lets hope taiwan problem can be solved peacefully
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this problem getting more and more complex .
lastime only China Communist Party and Kuo Ming Tang are involved , now Democratic Progressive Party gets involved too . -
Why does communist china want Taiwan? Because Taiwan's economy and infrastructure is good, and being greedy, it just wants to expand its territory. If Taiwan were backward, i don't think they'd even want to care about it. This was why they gave it to the Japanese in 1895.
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Interesting ... where did you get this piece of wrong history? You should read modern Chinese history starting from the 1911 uprising again the Manchu Chin dynasty. Then the Japanese invasion of China. Then the beginning of Communist China and KMT.Originally posted by sanath:Why does communist china want Taiwan? Because Taiwan's economy and infrastructure is good, and being greedy, it just wants to expand its territory. If Taiwan were backward, i don't think they'd even want to care about it. This was why they gave it to the Japanese in 1895.
Then you will know why China wants Taiwan. Do remember this: Taiwan is not a separate and different country from the old China before communism and KMT. It is KMT who created ROC. Actually another name for Taiwan is Formosa. -
Hmm what has this got to do with Buddhism?
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gt , cos buddhism oppose to using violent ways to settle disputes .
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Hi,
in one of the books on Taiwan history, it quotes from the diary of the Prime Minister of the Qing Dynasty during Cixi's reign, Li Hongzhang who wrote, "The Taiwanese (Formosans) are neither with us nor of us" and so he ceded Taiwan (Formosa) to the Japanese in 1895.
Now i have Taiwanese friends at the University in Kyoto that i am studying at. And not anyone of them wants Taiwan to be reunited with communist china, and they also regard Taiwan as a separate country from china. One of them (a guy) even said to me factly, "if china and Taiwan were to have a war, even if i am in Japan i will go back and fight for Taiwan" In fact, Chiang Kai-shek did make a statement when ROC pulled out of the UN that, "now, the Republic of China is no longer in existence", only that he stopped short of calling Taiwan an independent country, probably because he still dreamt of recovering mainland china from the communists. Of course, he died before he could fulfill that.
Another fact is that the older generation of local Taiwanese (Ben Shen Ren) felt that the Japanese were better colonisers than when the KMT came in. Do not forget, who was responsible for the 228 incident. -
Originally posted by sanath:Hi,
in one of the books on Taiwan history, it quotes from the diary of the Prime Minister of the Qing Dynasty during Cixi's reign, Li Hongzhang who wrote, "The Taiwanese (Formosans) are neither with us nor of us" and so he ceded Taiwan (Formosa) to the Japanese in 1895.
Correct, if it wasn't part of China originally, how cud the Manchu cede it to Japan? Hong Kong was also ceded to Britain for 100 years. China in the 19th became weak with Western colonisation.
Now i have Taiwanese friends at the University in Kyoto that i am studying at. And not anyone of them wants Taiwan to be reunited with communist china, and they also regard Taiwan as a separate country from china. One of them (a guy) even said to me factly, "if china and Taiwan were to have a war, even if i am in Japan i will go back and fight for Taiwan" In fact, Chiang Kai-shek did make a statement when ROC pulled out of the UN that, "now, the Republic of China is no longer in existence", only that he stopped short of calling Taiwan an independent country, probably because he still dreamt of recovering mainland china from the communists. Of course, he died before he could fulfill that.
That is correct, the KMT still holds itself as the ruler and authority of whole China. The fact that ROC came about was precisely this: a govt in exile! And it wanted legitimacy by being admitted into UN. As for Japan and US - their positions are clearly selfish - they want a China divided! If the Chinese fight amongst themselves, it will not be a threat to Japan and USA. Your friend wants to fight for Taiwan - hahaaha, you believe? Very naive. No Japanese or Americans will want to die for the Chinese. It is different if they are soldiers!
Another fact is that the older generation of local Taiwanese (Ben Shen Ren) felt that the Japanese were better colonisers than when the KMT came in. Do not forget, who was responsible for the 228 incident.
There is this: between the devil and the deep blue sea. Neither are angels to the locals or indigeneous Taiwanese. Both are 'colonial', only difference: which is lesser of the two evils? -
My friend is NOT a Japanese, he is a Taiwanese, if you read my post correctly. Taiwan probably did belong to mainland china in the past (Qing), but if you ask any Taiwanese now if it belongs to communist china, they'd probably say NO!
