BELIEF we all hold dear to. If not, it is CLINGING.
Why cling to falsehood?
Why can't we acccept irrefutable fact?
Why the great denial?
Why can't we see the emperor had no clothe?
BLIND, BLIND, BLIND. HAVE EYES BUT CANNOT SEE. -
Hello oldkid,
Reply in dark blue again hehe =POriginally posted by oldkid:
Yes, it's just a matter of different point of view.
Definitely!
From this thread I had learnt alot from everyone. From the none-believers, to the neutrals to the absolute-believers, I had learnt valuable lessons.
Me too. In addition to observe how different 'types' of buddhists and non-buddhists responding differently.
It is true that the answer is important sometimes, but then in this case for me, it really doesn't matter. Cos, this is not the way to see Buddha.
I think answers are always important but some answers are not relevant. Some answers may not be relevant to us in a direct way but they can be helpful and come in handy in times. Understanding this issue allows me to explain whoever had gravely misunderstood Buddhism over this issue. Do you know this saga may possibly lead to Duan4 Zhong4 Sheng1 Hui4 Ming4 if people losing trust in Buddhism?
The way to see the Buddha is definitely to see the Dhamma. How does one sees the Dhamma? By practicing the Dhamma!
I will not be surprised if this issue dies down and go away in another 2 weeks. It will be old news to the media if no more new discoveries are made.
I have expected that this issue will eventually die down in the mainstream media. However during this more than 2 weeks of commotion, it has certainly caused a lot of feedbacks. Apparently, it suggests to me the "ming jian xin yang' buddhists (ie. the cabbies I have been asking during this period) are more than willing to feel that it is fair to have a scientific test done on the tooth unlike 'buddhists' whom I see online trying to use reasons like faith or some even more hilarious, saying Ven Fazhao had been cheated by the Myammar monk, etc. But no one dare to face the question and challenge squarely. In quite a few other forums, non-buddhistic forums included, there are a lot more sensible and rational reasoning. Even if mainstream media ceases reporting, we always have the alternative media and if the issue is still hot in here, sometimes the mainstream media will just pick up again.
Personally, even if the whole saga eventually died down in both mediums of media, at least I know that during this time whoever had came across these reports will probably stop to ponder before making contributions to any buddhist organisations. Not to ponder whether or not will the donor gain merits but whether the donation is genuinely going for a good cause for Dhamma propogation and charity. Buddhists should have compassion, however compassion alone is not enough, buddhists should be wise in making their decisions. Besides, earning a living in Singapore is not easy so please don't waste money in vain.
Buddhists should also adhere to relying on the Dhamma and not on the person. As I have mentioned, this issue is related to what I call 'monkism'. Followers of a particular religion just simply believes the words said by clergies of high status. This is definitely not what Lord Buddha would have encouraged. If Lord Buddha would to simply follow someone who has high regards in his belief system, probably He won't even become Enlightened in the first place, as He would have simply followed and not have the will and determination to seek for the solutions to mankind's suffering already.
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Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
Actually, I don't see anyone in BWB denying anything about whether the tooth is real.
The issue is over. We all know the tooth in the Relic Temple is not human. So, no need to DNA and bla bla excuses given by the temple officials and the many forumers here.
When one [b]believes by blind faith, then unreal, untruth, superstitions, misrepresentations, etc. do not matter. This is very SAD. As intelligent beings, we have to be discerning in all matters, including the very BELIEF we all hold dear to. If not, it is CLINGING.
Why cling to falsehood?
Why can't we acccept irrefutable fact?
Why the great denial?
Why can't we see the emperor had no clothe?
BLIND, BLIND, BLIND. HAVE EYES BUT CANNOT SEE.
[/b]
If the tooth is real, its real. If it is not, it is not. The Buddha's greatest gift to us is the Dharma, not his tooth. Why are you so agitated about this? -
Wah even the Mr Brown Show (the most popular and visited Blog in Singapore) made a postcast on the Tooth Relic
http://www.mrbrownshow.com/2007/07/31/the-mrbrown-show-the-worshipping/ -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Wah even the Mr Brown Show (the most popular and visited Blog in Singapore) made a postcast on the Tooth Relic
http://www.mrbrownshow.com/2007/07/31/the-mrbrown-show-the-worshipping/ -
i second thatOriginally posted by Beyond Religion:If the tooth is real, its real. If it is not, it is not. The Buddha's greatest gift to us is the Dharma, not his tooth. Why are you so agitated about this? -
I am talking about Buddhism being not scientific. If there's faith based on the dharma only, then proof is secondary.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Why suddenly talk about me?
And what falsehoods are you talking about? -
Hi Beyond Religion and 7-11,
I don't think TheGoodEarth is agitated, just that as he is concern over the authenticity of the tooth relic in question as I am, there are some forummers who trying to divert or dodge this authenticity issue by presenting Buddhism as only a faith-based belief.
