Why will buddhism one day disappear from the world?
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Emptiness does NOT exist. How can something that is empty exists? The space that is between two objects... the space between the sun and the earth... the vacuum between the sun and the earth... how can the vacuum exist? It is a vacuum... it is empty... how can emptiness exists?Originally posted by path_seeker:Hmmmm. then if belief doesn't exist, what exist?
What we see, feel are are reality, but again, they are also emptiness. While we can be certain of the reality we can see/feel/touch, how do we know what to belief about emptiness? How do you convince the rest of the folks who don't do meditation, that Emptiness does exist?
Sure if I am talking to "the rest of the folks" I won't talk like this... I will tell them about the The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path
You must first realized The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path
Have you realized The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path?
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Emptiness is not a vacuum. Emptiness is the reality of ALL phenomena, it is not about some formless attribute of luminosity. In Buddhism, our luminous aspect has no monopoly.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Emptiness does NOT exist. How can something that is empty exists? The space that is between two objects... the space between the sun and the earth... the vacuum between the sun and the earth... how can the vacuum exist? It is a vacuum... it is empty... how can emptiness exists?
Sure if I am talking to "the rest of the folks" I won't talk like this... I will tell them about the The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path
You must first realized The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path
Have you realized The 4 Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path?
In Buddhism, we say that all phenomenon existence exhibit the characteristics of emptiness -- emptiness of inherent existence, and is ungraspable and unknowable. Being empty is not void, it just means that it arises as interdependent origination, conditioned arising, with no separate existence. -
*sigh* Just as a vacuum does not exist, just as, similarly, like a vacuum that does not exist, "emptiness" is not a thing that exists. *sigh*Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Emptiness is not a vacuum. Emptiness is the reality of ALL phenomena, it is not about some formless attribute of luminosity. In Buddhism, our luminous aspect has no monopoly.
In Buddhism, we say that all phenomenon existence exhibit the characteristics of emptiness -- emptiness of inherent existence, and is ungraspable and unknowable. Being empty is not void, it just means that it arises as interdependent origination, conditioned arising, with no separate existence. -
I agree that emptiness is not a 'thing' (emptiness is also empty), what I'm talking about now is emptiness is not a 'void'.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:*sigh* Just as a vacuum does not exist, just as, similarly, like a vacuum that does not exist, "emptiness" is not a thing that exists. *sigh* -
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.htmlOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Do not sit with a mind fixed on emptiness.
If you do, you will fall into a neutral kind of emptiness.
Emptiness includes the sun, moon, stars and planets,
The great earth, mountains and rivers,
All trees and grasses,
Bad people and good people,
Bad things and good things,
Heaven and hell;
They are all in the midst of emptiness.
- Hui-neng (638-713)
6. The nature Presence is Empty
Not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’.
Pristine Awareness cannot be contained within a 6-foot body -- neither within nor without. The ‘bond’ makes it so.
All is Presence! But “TONGSss…” is radically different from “the blue sky”…. When conditions are, there is. There is no need for a 'who', ‘when’ or ‘where’, only causes and conditions are necessary. This is its nature.
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
-- the principle of conditionality
The self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.
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Yes, but if you keep preaching "emptiness exists"! "emptiness exists"! you are preaching delusion and so I hope you will be careful what you preach and how you preach it.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I agree that emptiness is not a 'thing' (emptiness is also empty), what I'm talking about now is emptiness is not a 'void'. -
Yes I agree with you on this part.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Yes, but if you keep preaching "emptiness exists"! "emptiness exists"! you are preaching delusion and so I hope you will be careful what you preach and how you preach it. -
Yes. I know you will agree because you are an exceptional teenager and you operate on logic and not ego. *sigh* How did you become so good... but I fear for you because if you are not careful, you will fall very badly... and yet you cannot progress unless you fall very badly and overcome that fall... only then will your eyes be truly opened.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes I agree with you on this part.
There is a danger that you might fall and never rise up and there is also a danger that you might never fall... *sigh* -
Fall into what? Longkang?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Yes. I know you will agree because you are an exceptional teenager and you operate on logic and not ego. *sigh* How did you become so good... but I fear for you because if you are not careful, you will fall very badly... and yet you cannot progress unless you fall very badly and overcome that fall... only then will your eyes be truly opened.
There is a danger that you might fall and never rise up and there is also a danger that you might never fall... *sigh*
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You wish...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Fall into what? Longkang? -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You wish...
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Just think how many people truly seek the dharma and want liberation...Originally posted by justdoit77:Something really puzzle me is why will buddhism still one day disappear from our world. Since every now and then there are some great masters appear in the world to ensure the dharma will continue to spread to sentient beings.
In fact after buddhism diminish from India, it flourish in country like china, tibet, and now even to the whole world. It is in upward trend.
By right the number of people who become enlightened should be increasing over time, likewise for the englightened being who vow to come back to the world.
The great masters like padmasambhava, karmapa, xuan zhuang and so on should be able to come back to our world to guide us on the buddhism path or better still achieve another heir day or miracle.