One way for reunification is maybe if china ceases to be a communist state, but that will probably not happen in our lifetime. -
I would say that China is a communist state in name only. I also agree that some countries want to contain China by keeping it divided.
I only wish that someday they will be peacefully re-united. -
OK, the mistaken part - sorry.Originally posted by sanath:My friend is NOT a Japanese, he is a Taiwanese, if you read my post correctly. Taiwan probably did belong to mainland china in the past (Qing), but if you ask any Taiwanese now if it belongs to communist china, they'd probably say NO!
One way for reunification is maybe if china ceases to be a communist state, but that will probably not happen in our lifetime.
Reunification between communist and non-communist can be achieved either:
1) with some form of bloodshed (Vietnam is a good example)
2) end of the old guards (Germany)
There is no perfect political system - whether communist or otherwise. That's why it is easier to bank on Eternal Hope and Wisdom Bliss!
Eternal Hope - forever, and ever hoping
Wisdom Bliss - wise to be ignorant -
act I support ROC as an independent country .
however china has been brainwashing their citizens by including taiwan as its territory in their school syllabus .
u know yao ming visited taiwan remembering the ri yue tang in their textbook .
ROC is nt an exile government .
it has not been overthrown .
overthrown means losing all its original territory like soviet union .
ROC originally hold taiwan as part of its territory .
it still retain parts of it original territory .
during kmt's reign , they include all of china in the territory cos they wanna reclaim it back with usa help .
they did not eventually reclaim mainland china .
in my eyes , ROC (taiwan ) is an independent state .
forever , it is best that it changes its name to republic of taiwan .
as in UN do not wanna recognise taiwan is because of interest .
china oppose having diplomatic ties with countries that recognises ROC .
picture this , if mainland china has been split equally like south and north korea , would PRC still faile to recognise roc as a legal state .
even though taiwan is part of china in part of its history , it does not mean taiwan is forever part of china .
countries can and have been divided by war .
I hope china will 1 day turn democratic and hold a referendum to decide taiwan's fate .
even if they take back taiwan by force , those taiwanese wont be happy . -
but most opinion poll shows only a few ppl think they are ppl of china .Originally posted by Beyond Religion:I would say that China is a communist state in name only. I also agree that some countries want to contain China by keeping it divided.
I only wish that someday they will be peacefully re-united.
most think of being taiwanese . -
I support democracy and hence I believe whether Taiwan want to be reunited with China or be an independent state is up to the Taiwanese to decide.
On the hind sight, we need to look at why China is so depersate to avoid Taiwan independency. Various regions in China are eyeing for independency too, such as Tibet, XinJiang region etc. If Taiwan succeed in her independent quest, what message will it send to the rest of the separatist regions?
They have the chance to become independent too. When that time comes, China will be throw into a mass chaos. Hence, at all cost, Mainland China will never allow an independent Taiwan. -
china got so much land area,
why bother about taiwan,
if the taiwanese do not want to be reunited,
what is the point of forcing them? -
Various regions in China are eyeing for independency too, such as Tibet, XinJiang region etc. If Taiwan succeed in her independent quest, what message will it send to the rest of the separatist regions?Originally posted by uncle_abc:china got so much land area,
why bother about taiwan,
if the taiwanese do not want to be reunited,
what is the point of forcing them?
They have the chance to become independent too. When that time comes, China will be throw into a mass chaos. Hence, at all cost, Mainland China will never allow an independent Taiwan. -
hmmmm .... an interesting history written by Taiwanese or KMT or you?Originally posted by goldevil:ROC is nt an exile government .
it has not been overthrown .
overthrown means losing all its original territory like soviet union .
ROC originally hold taiwan as part of its territory .
it still retain parts of it original territory .
during kmt's reign , they include all of china in the territory cos they wanna reclaim it back with usa help .
they did not eventually reclaim mainland china .
1) Before CPC and KMT - there was Imperial China. Formosa was like any island off the coast of mainland China. There was no question on territorial sovereignity. The KMT came to power but was challenged by CPC. The home base of KMT was Sichuan, not Taiwan!!!!
2) Civil wars ensued b/w KMT and CPC. It was pretty bloody. Chinese killing Chinese and Japanese killing Chinese! There was brief truce - cooperate to fight common enemy - Japanese. Then after, fight one another.
