Are they still Buddhists without Karma and other fantastics?
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
don't care abt "Scientific theory" or "religion"..simply the rational of cause and effect.
Kindly read all my arguments with AEN.
Scientific theory doesn't fit with religion.
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Originally posted by Isis:
say this morning you DID something wrong or good...then at the present moment you feel guilty or happy of what you Did. so is the action that had been done empty? can the past action be Undone?
so karma is empty or not ?
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As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always.Originally posted by sinweiy:don't care abt "Scientific theory" or "religion"..simply the rational of cause and effect.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
can't accept you "said" so.
As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always.
example or proof there's no cause and effect pls.
ps: and u "think" u understand Dharma.
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sinweiy, you have a tendency to purposefully misread my postings.Originally posted by sinweiy:can't accept you "said" so.
example or proof there's no cause and effect pls.
ps: and u "think" u understand Dharma.
/\As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
i know. but as i said i cannot accept this kind of self-centric answer like "As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always." who u or why should i accept or believe u without an example or proof?
sinweiy, you have a tendency to purposefully misread my postings.
quote:
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As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always.
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i can also say "cause and effect is rational always".
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I have also asked the same questions to Christians: Why tell me to believe in something that cannot be proven by science? Of course, Christians do have many books and other relevant materials that sought to explain from various angles and evidence, that science complements Christianity and vice versa. But now I think I don't need to.
Because I now choose to focus on similarities which are important in the sense that they advocate or teach values common to most world religions which has survived the ravages of Time and insecurities of men. Values and behaviour that should be learnt by any man regardless of race or religion.
The strong insistence on using any scientific theories or knowledge discovered by and known to men, to prove the validity of religious concepts and doctrines will, in my personal opinion, hardly yield anything but more and more excitement initially, but resentment later on the part of the questioner and maybe the person to whom the question is posed.
Such highly intellectual individuals who pose questions that seemingly ask for logic and scientific evidence, are themselves people who have not had a particular religion or belief in most of their lives for the simple reason that he doesn't need or want to. Most of them have absolutely no intention to accept anything less than what is reported in and scientifically proven by the mass media. They belong to groups such as free-thinkers, atheists, academics, and/or a scientist. The list goes on to any group or type of people of course.
If you are not open to accepting anything but science, human logic and philosophy alone, why waste your time to so-called ask questions regarding any religion?
Just my personal opinion on what I have observed about others and myself. -
sounds well and good, so tell me, how do you differentiate between reality and delusion if you are not interested in proof and evidence?
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Remember I did mention before in my previous arguments about Chaos theory and that there may be no cause to an effect or no effect to a cause.Originally posted by sinweiy:i know. but as i said i cannot accept this kind of self-centric answer like "As I said before, cause and effect is not rational always." who u or why should i accept or believe u without an example or proof?
i can also say "cause and effect is rational always".
/\ -
I told you many times, that is a complete misunderstanding of Chaos theory.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Remember I did mention before in my previous arguments about Chaos theory and that there may be no cause to an effect or no effect to a cause.
Dependent OriginationOriginally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyway Chaos Theory is really good. It really corresponds with Buddhism's interdependent co-arising teaching of Emptiness. Regarding this see recent thread, Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?
Thusness says, Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.
the isolation of a specific individual action is a conditioned perceptual action in itself. whereas a sensitive, open, honest, generous enquiry eventually reveals the indivisible continuum or matrix of activity. the unfolding of the matrix, through the agency of action, has a single governing principle: causality. the simple, and irrefutable, law of cause and effect. this law is universal. it is the order of the universe: as applicable to galaxies and stars as it is to amoebas and multicelled organisms. according to this unique principle of existence all actions are simultaneously effect and cause of all other actions. this renders all actions that have actually happened, are happening, or will happen, inextricable from their matrix, and inevitable within it. -
right...i forgot another important element to cause and effect, which is conditions.
cause+conditions= effect
in that sense. past-action determinism is not exactly right, nor is randomism.
fixed on the idea of determinism is not the Dharma and fixed on the idea of randomism is also not Dharma. both are extremism and not according to middle way.
that say Dharma doesn't fixed the Dharma (fa wu ting fa).
all is mind's projection. so if u can think of anything with the mind, it's all possible. mind is the all powerful.
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based on cause+conditions=effect, the past cannot be Undone, but we can still undone the present effect by not adding the conditions(yuan).
Originally posted by Isis:
so karma is empty or not ?