We have a lot of unseen dharma protectors around to help the continuation of the buddha teaching too.
Is it because our society become more and more complicated due to technology improvement and competition arise?
And how many people out there who are not Buddhists, and how many Buddhists out there who are just Buddhist by name and in reality only want mundane benefits... worst still so many 'Buddhists' who actually arent Buddhist and are superstitious, and those chinese folks practitioners who are just IC-Buddhist. -
Opened to what?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:only then will your eyes be truly opened. -
Opened to REALITY... you are at the moment "mind mapping" reality and what you have are mental images of reality. Mental Images of REALITY is NOT REALITY. You are seeking for MORE than REALITY...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Opened to what?
Buddhism is right. Humans replace one MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY with another MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY.
I wonder if Buddhism itself realize this... because it seems clear that Buddhist disciples themselves are replacing a highly delusional Mental Image of Reality by non Buddhists with their own Buddhist Mental Image of REALITY (less delusional but nevertheless simply another MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY) instead of REALITY. -
Well I do agree...Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Opened to REALITY... you are at the moment "mind mapping" reality and what you have are mental images of reality. Mental Images of REALITY is NOT REALITY. You are seeking for MORE than REALITY...
Buddhism is right. Humans replace one MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY with another MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY.
I wonder if Buddhism itself realize this... because it seems clear that Buddhist disciples themselves are replacing a highly delusional Mental Image of Reality by non Buddhists with their own Buddhist Mental Image of REALITY (less delusional but nevertheless simply another MENTAL IMAGE of REALITY) instead of REALITY.
Opening to reality requires practice. 8 Fold Path. Wisdom/insight. -
What is the relationship between practicing 8 Fold Path with Emptiness and No-self? Emptiness and No-self IS the rationale behind the 8 Fold Path.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Well I do agree...
Opening to reality requires practice. 8 Fold Path. Wisdom/insight.
If you know Emptiness and No-self, the 8 Fold Path takes on a significance more than "guidance"; more than "commandments" more than rules and regulations.
You become the 8 Fold Path. How do you "become the 8 Fold Path".? hmmmmm..... -
Good topic.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:What is the relationship between practicing 8 Fold Path with Emptiness and No-self? Emptiness and No-self IS the rationale behind the 8 Fold Path.
If you know Emptiness and No-self, the 8 Fold Path takes on a significance more than "guidance"; more than "commandments" more than rules and regulations.
You become the 8 Fold Path. How do you "become the 8 Fold Path".? hmmmmm.....
Morality -- no self, no thought, without intention and effort, yet all precepts are abided. That is the level achievement of precept, there's a name for it but can't remember.
Samadhi -- no self, no duality, samadhi in self-nature 24/7, the gateless samadhi without trance, without entering and leaving. Every moment is samadhi, every arising/manifestation is the manifestation of Dharmakaya, Subject has always been the Object of observation.
Wisdom -- no self, no duality, wisdom into Emptiness, liberating insights, the knot of ignorance untangled.
7 factors of enlightenment present.
Yi fa guan tong -
Going back to the thread title: if Buddhism disappears from the world, that's when it becomes irrelevant. It has been over 2,500 years and whether it will continue for another 2,500 years is anyone's guess.
It is essential to look at the fundamentals, what gave rise to Buddhism. Or more correctly, history. It is a fact that many 'beliefs' and philosophies already existed long before Gautama was born! And after him, came Jesus, Mohammad, and a lot of others!
I would see it this way: the problems of human and the society he lives in (comptemporary) gave rise to many philosophical thoughts. These thoughts became guidelines, and later teachings, which are either practise assiduously by certain groups or nominally by others. The groups made the effort to preserve and propagate the teachings. The teachings got mixed up with spiritual beliefs (which already existed a long time before), thus becoming religions. In some cases, the thoughts which became guidelines and which became teachings became words of God or messages from God!
Going by history, it is quite possible for Buddhism or any religion to go the way of the dinosaurs! -
The teaching is always relevant and valid throughout the 6 realms of samsara including the human civilization be it future or past.
According to my teacher, in order to get to know buddhism teaching, one needs a lot of good karma, when the human has gradually used up their good karma, that is when the teaching will disappear.
When that is going to happen, being able to hear one mantra or one bodhisatva name is considered very rare and lucky.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
Going back to the thread title: if Buddhism disappears from the world, that's when it becomes irrelevant. It has been over 2,500 years and whether it will continue for another 2,500 years is anyone's guess.
It is essential to look at the fundamentals, what gave rise to Buddhism. Or more correctly, history. It is a fact that many 'beliefs' and philosophies already existed long before Gautama was born! And after him, came Jesus, Mohammad, and a lot of others!
I would see it this way: the problems of human and the society he lives in (comptemporary) gave rise to many philosophical thoughts. These thoughts became guidelines, and later teachings, which are either practise assiduously by certain groups or nominally by others. The groups made the effort to preserve and propagate the teachings. The teachings got mixed up with spiritual beliefs (which already existed a long time before), thus becoming religions. In some cases, the thoughts which became guidelines and which became teachings [b]became words of God or messages from God!