3) Mao's Red Army managed to rout KMT, and they fleed to Taiwan. Red Army did not cross the straits and KMT was spared. KMT still holds itself as the govt of all China. Therefore, it is a govt. in exile!!! It set up ROC - C stands for China!
I am actually quite appalled by your narration BUT I can understand - you are for 'democratic' Taiwan. You know, the Japanese never admit they massacred thousands of innocent Chinese in Nanjing. I hope you won't be like the Japanese. It is one thing to pledge your loyalty to whatever you believed, but it is wrong to twist the truth!!! -
oh, another part of history .....
1) The KMT never felt secured. It invited the Americans to Taiwan, buy American arms and buy American real estate. Families of CKS lived in US.
2) The Japanese sided KMT in Taiwan. Strange? Bcos KMT also fought the Japanese in mainland China but how come so nice to CKS and KMT? Isn't this obvious? First, Taiwan was occupied by Japan before. Second, CPC hated the Japanese (in fact, all Chinese should except maybe CKS and company). So, the Japs used this opportunity to cause further division.
3) China at the time was really really very very weak. It was in no position to prolong any war or fight any new war. It was a very devastated country - bombed by Japanese, occupied by German, British and Portuguese - east, south and west!
4) So, China was too busy rebuilding. This allowed KMT plenty of time and opportunity to build Taiwan as ROC.
Between the Hongkies and Taiwanese - I have greater respect for the Hongkies than the Taiwanese. I cannot see why many Silliporeans admire Taiwan. It may be democratic. So what? There are just as many democratic countries in the the world. None of the Taiwanese leaders are admirable. Nelson Mandela can beat all of them many many times over! -
Well the fact is that the KMT no longer holds power in Taiwan now (dont forget DPP is in power, at least until the next election next year), and not forgetting even Chiang Kai-shek himself admitted when ROC was removed from UN that "ROC is no longer in existence" (this i heard from my Taiwanese friend), but had just stopped short of calling Taiwan "Republic of Taiwan".
Talking about Hong Kong, well, not all are happy that it got reunified with China. Remember the number of protests that have happened in Hong Kong over the past decade against the central China government? Even my Hong Kong friend in University here was very unhappy on the anniversary of HK's reunification, because she felt that the HKers have not benefitted at all from the reunification. With that, do you think that the Taiwanese will ever agree to the "one country, two systems"?
And of course, not forgetting that Tibet and Xinjiang were taken by force in the 1950s, it is no wonder that these two regions want independence from the mainland. -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:
just curious only. u born in china? or you read the history stuff from books?
...
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KMT still holds power in Taiwan, the majority of the paliament is with KMT, just that the head of state is a DPP.Originally posted by sanath:Well the fact is that the KMT no longer holds power in Taiwan now (dont forget DPP is in power, at least until the next election next year), and not forgetting even Chiang Kai-shek himself admitted when ROC was removed from UN that "ROC is no longer in existence" (this i heard from my Taiwanese friend), but had just stopped short of calling Taiwan "Republic of Taiwan".
As for Chiang Kai Shek? Come on, this is a guy that tried collaborating with the japs, abandoned his fellowman in mainland/nanjing and subsequently lost the whole of China. besides, he is dead for like 30+ years already..
Sun Yat sen's greatest mistake would be to pass the leadership of China to him.
protest are common in HK even during the British rule, besides, the protests that Hkers made are to their own domestic policies with the local Hk govt. Nothing to do with the central govt in Beijing.
Talking about Hong Kong, well, not all are happy that it got reunified with China. Remember the number of protests that have happened in Hong Kong over the past decade against the central China government? Even my Hong Kong friend in University here was very unhappy on the anniversary of HK's reunification, because she felt that the HKers have not benefitted at all from the reunification.
Tibet would be worst off if they had their independence..they were one of the poorest country in the world. Although chinese rule was suppressive in the 50s, much of tht has ease. Now is an economic boomtime for china's western area. There is no real support for independent from tibetians in tibet anyway..
And of course, not forgetting that Tibet and Xinjiang were taken by force in the 1950s, it is no wonder that these two regions want independence from the mainland.
As for xinjiang, its the muslim terrorist that wants independence. U want another Taliban? -
yes, totally agree.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:Interesting ... where did you get this piece of wrong history? You should read modern Chinese history starting from the 1911 uprising again the Manchu Chin dynasty. Then the Japanese invasion of China. Then the beginning of Communist China and KMT.