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say this morning you DID something wrong or good...then at the present moment you feel guilty or happy of what you Did. so is the action that had been done empty? can the past action be Undone?
so it's the Functionailty of karma that is NOT Empty.
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Absence of inherent existence is not the same as non-existing.... you need to realize this first before you can talk of whether cause/effect is empty or not.
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Why the fark quote Thusness, what nonsense? If Chaos is so easily mastered then things become very easy to predict.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Dependent Origination
the isolation of a specific individual action is a conditioned perceptual action in itself. whereas a sensitive, open, honest, generous enquiry eventually reveals the indivisible continuum or matrix of activity. the unfolding of the matrix, through the agency of action, has a single governing principle: causality. the simple, and irrefutable, law of cause and effect. this law is universal. it is the order of the universe: as applicable to galaxies and stars as it is to amoebas and multicelled organisms. according to this unique principle of existence all actions are simultaneously effect and cause of all other actions. this renders all actions that have actually happened, are happening, or will happen, inextricable from their matrix, and inevitable within it. -
And what the fark are you talking aboutOriginally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Why the fark quote Thusness, what nonsense? If Chaos is so easily mastered then things become very easy to predict.
Chaos Theory means NON-determinism, meaning nonpreditability. -
Then what the fark are you talking about? If it's non-predictable then it's totally chaotic. Hence everything is independent not dependent.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:And what the fark are you talking about
Chaos Theory means NON-determinism, meaning nonpreditability. -
Out of chaos, sometimes, not always, you get a beautiful form.. but the beautiful form remains at its roots, "chaotic".
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Oh my Buddha... have you just forgotten the entire thread of posts which I tried to explain to you that simple concept?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Then what the fark are you talking about? If it's non-predictable then it's totally chaotic. Hence everything is independent not dependent.
PLS read carefully:
----------------Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyway Chaos Theory is really good. It really corresponds with Buddhism's interdependent co-arising teaching of Emptiness. Regarding this see recent thread, Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?
Thusness says, Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.
When I talk about conditioned arising or dependent origination, it doesn't have to be a perceivable order. And furthermore conditioned arising works non-locally as well, for example the Aspect's experiment that proves that subatomic particles can communicate with each other instantaneously regardless of distance, whether 10 metres or 10 billion miles away.
An excerpt from the transcript of Informal discussions of Lankavatara Sutra by Thusness on Skype:
...Because, you see, in Buddhism when we talk about Non-Duality, we are saying something like the Dependent Origination. Because of This, That Is. This arises, That arises. This ceases, That ceases. We look at the entire formation, there is no “Who?” Where is the “Who?” When we ask “Where?”, there is no “Where?”. When we ask “When?”, there is no “When?” It can be 10 million miles away. It can be in another planet. The teaching is consistent. It does not require a “Who”, a “Where”, a “When”. Condition arises, it is there. It is not stored in any place, or anywhere. This is the teaching...
...When I say that things happen, it is not like those people that subscribe to think that anything is just taking by itself, itÂ’s nature. Mainly what is important is conditions. You must have the conditions, then things can surface. When the conditions is there, they just surfaces, and manifest. If there is cause in ten million miles away or ten million light years away, or whatever it is, or in other realms, as long as there is conditions, it WILL surface, it is not travelling {inaudible}. Can you understand this part? Condition is there, they just manifest. This is one thing...
...That is there is no I, there is no Where, and there is no When. This is very important. Do not hold anything at all, then you can experience it. You see, when we talk about cause and effect, the philosopher’s cause and effect is different from what the Buddha taught. Cause and effect always involve an entity taking place at a certain date some time later... means, there is an entity, or a first cause, or something, taking a process. Means there is changing ‘things’ going through a process and after certain time interval, takes place. This seeing things as entities. Now, to experience Reality you must not see things this way...
BTW, though karma has an order, it is too complex to ponder for an ordinary being like us, therefore being one of the 4 imponderables (for ordinary ppl). Karma is also not a predeterministic system -- conditioned arising/dependent origination is not a predeterministic teaching --
-------------------Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Anyway Chaos Theory is really good. It really corresponds with Buddhism's interdependent co-arising teaching of Emptiness. Regarding this see recent thread, Net of Indra IS Dependent Origination?
Thusness says, Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective,
the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation.