Going by history, it is quite possible for Buddhism or any religion to go the way of the dinosaurs!
[/b] -
That's right. As long as there is suffering and unawakened sentient beings, Buddhism is always relevant.Originally posted by justdoit77:The teaching is always relevant and valid throughout the 6 realms of samsara including the human civilization be it future or past.
According to my teacher, in order to get to know buddhism teaching, one needs a lot of good karma, when the human has gradually used up their good karma, that is when the teaching will disappear.
When that is going to happen, being able to hear one mantra or one bodhisatva name is considered very rare and lucky. -
Originally posted by justdoit77:
on the True ultimate perspective, BuddhaDharma WILL always be there. but conventionally however, sentient being's understanding rise and fall in the Truth of Impermanence and Change.
Something really puzzle me is why will buddhism still one day disappear from our world. Since every now and then there are some great masters appear in the world to ensure the dharma will continue to spread to sentient beings.
it might appear that Buddhism is picking up a little, but wouldn't for long wan, i heard abt 100 years only. we need to zoom out our view more, our life even if give you max of 100 years can easily judge wrongly. as u Think u see it's rising. don't believe our view, until you at least reach Arahathood.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
that's why i prefer to use the word 'Change' in replace of emptiness/kong for nowaday's understanding.
I agree that emptiness is not a 'thing' (emptiness is also empty), what I'm talking about now is emptiness is not a 'void'.
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Hello,
My opinions in dark blue.Originally posted by justdoit77:
Something really puzzle me is why will buddhism still one day disappear from our world. Since every now and then there are some great masters appear in the world to ensure the dharma will continue to spread to sentient beings.
Firstly, how do one actually define great masters? Great masters may ensure spread of Dhamma but that alone will not be sufficient without the help of all buddhists, ordained and lay alike. The various masters may evolve into an issue of individualistic sectarianism. That buddhists will be busy trying to recruit people into their organisations respectively. As different organisations tend to have a different objective in mind. Some would prone more to charity, some prone more to meditation, some prone more to academic writing, etc. This seems to suggest that though on the surface we looky united but under that crust, we are not really so.
In fact after buddhism diminish from India, it flourish in country like china, tibet, and now even to the whole world. It is in upward trend.
The diminish in India, if you are refering to history, is largely due to that Buddhism had integrated too much of non-buddhistic elements which in terms, doctrinal wise we were no longer in upper hand. Compliment with the violence from a particular religion that surppressed upon buddhism as monastries had a lot of gold and monetary items donated by laity and kings alike.
By right the number of people who become enlightened should be increasing over time, likewise for the englightened being who vow to come back to the world.
That is why we cannot rely people who made vow (not say we shouldn't make vow) because vow doesn't guarantee to an instant fullfillment. So to a very large extend we have ourselves to rely in the spreading of Dhamma.
The great masters like padmasambhava, karmapa, xuan zhuang and so on should be able to come back to our world to guide us on the buddhism path or better still achieve another heir day or miracle.
This we will not know and we shouldn't speculate what happened to them after their demise.
We have a lot of unseen dharma protectors around to help the continuation of the buddha teaching too.
Maybe, maybe not. To my understanding, Dhamma Protectors only help those who "turn the Dhamma wheel".
Is it because our society become more and more complicated due to technology improvement and competition arise?
I think that contributes a large part too. Every moment we receive so many information and our mind becomes very distracted. The competitions in the material world for survival probably has become some tough that spiritual advancement would be the last thing in most people's minds. The good part of Buddhism is that actually Buddhism is a very practical religion. The Noble Eightfold Paths, having one of it to be Right Livelihood, is applicable to one's life. One shouldn't restrict the definition on cultivation to chanting in temple, group meditation, etc. One can do simply morning or evening puja to remind one's faith in the Triplegem and meditate at home. However, I believe most of us urban dwellers' lives would be schooling, working, etc. This is the best time to put Buddhism to use as well. The various moralities, values, how we perceive and react to different situations that keep presenting before us.
Every single moment is the time to practice. Irregards to where you are, as long as one's heart is forthcoming and honest, that is the dao chang itself. Every buddhist is the ambassadors of the Good Dhamma.
The Dhamma will only cease when no one bothers to take faith, understand, practice and expound the Good Dhamma. -
Back to the title thread:
As long as Buddhism is practical, relevant and common-sensical, it will remain. As a philosophy, Buddhism is great. But if it degenerates into a religion of blind faith, legends and customary rites and rituals - it will go the way of the dinosaurs.
Do recognise that as more people become educated, has access to information and vigorous exchanges in Internet forums, religious dogmas and gods are no longer sacred grounds that cannot be questions, reviled and even ridiculed. -
that's what I mentioned by help the continuation of buddha teaching.Originally posted by justdoit77:
We have a lot of unseen dharma protectors around to help the continuation of the buddha teaching too.
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[quote]Originally posted by yamizi:Maybe, maybe not. To my understanding, Dhamma Protectors only help those who "turn the Dhamma wheel".