Then you will know why China wants Taiwan. Do remember this: Taiwan is not a separate and different country from the old China before communism and KMT. It is KMT who created ROC. Actually another name for Taiwan is Formosa. -
It is just a politician's diary.
Taiwan is always part of china, if anyone who don't like to be china citizen, he can always fill up the papers and migrate to other country. For example, if Ahmad who owned a landed property want to break out from singapore, the most he can do is migrate, he can't declare the land that he stay as independent. That is the universal law.
Many people don't favor the idea of reunification because China is a communism country. But the ideology of a country is not the one determine its territory. One can't assume if for example Singapore become constitutional monarchy, the territory must change due to that.
Chiang Kai-shek never in his lifetime think that Taiwan is not part of China, even now the KMT still regard the outer Mongolia as part of China.
228 incident is a tragedy, that was caused by a party if not a few people in and out of ROC who hold the power. But it has got nothing to do with whether Taiwan is part of China or not.
A lot of Taiwanese was brainwashed during the japanese occupation, one of them is the former KMT leader Lee Teng Hui that is also the one who secretly promote Taiwan independence when he was in power. He even openly mentioned that he is loyal to the Japan royal family. Many taiwan youngsters dislike China is due to his anti-china policy & propaganda.Originally posted by sanath:Hi,
in one of the books on Taiwan history, it quotes from the diary of the Prime Minister of the Qing Dynasty during Cixi's reign, Li Hongzhang who wrote, "The Taiwanese (Formosans) are neither with us nor of us" and so he ceded Taiwan (Formosa) to the Japanese in 1895.
Now i have Taiwanese friends at the University in Kyoto that i am studying at. And not anyone of them wants Taiwan to be reunited with communist china, and they also regard Taiwan as a separate country from china. One of them (a guy) even said to me factly, "if china and Taiwan were to have a war, even if i am in Japan i will go back and fight for Taiwan" In fact, Chiang Kai-shek did make a statement when ROC pulled out of the UN that, "now, the Republic of China is no longer in existence", only that he stopped short of calling Taiwan an independent country, probably because he still dreamt of recovering mainland china from the communists. Of course, he died before he could fulfill that.
Another fact is that the older generation of local Taiwanese (Ben Shen Ren) felt that the Japanese were better colonisers than when the KMT came in. Do not forget, who was responsible for the 228 incident. -
last time i went to taiwan, the taxi driver felt that Taiwan are too Over democratic as compare to Singapore's Kiasi-ism. and it's going too dangerously to the extreme side of freedom.
peace with middle way, my friend.
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siao.... i tot now china's ecomomic doing very well and may even overtake US in the future. most countries either jealous and want it to go down.... or .....want a ride or share of it, except taiwan? cannot get.
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Originally posted by sanath:Talking about Hong Kong, well, not all are happy that it got reunified with China. Remember the number of protests that have happened in Hong Kong over the past decade against the central China government? Even my Hong Kong friend in University here was very unhappy on the anniversary of HK's reunification, because she felt that the HKers have not benefitted at all from the reunification. With that, do you think that the Taiwanese will ever agree to the "one country, two systems"?
Human nature is such: no matter what is done with the best of good intention, there will always be some disgrunted, unhappy, dissatisfied people. Even if you give freely, some are also not happy. To me, that few individuals are not more important than the society at large. If you have to cater to each and every individual wishes and likings, there will be no end.
My take is this: unhappy or dissatisfied - either you doing something to make it better or go find another place where you can hold your peace.
And of course, not forgetting that Tibet and Xinjiang were taken by force in the 1950s, it is no wonder that these two regions want independence from the mainland.
For that matter, Inner Mongolia today is not part of original China. The Great Wall of China actually marked the boundary of ancient China - from north to south, and east to west. Tibet, Xinjiang and Manchuria were not Han China. Han China was invaded by the Mongols who set up the Yuan dynasty and made Beijing the capital. Manchuria also invaded Han China and set up the Qing dynasty.
That aside, personally, I think both Tibet and Xinjiang should be returned to its own people. They have not been really part of China but was annexed or occupied by China. Together, Tibet and Xinjiang is about 1/3 the whole of present day China, so you can see why China will never return these two regions. That's why the insurgents and rebels for independence. I feel sorry for them.