David Bohm and the Implicate Order
...In the 1960s Bohm began to take a closer look at the notion of order. One day he saw a device on a television program that immediately fired his imagination. It consisted of two concentric glass cylinders, the space between them being filled with glycerin, a highly viscous fluid. If a droplet of ink is placed in the fluid and the outer cylinder is turned, the droplet is drawn out into a thread that eventually becomes so thin that it disappears from view; the ink particles are enfolded into the glycerin. But if the cylinder is then turned in the opposite direction, the thread-form reappears and rebecomes a droplet; the droplet is unfolded again. Bohm realized that when the ink was diffused through the glycerin it was not in a state of 'disorder' but possessed a hidden, or nonmanifest, order.
In Bohm's view, all the separate objects, entities, structures, and events in the visible or explicate world around us are relatively autonomous, stable, and temporary 'subtotalities' derived from a deeper, implicate order of unbroken wholeness. Bohm gives the analogy of a flowing stream:
On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices, ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent existence as such. Rather, they are abstracted from the flowing movement, arising and vanishing in the total process of the flow. Such transitory subsistence as may be possessed by these abstracted forms implies only a relative independence or autonomy of behaviour, rather than absolutely independent existence as ultimate substances....[2]
We must learn to view everything as part of 'Undivided Wholeness in Flowing Movement' [3]...
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~ The Holographic Universe -
(continued)
Dependent Origination
the isolation of a specific individual action is a conditioned perceptual action in itself. whereas a sensitive, open, honest, generous enquiry eventually reveals the indivisible continuum or matrix of activity. the unfolding of the matrix, through the agency of action, has a single governing principle: causality. the simple, and irrefutable, law of cause and effect. this law is universal. it is the order of the universe: as applicable to galaxies and stars as it is to amoebas and multicelled organisms. according to this unique principle of existence all actions are simultaneously effect and cause of all other actions. this renders all actions that have actually happened, are happening, or will happen, inextricable from their matrix, and inevitable within it.
-------------CHAOS AND HIGHER ORDER
~ A New Earth, Eckhart Tolle
When you know yourself only through content, you will also think you
know what is good or bad for you. You differentiate between events that are
“good for me” and those that are “bad.” This is a fragmented perception of
the wholeness of life in which everything is interconnected, in which every
event has its necessary place and function within the totality. The totality,
whoever, is more than the surface appearance of things, more than the sum
total of its parts, more than whatever your life or the world contains.
Behind the sometimes seemingly random or even chaotic succession
of events in our lives as well as in the world lies concealed the unfolding of a
higher order and purpose. This is beautifully expressed in the Zen saying
“The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.” We can never
understand this higher order through thinking about it because whatever we
think about is content; whereas, the higher order emanates from the formless
realm of consciousness, from universal intelligence. But we can glimpse it,
and more than that, align ourselves with it, which means be conscious
participants in the unfolding of that higher purpose.
When we go into a forest that has not been interfered with by man, our
thinking mind will see only disorder and chaos all around us. It won't even
be able to differentiate between life (good) and death (bad) anymore since
everywhere new life grows out of rotting and decaying matter. Only if we are
still enough inside and the noise of thinking subsides can we become aware
that there is a hidden harmony here, a sacredness, a higher order in which
everything has its perfect place and could not be other than what it is and the
way it is.
The mind is comfortable in a landscaped park because it has been
planned through thought; it has not grown organically. There is an order here
that the mind can understand. In the forest, there is an incomprehensible
order that to the mind looks like chaos. It is beyond the mental categories of
god and bad. You cannot understand it through thought, but you can sense it
when you let go of thought, become still and alert, and don't try to
understand or explain. Only then can you be aware of he sacredness of the
forest. As soon as you sense that hidden harmony, that sacredness, you
realize you are not separate from it, and when you realize that, you become a conscious participant in it. In this way, nature can help you become realigned with the wholeness of life.
GOOD AND BAD
At some point in their lives, most people become aware that there is
not only birth, growth, success, good health, pleasure, and winning, but also
loss, failure, sickness, old age, decay, pain and death. Conventionally these
are labeled “good” and “bad,” order and disorder. The “meaning” of people's
lives is usually associated with what they term the “good,” but the good is
continually threatened by collapse, breakdown, disorder; threatened by
meaninglessness and the “bad,” when explanations fail and life ceases to
make sense. Sooner or later, disorder will irrupt into everyone's life no
matter how many insurance policies he or she has. It may come in the form
of loss or accident, sickness, disability, old age, death. However, the
irruption of disorder into a person's life, and the resultant collapse of a
mentally defined meaning, can become the opening into a higher order.
“The wisdom of this world is folly with God,” says the Bible.3 What is
the wisdom of this world? The movement of thought, and meaning that is
defined exclusively by thought.