I also agree with you that Buddha's greatest gift is Dhamma itself. Hence I think we shouldn't even encourage people to venerate relics in the very first place. -
Apparently, we fail to recognise that not everyone thinks that Dharma is the greatest gift.Originally posted by SevenEleven:i second that
You are not agitated, good. But it is not wrong and necessary for the other lifeform on this planet NOT to suscribe to your viewpoint. Pls remmber we live in a big world with alot of pple of other perspective. Do not be selfish. I can CERTAINLY understand why they agitated. -
Almost missed this post.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I am talking about Buddhism being not scientific. If there's faith based on the dharma only, then proof is secondary.
I have always said, Buddhism is a scientific method. You need to have confidence that the triple gems will lead you to enlightenment, since uncountable others have done it even today and you can do it too, and practise the dharma. Then see the truths of the Buddha's teachings yourself.
I never said anything about blind faith. I think this is a topic adequately elaborated by a few forummers here. -
Exactly! This is why this Saha world is the best training ground so far! If everyone were to think the same, recognising that the Dharma is the most precious gift, then this will not be Saha world. This will be Pure Land.Originally posted by kangirisan:Apparently, we fail to recognise that not everyone thinks that Dharma is the greatest gift.
You are not agitated, good. But it is not wrong and necessary for the other lifeform on this planet NOT to suscribe to your viewpoint. Pls remmber we live in a big world with alot of pple of other perspective. Do not be selfish. I can CERTAINLY understand why they agitated.
But I would disagree to view that feeling as selfish. IMHO, it is like knowing the medicine will cure the illness but the patient just refuse to take the medicine and the emotion of fustration arise. But this fustration still arise out of concern and care for the greater good. This can be adjusted.
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Thanks for replying yamizi.Originally posted by yamizi:Hello oldkid,
Reply in dark blue again hehe =P
However, I think I'm more optimisitc.
I don't think the public will lose faith in Buddhism so easily. Also, as far as this issue is concerned, only humans made some comments here and there. We had forgotten about the Dharma Protectors and the Bodhisattvas who are working very hard right now to propagate Dharma. Although now is the Dharma ending age, things are still not that bad yet.
What I'm not so optimistic about, is the amount of slanders that will be made.
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Agitated? You have not read my all my posts carefully. Just because I elaborated and pointed out some distasteful aspects of this saga, your stomach certainly got agitated. Perhaps, you should re-read this:Originally posted by Beyond Religion:Actually, I don't see anyone in BWB denying anything about whether the tooth is real.
If the tooth is real, its real. If it is not, it is not. The Buddha's greatest gift to us is the Dharma, not his tooth. Why are you so agitated about this?Honestly, we all know the answer! But I am amazed at the GREAT DENIAL! The reluctance to face the issue squarely and instead project to so many 'conditions' - Faith, Dhamma, Liberation, etc.
There is no need for you to tell me the Dhamma is a great gift. Why make this quotation that every Buddhist knows and OUT OF CONTEXT? You are like the many here who choose to avoid the issue by denial and projection. The tooth in the Relic Temple is a great falsehood! Does the Dhamma condone falsehood????If the tooth is real, its real. If it is not, it is not.
This is a no brainer! What kind of logic is this? -
Oh? You got proof already that the tooth is fake one huh?Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:The tooth in the Relic Temple is a great falsehood! -
Hehe, I'm being a realist. Human comments, be it online or real life are very important. In the first place, probably many people hasn't get the correct idea of what Buddhism is.Originally posted by oldkid:Thanks for replying yamizi.
However, I think I'm more optimisitc.
I don't think the public will lose faith in Buddhism so easily. Also, as far as this issue is concerned, only humans made some comments here and there. We had forgotten about the Dharma Protectors and the Bodhisattvas who are working very hard right now to propagate Dharma. Although now is the Dharma ending age, things are still not that bad yet.
What I'm not so optimistic about, is the amount of slanders that will be made.
There are certain things that are the duties of the Bodhisattvas and Dhamma Protectors, however we cannot take Them for granted. There are some responsibilities that as a human buddhists we have to shoulder too. You cannot expect Bodhisattvas and Dhamma Protectors to just appear out of nowhere to teach Dhamma right? They work in subtle way that compliments what we, as buddhists, do in the Saha World.
The so-called Dhamma ending age will indeed come when no one bothers to understand and practice the Dhamma.
Slander, again will be a deliberate intend to say something that is not true. Was Siddhartha Gautama consider to be slandering the ascetics and brahmins during His time when He is not convince that what they taught is the solution to mankind's suffering? Put it back in this tooth relic saga case, this tooth relic is in much contraversy and I certainly don't think that would amount to slandering for people who genuinely wanting to find out what is the Truth.
However, if there are anyone with a deliberate intend or a failure in his or her duty to justify his or her claim on any methodologies or artifacts in the name of Lord Sakyamuni, I think that is slandering.
Buddhism is not a religion that is build by myth, Buddha was once a human, He lived in ancient India before, we have to be fair to both Buddha and the history of Buddhism to seek clarification.
If you are worrying that people who calls Buddhism a lie due to this issue as slandering, no worries, their deliberate intend in this manner would have due to the disorientation that is given by someone who was supposed to exercise his obligated duty as a bhinkhu. Those "Xin Fo Da Zhong" is not out of a deliberate intend to attack the Noble Triplegem.