Thinking isolates a situation or event and calls it good or bad, as if it
had a separate existence. Through excessive reliance on thinking, reality
becomes fragmented. This fragmentation is an illusion, but it seems very real
while you are trapped in it. And yet the universe is an indivisible whole in
which all things are interconnected, in which nothing exists in isolation.
The deeper interconnectedness of all things and events implies that the
mental labels of “good” and bad” are ultimately illusory. They always imply
a limited perspective and so are true only relatively and temporarily. This is
illustrated in the story of a wise man who won an expensive car in a lottery.
His family and friends were very happy for him and came to celebrate. “Isn't
it great!” they said. “You are so lucky.” The man smiled and said “Maybe.”
For a few weeks he enjoyed driving the car. Then one day a drunken driver
crashed into his new car at an intersection and he ended up in the hospital,
with multiple injuries. His family and friends came to see him and said,
“That was really unfortunate. “ Again the man smiled and said, “Maybe.”
While he was still in the hospital, one night there was a landslide and his
house fell into the sea. Again his friends came the next day and said,
“Weren't you lucky to have been here in hospital.” Again he said, “Maybe.”
The wise man's “maybe” signifies a refusal to judge anything that
happens. Instead of judging what is, he accepts it and so enters into
conscious alignment with the higher order. He knows that often it is
impossible for the mind to understand what place or purpose a seemingly
random event has in the tapestry of the whole. But there are no random
events, nor are there events or things that exist by and for themselves, in
isolation. The atoms that make up your body were once forged inside stars,
and the causes of even the smallest event are virtually infinite and connected
with the whole in incomprehensible ways. If you wanted to trace back the
cause of any event, you would have to go back all the way to the beginning
of creation. The cosmos is not chaotic. The very word cosmos means order.
But this is not an order the human mind can ever comprehend, although it
can sometimes glimpse it. -
Can grasp only a bit of the above explanation. But get the idea of there is a higher order in the randomness of all phenomena throughout the whole universe. Such an order of happening is too complicated to be understood by any human.
As Buddha himself has mentioned in the sutras, the law of cause and effect, the endless rebirths of all living beings, why there are countless beings still suffering in 3 evil realms despite hearing that there are also countless beings achieving rebirths in heavenly states or even better, a Buddha Land. Such matters can only be fully and truly understood when one has reached full enlightenment - A Buddha. -
Have to ask AEN to copy and paste what Buddhists believe but I believe that you can be enlightened without having to reach "full enlightment - A Buddha."Originally posted by Spnw07:Can grasp only a bit of the above explanation. But get the idea of there is a higher order in the randomness of all phenomena throughout the whole universe. Such an order of happening is too complicated to be understood by any human.
As Buddha himself has mentioned in the sutras, the law of cause and effect, the endless rebirths of all living beings, the countless beings that never seem to be ever completely delivered from suffering, can only be fully and truly understood when one has reached full enlightment - A Buddha. -
I wish that were true. However, after some reflection upon my life experiences so far, I seem to somehow understand the need to seek the path of enlightenment as taught by Buddha.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Have to ask AEN to copy and paste what Buddhists believe but I believe that you can be enlightened without having to reach "full enlightment - A Buddha."
How do you know you are fully enlightened as said by Buddha? A very rough guideline is, based on my limited understanding, one would no longer need to ask himself or others what is really full enlightenment or whether one can be enlightened without having to reach full enlightenment. -
There is a difference between asking what Buddhists believe and asking oneself.Originally posted by Spnw07:A very rough guideline is, based on my limited understanding, one would no longer need to ask himself or others what is really full enlightenment or whether one can be enlightened without having to reach full enlightenment. -
Of course. There are stages of enlightenment and when one attains an initial enlightenment, he can be called enlightened, but not Enlightened (with the caps). In Buddhism, there are 10 bhumis of the Bodhisattva path, 4 stages of the path of Arhat.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Have to ask AEN to copy and paste what Buddhists believe but I believe that you can be enlightened without having to reach "full enlightment - A Buddha."
Here's an article written by our forummer Longchen from his experiences: Enlightenment is a gradual process -
any chance you can copy and paste some Buddhist scriptures on this?Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Of course. There are stages of enlightenment and when one attains an initial enlightenment, he can be called enlightened, but not Enlightened (with the caps). In Buddhism, there are 10 bhumis of the Bodhisattva path, 4 stages of the path of Arhat.
Here's an article written by our forummer Longchen from his experiences: Enlightenment is a gradual process