Few years back, when Ven Fazhao organised the tooth relic and (I think) some other relics exhibition. Touch your heart and imagine (or if you have experience this) if people would have come to ask your opinions on whether or not should a buddhist venerate relics, what is/are your answers?
1. Yes! Please venerate and donate as much as you can as it will accumulate immeasurable merits!
2. You must absolute believe in it as it is organised by a monk of high status! No questions ask!
3. Don't question it as the tooth relic may punish you! (I heard this from a cabbie recently, it was quite hilarious)
4. Well you can treat it as viewing buddhist artifacts, however you need not take it too seriously.
5. I wonder where on earth do these bunch of relics appear suddenly, no idea are they for real or not.
6. It has nothing to do with personal cultivation as the true relic of the Buddha is Dhamma itself.
7. I think it is a subject worth reading up for, the meaning of relics and history of relics in Buddhism. This will probably enhance my knowledge in the Buddhist culture and further appreciate the Dhamma.
My answers are point 4 to 7.
How about you or anyone else who are reading this?
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My answer is 4, 6 and 7.
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The tooth is not human. Many experts said so. You and I know that the tooth is not human. So why are you pretending?Originally posted by oldkid:Oh? You got proof already that the tooth is fake one huh?
You got proof the tooth is human and it is the Buddha's?
Why not his way, conduct a poll. See how many here in this forum say the tooth is human? Like I said before, the issue is a very straightforward one but so many are blinded by faith and misunderstanding of the Dhamma - and anyhow quote and make use of it! -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
I see... many experts said so. You have strong faith in what the experts said?
The tooth is not human. Many experts said so. You and I know that the tooth is not human. So why are you pretending?
[b]You got proof the tooth is human and it is the Buddha's?
Why not his way, conduct a poll. See how many here in this forum say the tooth is human? Like I said before, the issue is a very straightforward one but so many are blinded by faith and misunderstanding of the Dhamma - and anyhow quote and make use of it![/b]
With our common understanding of teeth structures, of course the tooth do not look like it belong to human. But neither had we seen the Buddha when he was alive and how his teeth had looked like. There is no possible means to make comparison. Also the tooth so far is not even tested. If I'm a dental expert, I will also say the same thing based on appeareances.
There is no way you can get a good solid answer here. Polling in this forum will give you numbers of how many THINK it is real and how many THINK it is fake. If this is a good enough answer for you based on what people THINK, please start the ball rolling. -
So oldkid, do you THINK it is real?Originally posted by oldkid:I see... many experts said so. You have strong faith in what the experts said?
With our common understanding of teeth structures, of course the tooth do not look like it belong to human. But neither had we seen the Buddha when he was alive and how his teeth had looked like. There is no possible means to make comparison. Also the tooth so far is not even tested. If I'm a dental expert, I will also say the same thing based on appeareances.
There is no way you can get a good solid answer here. Polling in this forum will give you numbers of how many THINK it is real and how many THINK it is fake. If this is a good enough answer for you based on what people THINK, please start the ball rolling.
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Honestly if you ask me what I THINK, I'm not concerned if it is real or fake.Originally posted by yamizi:So oldkid, do you THINK it is real?
=)
The dentist had made very good comparison of the tooth with that of a human. From the illustration, comparison and explaination, it does not resemble human tooth. -
Haha you're not concern but definitely the dentist would have already given you enough points to allow you to have the impression that it is ____ .Originally posted by oldkid:Honestly if you ask me what I THINK, I'm not concerned if it is real or fake.
The dentist had made very good comparison of the tooth with that of a human. From the illustration, comparison and explaination, it does not resemble human tooth.
That is a THINKING too =)
Only dead people can't think right hehe. -
Originally posted by oldkid:
You have got yourself into a hole. First, you didn't answer the question posed by yamizi. You were EVASIVE. That is not even using your brain - how to talk about thinking?
Honestly if you ask me what I THINK, I'm not concerned if it is real or fake.
The dentist had made very good comparison of the tooth with that of a human. From the illustration, comparison and explaination, it does not resemble human tooth.
I do not just placed my faith or trust on the experts. I used my knowledge, common-sense and inference. Most of all, I used what the Dhamma taught me - to seek the truth, not just blindly believing, even if a monk told me so!
Looks like your answer is: it does not resemble human tooth, therefore, it is Buddha's. ????? -
My answer is also 4, 6 and 7
For all buddhists & non buddhists
The Buddha warned strongly against blind faith and encouraged the way of truthful inquiry. In one of His best known sermons, the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha pointed out the danger in fashioning one's beliefs merely on the following grounds: on hearsay, on tradition, because many others say it is so, on the authority of ancient scriptures, on the word of a supernatural being, or out of trust in one's teachers, elders, or priests. Instead one maintains an open mind and thoroughly investigates one's own experience of life. When one sees for oneself that a particular view agrees with both experience and reason, and leads to the happiness of one and all, then one should accept that view and live up to it!